A Rookie 1984 Michael Jordan or a Current Kobe Bryant?

[QUOTE=StoneCold]In terms of [B][U]OVERALL[/U][/B] production, forget comparing him to MJ, he doesn't even stack up to Pippen!


[B][U]In 12 seasons for "BOTH" Kobe & Pippen[/U][/B]


[B]Steals[/B]: Pippen 1869 > kobe 1299
[B]Assists[/B]: Pippen 4737 > Kobe 3905
[B]Blocks[/B]: Pippen 802 > Kobe 501
[B]Rebounds[/B]: Pippen 5981 > Kobe 4472
[B]Points: (even with MJ as the 1st Option!)[/B] Pippen 21115 > Kobe 15713
[B]2000 Points in a season[/B] [B](Again, even with MJ as the 1st Option)[/B] Pippen 4 > Kobe 0
[B]80 game seasons[/B] Pippen 5 > Kobe 4
[B]Rings as the 2nd Option[/B]: Pippen 6 > Kobe 3[/QUOTE]

:applause:

[QUOTE=StoneCold]In terms of [B][U]OVERALL[/U][/B] production, forget comparing him to MJ, he doesn't even stack up to Pippen!


[B][U]In 12 seasons for "BOTH" Kobe & Pippen[/U][/B]

[B]Points: (even with MJ as the 1st Option!)[/B] Pippen 21115 > Kobe 15713
[B]2000 Points in a season[/B] [B](Again, even with MJ as the 1st Option[/QUOTE]

Are we talking about regular seasons here? Which seasons did Scottie score 2000 points?

[QUOTE=Voulnet]Ooops, you just popped another vein writing that point. Your blood pressure is high, and another Kobe>MJ post might give you a heart attack. :lol[/QUOTE]

More like [I][B]popped[/B][/I] the [I]"Opinion"[/I] filled balloon of another kobe homer's [B][U]UNINFORMED[/U][/B] argument..

Besides, I don't see U offering up [B][U]ANYTHING[/U][/B] other than the usual nonsensical rhetoric one tends to get from kobe homers when they can't refute what's being posted..

[QUOTE=Scott Pippen]:applause:[/QUOTE]

Scott... are the stats you're clapping about accurate?

I couldn't care less who is better out of a rookie MJ and a current KB. But I do know that posts with a ton of bold and underlining are extremely irritating to read.

[QUOTE]Points: (even with MJ as the 1st Option!) Pippen 21115 > Kobe 15713
2000 Points in a season (Again, even with MJ as the 1st Option) Pippen 4 > Kobe 0[/QUOTE]

?????

[QUOTE=Psileas]?????[/QUOTE]

Yeah, me too.

[QUOTE]Yeah but Jordan's rookie year was not in the superstar protected era Kobe played in. The game was far more physical in the 80's too.[/QUOTE]
:oldlol: superstars were protected in the 80's just as much as they are now, and the game wasn't more physical, thats just the perception people get because the league didn't frown upon hard fouls back then like it does today.
[QUOTE]That just shows Jordan had clearly better numbers so when one playr has clearly better numbers the other usually isn't clearly better.[/QUOTE]
i was aware of the numbers jordan was putting up
[QUOTE]I can't see Kobe being a top 6 player in 2000. I don't consider him top 10 that year but I could see him top 5 in 2001 and 2004.[/QUOTE]
the only players better than kobe in '00 were o'neal, garnett, duncan, webber, and payton. top 6 in '01, and top 5 in '04
[QUOTE]As for Jordan's record well look at his supporting cast and then consider Kobe was playing with the best player in the league.[/QUOTE]
already taken into consideration. jordan did have orlando woolridge, who put up 23/6 with 55%fg on a nightly basis, but besides that he had junk, but 38 wins is 38 wins. putting up stats all day long doesn't mean **** if you're losing at the end of the day. kobe was only playing with the best player in the league in 2000 and 2001.
[QUOTE]Yeah but because you are the first option the entire team is aiming to stop you.[/QUOTE]
either that or they are letting you get your points and shutting down the rest of the team
[QUOTE]Kobe played with the best player in the league so he had a far easier time getting shots because the defense couldn't aim to stop him as much as they could with Jordan. That's why Kobe shot a better % when Shaq was on the team than he did after Shaq left.[/QUOTE]
what? bryant's highest four years of TS% were the four years he's played without shaq :lol
[QUOTE]That is significant because Kobe has been better in the post Shaq era.[/QUOTE]
2003 remains to be kobe's peak. first year post shaq he was the worst he'd been since 1999, second year post shaq he was better than any year besides '03, third year post shaq he wasn't as good as he was in '00, '01, and obviously '03, and this year he was better than any year with shaq besides '03.
[QUOTE]And your point is? a 3 point shot is 23,9 not 18-20 feet.[/QUOTE]
the point is bryant had more range

[QUOTE=Scott Pippen]:applause:[/QUOTE]


That is one of the worse rebuttal in a basketball forum, and we didn't even know if he is posting some accurate facts, or just telling some Urban Legend to make us believe that Pippen is > Kobe.

[QUOTE=StoneCold]In terms of [B][U]OVERALL[/U][/B] production, forget comparing him to MJ, he doesn't even stack up to Pippen!


[B][U]In 12 seasons for "BOTH" Kobe & Pippen[/U][/B]


[B]Steals[/B]: Pippen 1869 > kobe 1299
[B]Assists[/B]: Pippen 4737 > Kobe 3905
[B]Blocks[/B]: Pippen 802 > Kobe 501
[B]Rebounds[/B]: Pippen 5981 > Kobe 4472
[B]Points: (even with MJ as the 1st Option!)[/B] Pippen 21115 > Kobe 15713
[B]2000 Points in a season[/B] [B](Again, even with MJ as the 1st Option)[/B] Pippen 4 > Kobe 0
[B]80 game seasons[/B] Pippen 5 > Kobe 4
[B]Rings as the 2nd Option[/B]: Pippen 6 > Kobe 3[/QUOTE]

I swear you made most of these up...

[QUOTE=plowking]I swear you made most of these up...[/QUOTE]

Specifically, the "total points" and "2000 points in a season" argument.

People tend to disappear when they're called on things that they post.

Pip has never scored 2,000 points in a season. Kobe has done it 5 times.

[QUOTE=Shep]:oldlol: superstars were protected in the 80's just as much as they are now, and the game wasn't more physical, thats just the perception people get because the league didn't frown upon hard fouls back then like it does today.[/QUOTE]

You honestly think Jordan got protected by the league and the reds when he first entered the league? Jordan was expected to be good but he wasn't expected to be the best ever when he was drafted. Jordan easily had to deal with tougher fouls and more contact in his rookie season.



[QUOTE]the only players better than kobe in '00 were o'neal, garnett, duncan, webber, and payton. [/QUOTE]

Throw in Grant Hill, Alonzo Mourning, Jason Kidd, Karl Malone, Vince Carter and arguably guys like Dikembe Mutombo and Michael Finley..

[QUOTE]top 6 in '01[/QUOTE]

I actually got him right around number 6 too maybe top 5. Top 5-7. Either way it's close enough.

[QUOTE]and top 5 in '04[/QUOTE]

I got him 4-6 so top 5 is fair.

[QUOTE]already taken into consideration. jordan did have orlando woolridge, who put up 23/6 with 55%fg on a nightly basis, but besides that he had junk, but 38 wins is 38 wins. putting up stats all day long doesn't mean **** if you're losing at the end of the day.[/QUOTE]

Yeah but my point is if Kobe didn't have Shaq then how mnay wins do you really think he would have had in 2000?

[QUOTE]kobe was only playing with the best player in the league in 2000 and 2001.[/QUOTE]

If you mean among 2000, 2001 and 2004 then yeah that sounds right because KG and Duncan could easily be argued as better players in 2004.

[QUOTE]either that or they are letting you get your points and shutting down the rest of the team[/QUOTE]

Yeah but teams usually made stopping Jordan did their number 1 priority.

[QUOTE]what? bryant's highest four years of TS% were the four years he's played without shaq :lol [/QUOTE]

Part of that is because he's improved as a three point shooter.

In 1999 Bryant shot 26.7% on 3's, in 2000 he shot 31.9% on 3's, in 2001 he shot 30.5% on 3's and in 2002 he shot 25.0% on 3's.

His 3P% was bringing down his TS%. Bryant's TS% probably has a lot to do with him working hard to improve his 3 point shot.

[QUOTE]2003 remains to be kobe's peak. first year post shaq he was the worst he'd been since 1999, second year post shaq he was better than any year besides '03, third year post shaq he wasn't as good as he was in '00, '01, and obviously '03, and this year he was better than any year with shaq besides '03.[/QUOTE]

I agree 2003 was his peak and I'd rank him above Shaq that year. I also agree that his second best was probably 2006 when he carried that team while averaging 35.4 ppg and this season sounds like his 3rd best. 2002 is an underrated season for Kobe because he played 80 games and was a big part of a 58 win team. Kobe also played great team basketball that year.

[QUOTE]the point is bryant had more range[/QUOTE]

Yeah, so? I was just pointing out Jordan did have range beyond 15 feet back then. Having more range also doesn't mean a lot in deciding who the better player is.

There are way too many stats in this thread. Stats have their place, but they never tell the entire story.

For people who somehow think that Kobe > MJ, do yourself a favor and find a site that sells games on DVD. Then watch some of Jordan's best games along with Kobe's best games. Your eyes will not deceive you -- the gulf between the two is very wide. And I'm saying this as a Kobe fan.

[QUOTE=Shep]no it wasn't. there was only 2 or 3 good defensive teams in the league in '85. pace was high, and with this comes increased statistics - part of the reason for jordan's numbers being higher than bryant's. teams averaged 111 ppg on 89 fga per game and shot the ball 49% from the field, with detroit leading the league with an almost inconceivable 98 fga per game, and denver averaging 120ppg. 19 years later teams averaged 93 ppg on 80 fga per game and shot the ball 44% from the field.

:confusedshrug:

games played doesn't come into discussion. are we talking about who was the better player or who had the better season? factor in pace and kobe narrows the gap in all statistical area's where he trailed mj..and sometimes he beats him. as for fg% kobe shot the ball equal to or better than the league average every year, mj was only 2% better than the league average in '85..so it wasn't a "much better %" when you think about it.
once again kobe was a far better defender than mj was at this point, including 1st team all-defense in '00, '03, and '04, and 2nd team all-defense in '01, and '02. kobe was also part of hugely successful teams, and for the years you are arguing against him he was a top 6 player in the nba each year. jordan led his team to a pitiful 38-44 record.

this means you have the ball in your hands at all times. you don't have to share the ball, and you can do what you want, when you want with the ball..especially because your team is going nowhere.

jordan shot the three ball at 17% in his rookie year..made 9 shots in 82 games, 3144 minutes. a three pointer was made by michael jordan every 349 minutes of actual court time, or every 9 games. he couldn't shoot. its a fact. most of his baskets came from isolation plays where he took his man off the dribble[/QUOTE]

you obviously don't understand how basketball works..hand checking = tougher defense..its harder to score on someone with their hands all over you...and more points doesn't equal worse defense it means more shots were taken because coaches had more trust in players to shoot better from outside..it was okay back then to come down by yourself 1 on 4 and jack up a shot because guys were better shooters