ISH All-time Top 25 Guards Project: #2 Kobe Bryant vs Magic Johnson.

[QUOTE=AlphaWolf24]
and still going.....the only thing Magic has over Kobe is Media MVP's....kobe should at minimum have 2 - 3 more League MVP's...for christ sakes Steve F'in Nash??? come on...can you say Media screwed...
[/QUOTE]

it's not really a popularity contest or media bias....the mvp generally goes to the best player on the best team in the league. kobe's most impressive statistical seasons were on laker clubs that were average at best

[QUOTE=kurt_rambis]yeah it's magic. not even that close

stats, awards, and championships aside, it basically come down to who would you rather have leading your team: magic or kobe

[B][SIZE="7"]and is anyone honestly going to pick kobe?
[/SIZE][/B]
on the jordan comparison....i mean, magic's been my favorite player since i was 9 years old, but you can't argue that he's better than mike. even if jordan didn't have more rings it'd be a nearly impossible argument

i do, however, think the 80's lakers were a better team than the 90's bulls. come at me bro[/QUOTE]


Jerry west...

I would most likely too....Longer career , more championships.....most likley when it's all said and done Kobe will have a much better career then Magic.

[QUOTE=kurt_rambis]it's not really a popularity contest or media bias....the mvp generally goes to the best player on the best team in the league. kobe's most impressive statistical seasons were on laker clubs that were average at best[/QUOTE]
Isn't it cool that no matter how good you are, that if you are surrounded by scrubbies, that you can't win the MVP award?

Makes it seem pretty useless, no?

[QUOTE=AlphaWolf24]Kobe Bryant

5X NBA Champion (2000 , 2001 , 2002 , 2009 , 2010)
2008 NBA MVP
13X NBA Allstar
9X all NBA First team
9X all NBA First Team defense
2X Finals MVP
4X NBA Allstar game MVP
1997 NBA Slam Dunk champion
2X all NBA 2nd team defense

and still going.....the only thing Magic has over Kobe is Media MVP's....kobe should at minimum have 2 - 3 more League MVP's...for christ sakes Steve F'in Nash??? come on...can you say Media screwed...

and Longevity???..Kobe Barely played his first 2 years.....



Kobe's should move past Magic.....he already has in the real world.[/QUOTE]

In those 5 championship.......how times did Kobe lead a team to the finals as the team best player?

2008 MVP is a joke. That Award had Chris Paul name written all over it.

Kobe Bryant deserves NO MVP's. I repeat NO MVP!!

[QUOTE=AlphaWolf24]Kobe Bryant

5X NBA Champion (2000 , 2001 , 2002 , 2009 , 2010)
2008 NBA MVP
13X NBA Allstar
9X all NBA First team
9X all NBA First Team defense
2X Finals MVP
4X NBA Allstar game MVP
1997 NBA Slam Dunk champion
2X all NBA 2nd team defense

and still going.....the only thing Magic has over Kobe is Media MVP's....kobe should at minimum have 2 - 3 more League MVP's...for christ sakes Steve F'in Nash??? come on...can you say Media screwed...

and Longevity???..Kobe Barely played his first 2 years.....



[B]Kobe's should move past Magic.....he already has in the real world[/B].[/QUOTE]

What real world? In the world I see, in the only world I see, Magic Johnson was better than Kobe Bryant, and the vast majority of people - both casual fans of basketball, and hardcore - would agree with me in saying that.

[I]Nobody[/I] but other Kobe stans like yourself would agree with your views. And that's the difference here.






subsequent

[QUOTE=AlphaWolf24]Jerry west...

I would most likely too....Longer career , more championships.....most likley when it's all said and done Kobe will have a much better career then Magic.[/QUOTE]

So, Bill Simmons and SLAM Magazine are just part of a warped reality?

[QUOTE=AlphaWolf24]Jerry west...

I would most likely too....Longer career , more championships.....most likley when it's all said and done Kobe will have a much better career then Magic.[/QUOTE]

likely schmikely, i'll believe it when i see it

the lakers are nearly at a rebuilding stage, and he's on the backend of his career. his stats are only going to get worse from now on, so his career averages are going to drop, further sullying his legacy

[QUOTE=Droid101]Isn't it cool that no matter how good you are, that if you are surrounded by scrubbies, that you can't win the MVP award?

Makes it seem pretty useless, no?[/QUOTE]

it's the most valuable player award, not most talented player. if you score 40 points per game but your team doesn't make the playoffs, who are you of value to?

[QUOTE=kurt_rambis]it's not really a popularity contest or media bias....the mvp generally goes to the best player on the best team in the league. kobe's most impressive statistical seasons were on laker clubs that were average at best[/QUOTE]


generally?

ok...

2009 he was the best player on the best team...

2010 he was the best player on the best team...

2001 he was the best player on the best team...



all very impressive statistical seasons.....with some of the best playoff runs ever....should have been MVP ...

next

[QUOTE=kurt_rambis]it's the most valuable player award, not most talented player. if you score 40 points per game but your team doesn't make the playoffs, who are you of value to?[/QUOTE]
This is a joke, right?

So you're saying if a dude averaged 40ppg, 9.5rpg, 8.5apg, 55% shooting, and missed the playoffs because his teammates (combined) averaged 45ppg, 15rpg, 5apg, and 31% shooting, he's not the most valuable player?

Get the **** outta here with that noise. It ain't his fault his teammates suck.

[QUOTE=JordanTime]In those 5 championship.......how times did Kobe lead a team to the finals as the team best player?

2008 MVP is a joke. That Award had Chris Paul name written all over it.

Kobe Bryant deserves NO MVP's. I repeat NO MVP!![/QUOTE]


2001

2002

2008

2009

2010

thanks for showing your hatred....now go apply yourself


next

[QUOTE=SuperPippen]What real world? In the world I see, in the only world I see, Magic Johnson was better than Kobe Bryant, and the vast majority of people - both casual fans of basketball, and hardcore - would agree with me in saying that.

[I]Nobody[/I] but other Kobe stans like yourself would agree with your views. And that's the difference here.






subsequent[/QUOTE]

Even Alpha doesn't believe what he says:

[QUOTE=AlphaWolf24]I'll give you the players that I have watched for nearly 30years...I never watched Basketball when Russell or Wilt or to familiar with any Pro Game before 1980.....these are the best players that I have watched and followed..

pretty much from 1980 till present...

[B]1.Magic[/B]
2.Jordan
[B]3.Kobe[/B]
4.Bird
5.Duncan[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=AlphaWolf24]generally?

ok...

2009 he was the best player on the best team...

2010 he was the best player on the best team...

[B]2001 he was the best player on the best team...[/B]



all very impressive statistical seasons.....with some of the best playoff runs ever....should have been MVP ...

next[/QUOTE]

Gifted Mind disagrees and many observers of the game disagree with you, strongly on that one:

[url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=157369[/url]

[QUOTE=Legends66NBA7]Even Alpha doesn't believe what he says:[/QUOTE]


yeah and Kobe is still playing.....


we are splitting hairs here...

Kobe will be ranked higher then Magic alltime...when he is done playing..






book it.





next

[QUOTE=JordanTime]In those 5 championship.......how times did Kobe lead a team to the finals as the team best player?

2008 MVP is a joke. That Award had Chris Paul name written all over it.

Kobe Bryant deserves NO MVP's. I repeat NO MVP!![/QUOTE]

:roll:

[QUOTE=Legends66NBA7]Gifted Mind disagrees and many observers of the game disagree with you, strongly on that one:

[url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=157369[/url][/QUOTE]


Shaq - "Kobe is the best player in the world" 2001

Phil Jackson - "Kobe is the best allaround player I ever coached" 2001

ESPN - "Kobe is the leagues best player at 22 years old" 2001

Kobe = 33PPG 7REB 7AST in the WCFinals (the real NBA Championship vs the Spurs)



now i respect the hard core online fan to an extent...but we are the minority here...especially 99% of the people in that thread:lol they make up about 3% of the NBA's fanbase


anyone who watches the game...knew then and knows now....kobe was absolutley the best allaround player on the 2001 Lakers....it aint even close.

alphawolf mad as hell right now :roll:

lets just move on to magic vs mike before the kobe trolls continue to bitch... magic already has the vote count

[QUOTE=Mr. I'm So Rad]:roll:[/QUOTE]
He's not making his point in a very nonbiased manner, but you could argue his point to some extent if you kept your biases out of it. I don't necessarily agree or disagree with him, but there hasn't been any one year where Kobe was far and away the best in the NBA; there's always been at least one other guy who has at least some argument to be equal and/or better.

[QUOTE=RRR3]He's not making his point in a very nonbiased manner, but you could argue his point to some extent if you kept your biases out of it. I don't necessarily agree or disagree with him, but there hasn't been any one year where Kobe was far and away the best in the NBA; there's always been at least one other guy who has at least some argument to be equal and/or better.[/QUOTE]

Girl's name in avatar, please ? :P

[QUOTE=Droid101]This is a joke, right?

So you're saying if a dude averaged 40ppg, 9.5rpg, 8.5apg, 55% shooting, and missed the playoffs because his teammates (combined) averaged 45ppg, 15rpg, 5apg, and 31% shooting, he's not the most valuable player?

Get the **** outta here with that noise. It ain't his fault his teammates suck.[/QUOTE]

you're basically describing the best player in the history world, or a serious case of stat padding. either way that fictional superman isn't a value to his team, so no he shouldn't be mvp

your beef is with the nba. tell the angel of stern to change to name of the award

[QUOTE=Boston C's]alphawolf mad as hell right now :roll:

lets just move on to magic vs mike before the kobe trolls continue to bitch... magic already has the vote count[/QUOTE]


Mad because 10 fans online think Kobe is nowhere near Magic:lol



ok


next

[QUOTE=Legends66NBA7]Girl's name in avatar, please ? :P[/QUOTE]
Go to my thread in the OTC. Join the legion! If you post in the thread I'll add more pics :D

[QUOTE=AlphaWolf24]Mad because 10 fans online think Kobe is nowhere near Magic:lol



ok


next[/QUOTE]

Dayum son, you done got goddurn more irked than a hogtied piglet stuck in the bayou! Git a gree-yip dere, boy!

[QUOTE=RRR3]He's not making his point in a very nonbiased manner, but you could argue his point to some extent if you kept your biases out of it. I don't necessarily agree or disagree with him, but there hasn't been any one year where Kobe was far and away the best in the NBA; there's always been at least one other guy who has at least some argument to be equal and/or better.[/QUOTE]

You could argue that with anyone. It depends on what you look at and value most. When it comes to basketball there are very few inarguable things

[QUOTE=Droid101]This is a joke, right?

So you're saying if a dude averaged 40ppg, 9.5rpg, 8.5apg, 55% shooting, and missed the playoffs because his teammates (combined) averaged 45ppg, 15rpg, 5apg, and 31% shooting, he's not the most valuable player?

[B]Get the **** outta here with that noise. It ain't his fault his teammates suck.[/B][/QUOTE]

Yet, Kobe still had Lamar Odom for those 3 years, Phil Jackson and the triangle offense and couldn't lead his team to more than 45 wins, the 7th seed, and past the first round.

I thought Kobe was supposed to be a leader, right ? He wanted to be the man in L.A., right ? No more being a sidekick ?

It's not all about numbers. Wilt Chamberlain didn't MVP either when he posted up 50+ppg and 25+rpg.

How you lead your teams to wins in the regular season, how you make your teammates better, how you make your teammates believe in a philosophy of your team, defensive mentality, etc.. Is what builds up the body of work for an MVP.

You want MVP ? Build up your resume, build up your teammates, domniate the league, lots of wins, be the clear cut best player on your team as well be the best team out there, etc..

[QUOTE=AlphaWolf24]generally?

ok...

2009 he was the best player on the best team...

2010 he was the best player on the best team...

2001 he was the best player on the best team...



all very impressive statistical seasons.....with some of the best playoff runs ever....should have been MVP ...

next[/QUOTE]

in none of those years did the lakers have the league's best record

and in 2001 shaq was their best player

derp

[QUOTE=Mr. I'm So Rad]You could argue that with anyone. It depends on what you look at and value most. When it comes to basketball there are very few inarguable things[/QUOTE]
There are some years it hasn't been arguable though, say with Shaq some years and MJ, Wilt, Kareem, etc.

[QUOTE=Mr. I'm So Rad]You could argue that with anyone. It depends on what you look at and value most. [B]When it comes to basketball there are very few inarguable things[/B][/QUOTE]

Which would be ?

[QUOTE=Legends66NBA7]Yet, Kobe still had Lamar Odom for those 3 years, Phil Jackson and the triangle offense and couldn't lead his team to more than 45 wins, the 7th seed, and past the first round.

I thought Kobe was supposed to be a leader, right ? He wanted to be the man in L.A., right ? No more being a sidekick ?

It's not all about numbers. Wilt Chamberlain didn't MVP either when he posted up 50+ppg and 25+rpg.

How you lead your teams to wins in the regular season, how you make your teammates better, how you make your teammates believe in a philosophy of your team, defensive mentality, etc.. Is what builds up the body of work for an MVP.

You want MVP ? Build up your resume, build up your teammates, domniate the league, lots of wins, be the clear cut best player on your team as well be the best team out there, etc..[/QUOTE]


Link to thread: [url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=235837&page=7[/url]

[QUOTE=RRR3]Link to thread: [url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=235837&page=7[/url][/QUOTE]

Oh thanks, but i already found it when you told me ;).

[QUOTE=Legends66NBA7]Oh thanks, but i already found it when you told me ;).[/QUOTE]
Post and I'll add more pics. We need to beat the ariana grande thread eventually! :banana: :banana:

[QUOTE=JordanTime]Magic Johnson is my vote.

Kobe Bryant better than Magic Johnson is a joke.

Magic Johnson

[B]5

[QUOTE=with malice]Whilst I agree that Magic ranks over Kobe, those declaring it to be "a joke" to have Kobe near him either don't watch the game with any degree of objectivity, or don't watch the game, period.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, the haters are pathetic. Anyway, Magic was never the undisputed best in the league either. In fact, he only has one year (1987) where he's the best, and it's certainly not indisputable given what Jordan/Bird did. These morons are really reaching. :oldlol:

lol @ that idiot Legend66.

[QUOTE=Yao Ming's Foot]fixed your post :oldlol:

Similar level of offensive domination... Kobe crushes Magic defensively

It's really not close at all.[/QUOTE]
All-star game mvps lol

Was Magic better than peak Shaq or Lebron? What relevance is the best player in the game tag then? We should prop up Magic for playing in a less talented league?

[QUOTE=Yao Ming's Foot]Was Magic better than peak Shaq or Lebron? What relevance is the best player in the game tag then? We should prop up Magic for playing in a less talented league?[/QUOTE]

Peak Shaq was better than Magic, Magic is better career wise though.

[QUOTE=RRR3]Peak Shaq was better than Magic, Magic is better career wise though.[/QUOTE]

If neither Magic or Kobe are better than peak Shaq why is it relevant if Kobe was or was not the best player in the game? You are basically rewarding one player for playing in a less talented league.

:facepalm [QUOTE=kurt_rambis]in none of those years did the lakers have the league's best record

and in 2001 shaq was their best player

derp[/QUOTE]


huh...they were the best team...with the best record in thier conference...many MVP's won the award without having the best overall record.


and in 2001 Kobe was far and away the lakers best [B][SIZE="4"]overall[/SIZE][/B] player...Shaq and Phil have both echoed this....ESPN ran a 5 page story saying Kobe was the[B][SIZE="4"] League's [/SIZE][/B]best player...

Kobe on top of this was voted by TNT , S.I. and Sporting News as the runaway player of the decade....but steve Nash nash more MVP's

[QUOTE=Yao Ming's Foot]fixed your post :oldlol:

Similar level of offensive domination... Kobe crushes Magic defensively

It's really not close at all.[/QUOTE]

All-Star MVP's are pretty much irrelevant. How much stock you going to put into the all-star games when they play little to no defense and is an exhibition game ?

Similar level of offensive domination my ass, there's nothing similar in their domination on offense. Kobe is a high volume scorer who can be a very deadily when he gets hot. Magic is a pass first point guard, who get's everyone involved in the offense, higher bball i.q. on offense, and more efficient guard.

Defensively ? Not much to say there. Though, Kobe's defense has been called into question over the years:

[url]http://asubstituteforwar.com/2011/05/09/kobe-bryant-the-most-overrated-defender-imaginable/[/url]

Though, I try not too look at defensive ratings or advanced stats too much I found this shocking:

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/def_rtg_career.html[/url]

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/def_rtg_career_p.html[/url]

There is virtually little difference between the two. But isn't Kobe supposed to be the one with All-Defense First Team's ? Shouldn't he be higher ? It's strange.

Really, it's not close from how I see it. Magic wins this.

Agree to Disagree.

[QUOTE=Legends66NBA7]All-Star MVP's are pretty much irrelevant. How much stock you going to put into the all-star games when they play little to no defense and is an exhibition game ?

Similar level of offensive domination my ass, there's nothing similar in their domination on offense. Kobe is a high volume scorer who can be a very deadily when he gets hot. Magic is a pass first point guard, who get's everyone involved in the offense, higher bball i.q. on offense, and more efficient guard.

Defensively ? Not much to say there. Though, Kobe's defense has been called into question over the years:

[url]http://asubstituteforwar.com/2011/05/09/kobe-bryant-the-most-overrated-defender-imaginable/[/url]

Though, I try not too look at defensive ratings or advanced stats too much I found this shocking:

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/def_rtg_career.html[/url]

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/def_rtg_career_p.html[/url]

There is virtually little difference between the two. But isn't Kobe supposed to be the one with All-Defense First Team's ? Shouldn't he be higher ? It's strange.

Really, it's not close from how I see it. Magic wins this.

Agree to Disagree.[/QUOTE]

Post in the thread son! Come on now.