prime dirk vs current durant?

[QUOTE=Pointguard]When you play on a defensive team where guys can hold down all time greats on their own and you need clutch shooting because your clutch shooter is off isn't a question as to who is better. I'd take Terry everytime.

:lol You're pathetic. But at least you are persistently consistent pathetic.

Than who bozo? Well here's the deal, in the playoffs if you stop the superstars the rest will fall in line.

Whoopde dam Dooo.

hahaha, no not in 2006... Wade couldn't take over and KD scored a lot when games were out of reach and almost devoid when the games got close. So what else didn't happen?[/QUOTE]

Stop dancing around. It's all you do...pathetic.

There is no argument for Terry being better than Gasol...none

The rest is more BS...take a look at the production above combined with good but not great defense...

seriously...let's look at the defenses that have won the title lately

Heat in 13 and 12 were better...
Lakers in 10 were worse
Lakers in 09 were better...
Celtics in 08 were better
Spurs in 07 were better
Heat in 06 were better
Spurs in 05 were better
Pistons in 04 were better
Spurs in 03 were better
Lakers in 02 were better
Lakers in 01 were better

Seriously...all of those teams had significantly better defensive metrics in the playoffs

Take the 06 Heat for example...playing in a year with joke rules defensively really. Held opponents in the playoffs to around 46% efg and had a 102 defensive rating. Mavs held teams to around 49% efg and had a 106 defensive rating. LOL...

The 09 Lakers held teams to around 47%efg and had around a 103 defensive rating.

We just weren't that good defensively. But we were special offensively with Dirk on the floor. I can't quite remember, but I think while Dirk was on the floor...the Mavs had the highest rated offense by any team to win the title of the era.

So LOL...we had arguably the best offense...and outside of the 10 Lakers...probably the worst defense...certainly a defense no better than any of the others.

Again...don't you hate facts?

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Stop dancing around. It's all you do...pathetic.

[B]There is no argument for Terry being better than Gasol...none[/B]

The rest is more BS...take a look at the production above combined with good but not great defense...[/QUOTE]
Wait........


WHAT??? :wtf:


Is this actually being discussed? :roll:

[QUOTE=NumberSix]Wait........


WHAT??? :wtf:


Is this actually being discussed? :roll:[/QUOTE]

Yes. He said 11 Terry was one of the best 2nd options...better than Gasol.

And what makes it even better...he claims individual defense is extremely important. Terry, is one of the worst perimeter defenders in the league...he's atrocious. He is a net negative...his teams always get noticeably better on defense when he's out of the game.

Yep...you heard it right. 11 Terry was better than 10 Gasol...rofl

[QUOTE=Pointguard]Tyson Chandler was the only starter missing. That definitely not a completely different roster. Starters are considered the core.

I spelled it out for you. I said the names of the PFs. Why are you talking about the top ten?

Dirk was not mentioned with the players I NAMED before 2011.[/QUOTE]

Stevenson was gone too. Lamar Odom experiment failed and probably was distraction for that team to overcome.


As for the PF thing, we just have different ways to look at it. I certainly don't think Nowtizki joined that class in 2011. Joined it much before and the 11 run helped it out further.

[QUOTE=Random_Guy]Who would you take?[/QUOTE]

I would take ... both. What do I win?

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]
[B]And again. They played good, but hardly great defense. Had about a 106 defensive rating in the playoffs...just not special overall. [/B] That is just meh at best historically for title winning teams. There was a reason they were 20 to 1 underdogs and it wasn't because of "Dirk" like you said...[/QUOTE]
Cmon man.. you know this isnt genuine. You're only looking at how their team defense played and not how individual matchups were affected.

Lebron's numbers got squashed because of great individual defense from Shawn Marion and partly Tyson. Kobe's numbers were squashed because of Kidd and Marion. Durant was locked down by Marion in crunchtime big time. As far as individual defensive matchups go, stars on the opposing teams were being locked down by Mavs defenders.

And the individual defensive battles that were won had a HUGE impact on the outcomes of the games. If you knock Bron off his game.. I dont care what your team defensive rating is at the end of it.. you're going to have a much higher chance of winning.

You can give credit for Dirk knocking Aldridge off his game in the first round I guess.. but Marion/Kidd deserve even more credit for knocking Kobe, Durant, and Lebron off their games because if they didnt do that, [B]Dirk's offense would not have been enough. [/B]

Lebron 27/7 51FG --> 18/7 48FG
Durant 28/3 46FG --> 28/4 43FG
Kobe 25/5 45FG --> 23/2 46FG

And on top of all their offensive averages being worse, all three of these guys got shutdown in the clutch.. bad. Kobe was bricking potential gamewinners, Lebron was too scared to even shoot them, and KD could barely get his shot off. These guys were all knocked off their games when playing the mavs.. and that matters a ton when looking at their defense. It definitely was a huge reason they won.

[QUOTE=tpols]Cmon man.. you know this isnt genuine. You're only looking at how their team defense played and not how individual matchups were affected.

Lebron's numbers got squashed because of great individual defense from Shawn Marion and partly Tyson. Kobe's numbers were squashed because of Kidd and Marion. Durant was locked down by Marion in crunchtime big time. As far as individual defensive matchups go, stars on the opposing teams were being locked down by Mavs defenders.

And the individual defensive battles that were won had a HUGE impact on the outcomes of the games. If you knock Bron off his game.. I dont care what your team defensive rating is at the end of it.. you're going to have a much higher chance of winning.

You can give credit for Dirk knocking Aldridge off his game in the first round I guess.. but Marion/Kidd deserve even more credit for knocking Kobe, Durant, and Lebron off their games because if they didnt do that, [B]Dirk's offense would not have been enough. [/B][/QUOTE]
:applause:

[QUOTE=tpols]Cmon man.. you know this isnt genuine. You're only looking at how their team defense played and not how individual matchups were affected.

Lebron's numbers got squashed because of great individual defense from Shawn Marion and partly Tyson. Kobe's numbers were squashed because of Kidd and Marion. Durant was locked down by Marion in crunchtime big time. As far as individual defensive matchups go, stars on the opposing teams were being locked down by Mavs defenders.

And the individual defensive battles that were won had a HUGE impact on the outcomes of the games. If you knock Bron off his game.. I dont care what your team defensive rating is at the end of it.. you're going to have a much higher chance of winning.

You can give credit for Dirk knocking Aldridge off his game in the first round I guess.. but Marion/Kidd deserve even more credit for knocking Kobe, Durant, and Lebron off their games because if they didnt do that, [B]Dirk's offense would not have been enough. [/B][/QUOTE]

Total strawman.

Of course Dirk's offense would not have been enough with no defense at all. Have you ever thought about the defense not being enough without Dirk's great offense?

One was special...and that was Dirk's offensive impact on the team (115 rating) which I'm pretty sure was the best by the first option on a team that won the title since 2011. And one was good, but not great. It was situationally great at times, but overall...it was one of the weaker defenses that won the title. You can blame that weaker defense on Dirk, and that is fine, but don't call it a great defense. It wasn't.

Almost every other team that won the title held teams to worse overall efficiency from the field and had better defensive metrics.

It absolutely is genuine and your post is attacking something that doesn't exist. Nobody is saying that Dirk wins without help...nobody is saying the team defense wasn't important or really good. It just wasn't actually great historically the way PG has said on here. Like I said above, for example, the Lakers in 09 simply played better defense overall than the Mavs did in 11.

Like the Lakers shutting down Howard in the finals. He averaged 15 ppg in the finals. Down from 21 in the regular season..and he was at like 23 ppg going into the finals on like 64% shooting...He shot 48% in the finals. Carmelo averaged like 27 on 41% fg and 25% 3. Before that in the playoffs he was doing like 27 on 48% fg and 48% 3...

The point is that you could do this with so many teams. Does Kobe get no credit? It's not like he did much to the defense...the defense actually got slightly better with him off the floor. Why does Dirk get no credit? Not only did the teams defense get better when he was on the floor, but the opposing pf's did nothing against us all playoffs...well, LA killed us until Rick made the switch. So he improves the defense, improves the defensive rebounding...and the opposing pf's did nothing. Sorry, you can't just pretend Dirk had no impact on the defense...he factually did.

Kobe's offense would not have been enough. I say that as a fact, but why would that be a knock on Kobe? His offense and play was still by far the most important thing for those Lakers teams...

Dirk needing a good, but not great defense and a good, but not great 2nd option is not a knock on him. Virtually every team of the era that has won the title played as good or better defense other than the 2010 Lakers...and every team had a clear cut better 2nd option than Terry other than the 03 Spurs.

Seriously...this was the help...right here;

Terry 18/2/3
Kidd 9/5/7
Marion 12/6/2
Chandler 8/9/0
Barea 9/2/3
Peja 7/2/0
Stevenson 5/1/1
Haywood 3/4/0

And pretending these guys formulated a defense like the 04 Pistons or some of the great Spurs defenses is simply false.


So I'm just trying to figure it all out. Knowing that you are a Kobe stan...lets look at this;

28/8/3 61% TS vs 30/5/6 56% TS

Statistically, Kobe had less of an impact on his teams defense...and the Lakers held opposing teams to lower overall efficiency and held a higher defensive rating in the playoffs than the 11 Mavs did.

Furthermore, the Lakers didn't have to play as many close games as the Mavs did.

[B]Here is what they did in crunch time per 36 minutes;

Kobe - 34 points on 41/25/85 shooting splits 54.3% TS...6-4 record in those games

Dirk - 48 points on 54/60/97 shooting splits 77% TS...11-5 record in those games[/B]

Like...should we really ignore the bold and pretend it didn't happen?

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]
It absolutely is genuine and your post is attacking something that doesn't exist. [B]Nobody is saying that Dirk wins without help...nobody is saying the team defense wasn't important or really good. It just wasn't actually great historically the way PG has said on here.[/B] Like I said above, for example, the Lakers in 09 simply played better defense overall than the Mavs did in 11.

Like the Lakers shutting down Howard in the finals. He averaged 15 ppg in the finals. Down from 21 in the regular season..and he was at like 23 ppg going into the finals on like 64% shooting...He shot 48% in the finals. Carmelo averaged like 27 on 41% fg and 25% 3. Before that in the playoffs he was doing like 27 on 48% fg and 48% 3...

And pretending these guys formulated a defense like the 04 Pistons or some of the great Spurs defenses is simply false.
[/QUOTE]
But it was to the bolded. Marion/Kidd/Chandler collectively shut down 3 superstars in a row with great individual defensive stands.

Dwight isnt Lebron offensively.. it's not even close. Melo isnt Durant or Kobe.. again not close. The Lakers didn't win because they were shutting down individual matchups on a consistent basis. They won because they had the best frontline and best player in every series they played. Those were their two strengths.

The Mavericks won because a) their individual defenders shut down the other teams superstar for three rounds in a row and b) Dirk going off in the clutch. Both were equally as important. Just like Kobe isnt winning without his frontline, Dirk isnt winning without his individual defenders having a all time great defensive stand.

[B]The main difference here is that everyone acknowledges Kobe's help as being great.. you still dont acknowledge that how the Mavs players performed was great as well.[/B] You keep listing names and offensive stats and brush aside important things like lockdown defense as 'eh it was good'. Sorry man.. not true. It was instrumental and one of the most important things in the entire run.

Dont pull any more team defense stats when were talking about matchups.. and even worse, dont pull out the Dirk's on off impact on defense when he sat with Tyson on the bench for the majority of his on off minutes. Your use of stats is utterly useless sometimes.

[QUOTE=tpols]But it was to the bolded. Marion/Kidd/Chandler collectively shut down 3 superstars in a row with great individual defensive stands.

Dwight isnt Lebron offensively.. it's not even close. Melo isnt Durant or Kobe.. again not close. The Lakers didn't win because they were shutting down individual matchups on a consistent basis. They won because they had the best frontline and best player in every series they played. Those were their two strengths.

The Mavericks won because a) their individual defenders shut down the other teams superstar for three rounds in a row and b) Dirk going off in the clutch. Both were equally as important. Just like Kobe isnt winning without his frontline, Dirk isnt winning without his individual defenders having a all time great defensive stand.

[B]The main difference here is that everyone acknowledges Kobe's help as being great.. you still dont acknowledge that how the Mavs players performed was great as well.[/B] You keep listing names and offensive stats and brush aside important things like lockdown defense as 'eh it was good'. Sorry man.. not true. It was instrumental and one of the most important things in the entire run.

Dont pull any more team defense stats when were talking about matchups.. and even worse, dont pull out the Dirk's on off impact on defense when he sat with Tyson on the bench for the majority of his on off minutes. Your use of stats is utterly useless sometimes.[/QUOTE]

Lets try this on. 09 Melo was definitely on par with 11 Durant...and 09 Melo was definitely better than 11 Kobe. Sorry. 09 Melo in the playoffs was a beast...best ball he's ever played by far. The fact that you think 11 Kobe was better offensively and it's not close just shows how ignorant you are.

The stats are important. Dirk played plenty of time without Chandler. In fact, he played at least 7 minutes per game without Chandler...and that is if Chandler was never on the court when Dirk was off. So most likely...Dirk was on the court between 9 and 10 minutes a game without Chandler...that is roughly 25% of on court time. Ouch...facts hurting your arguments again.

You also fail to talk about Wade absolutely shredding us in the finals. Funny how you miss that...right?

I don't even know your point now. I'm not saying Dirk won alone...I never have. But if you want me to say that what Dirk brought to the table was not clearly the most important cog in the Mavs machine...I won't. What Dirk did was the most important...it was more important than anything else that happened. And the defense overall was simply not as good as you say. I've showed you the actual ****ing data...you are just running to bias from watching Lebron and Kobe struggle. Was Dirk's help great? Well...no...not at all for title winning teams. It was below average actually for title winning teams. Terry is a historically weak 2nd option and the team defense was absolutely nothing special for title winning teams. It was a really good team that got hot and saw their best player play at a level in close games not seen since MJ...



And again you don't give Dirk any credit. He improved the defense, played very good individual defense at his position, and improved the defensive rebounding...and he made no impact? LOL

You can't just run to Chandler to explain everything. You do realize that Chandler only played 32 mpg...right?

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Lets try this on. 09 Melo was definitely on par with 11 Durant...and 09 Melo was definitely better than 11 Kobe. Sorry. 09 Melo in the playoffs was a beast...best ball he's ever played by far. The fact that you think 11 Kobe was better offensively and it's not close just shows how ignorant you are.

The stats are important. Dirk played plenty of time without Chandler. In fact, he played at least 7 minutes per game without Chandler...and that is if Chandler was never on the court when Dirk was off. So most likely...Dirk was on the court between 9 and 10 minutes a game without Chandler...that is roughly 25% of on court time. Ouch...facts hurting your arguments again.

You also fail to talk about Wade absolutely shredding us in the finals. Funny how you miss that...right?

I don't even know your point now. I'm not saying Dirk won alone...I never have. But if you want me to say that what Dirk brought to the table was not clearly the most important cog in the Mavs machine...I won't. What Dirk did was the most important...it was more important than anything else that happened. And the defense overall was simply not as good as you say. I've showed you the actual ****ing data...you are just running to bias from watching Lebron and Kobe struggle. Was Dirk's help great? Well...no...not at all for title winning teams. It was below average actually for title winning teams. Terry is a historically weak 2nd option and the team defense was absolutely nothing special for title winning teams. It was a really good team that got hot and saw their best player play at a level in close games not seen since MJ...

And again you don't give Dirk any credit. He improved the defense, played very good individual defense at his position, and improved the defensive rebounding...and he made no impact? LOL

You can't just run to Chandler to explain everything. You do realize that Chandler only played 32 mpg...right?[/QUOTE]
I disagree with your assessment on Melo.. but its besides the point. You cant say vanything about Lebron versus Dwight offensively. Wade? Sure he stepped it up in the Finals.. except in the last two games when Kidd held him to 42% shooting and shut him down in the clutch.. No coincidence Dallas won those games while Dirk was shooting 18/45 from the floor including a never talked about 9 for 27 close out game.:oldlol:


Overall? LA wasnt shutting down premier talent over and over like the Mavs were. Kobe-->Durant-->Lebron is a lot more impressive than Melo(who was shutdown on the perimeter.. where Kobe plays.. not like Dirk had any hand at all in stopping Durant/Kobe/Bron)-->Dwight(whose offensive game has been completely exposed in recent years anyways).


Just admit it.. Mavs indivudal defensive assignments were CRITICAL in them winning. Why is it so hard for only you to accept?

[QUOTE=tpols]I disagree with your assessment on Melo.. but its besides the point. You cant say vanything about Lebron versus Dwight offensively. Wade? Sure he stepped it up in the Finals.. except in the last two games when Kidd held him to 42% shooting and shut him down in the clutch.. No coincidence Dallas won those games while Dirk was shooting 18/45 from the floor including a never talked about 9 for 27 close out game.:oldlol:


Overall? LA wasnt shutting down premier talent over and over like the Mavs were. Kobe-->Durant-->Lebron is a lot more impressive than Melo(who was shutdown on the perimeter.. where Kobe plays.. not like Dirk had any hand at all in stopping Durant/Kobe/Bron)-->Dwight(whose offensive game has been completely exposed in recent years anyways).


Just admit it.. Mavs indivudal defensive assignments were CRITICAL in them winning. Why is it so hard for only you to accept?[/QUOTE]


I'm not saying the defense wasn't important. I'm saying that it was routine for all championship teams to play defense like that. And no...I'm not denying how important it was. But what you are doing is ignoring that championship teams routinely play better defense than the 11 Mavs did. You talked about Kobe's frontcourt in 09...but you fail to realize the team defense they played at least as good as the Mavs in 11 overall. You can't just remove Kobe from it...Kobe made an impact on the defense...you essentially are doubling up on Dirk pretending he just does nothing. It just doesn't work that way...it would be like me saying that Kobe needed a better defense, better front court, better 2nd option, better coaching...etc. It's doubling up. It's built in to the front court talk...the defense of the Mavs, for starters, wasn't as good...and Dirk impacted it whether you like it or not.

09 Melo was clearly better than 11 Kobe in the playoffs. It's not ****ing debatable. And limiting an interior player is no more or less valuable than limiting a perimeter player. The Lakers shut Howard down compared to what he was doing before. I never said it was harder to shut him down than Lebron...I was just giving you more examples.

The defense the Mavs played was very good...it just wasn't great and it wasn't as important as Dirk. It's not hard. Seriously...go down the list...it's actually one of the overall weaker defenses in the playoffs to win the title.

And I love how you just shrug off Wade like he didn't go nuts the first 4 games and then got hurt luckily.

But again...my issue isn't with giving the defense credit. It was very important. the issue is pretending like Dirk did nothing to help it...which is just factually false no matter how hard you try.

Tpols...you constantly talk out of your ass...and got caught as usual.

Are you willing to retract the following statements?

1. 11 Kobe was easily better than 09 Melo offensively in the playoffs...can't wait to hear this one...

[B]Kobe 23/3/3 on 53.6% TS vs Melo 27/6/4 56.4% TS, but yep...Kobe was definitely better and it wasn't close...dat tpols logic...[/B]

2. That Dirk never played without Chandler...I showed you that he was probably playing between 8 to 10 minutes a game without him...roughly 25% of his time on the court...and the Mavs defense got better with Dirk out there...it's a ****ing fact


This is what is really going on. It's a bunch of people that were wrong about Dirk and hate admitting that...so they have to come up with reasons why the Mavs won and exclude Dirk. You have to ignore that the Mavs literally fell apart on offense without Dirk in the games in the playoffs...if these guys were so good...why couldn't they do anything on offense without Dirk? 115 offensive rating with Dirk on the floor...101.8 with him out. ROFL...that is horrible. But he wasn't as important as the defense he improved by being on the floor. A 104.8 defensive rating with Dirk...108.4 rating without him. So you have to ignore all that stuff and pretend like a guy averaging 18/2/3 and a center playing good defense averaging 8/9/1 and a few other solid role players constitutes this amazing, never before seen, type team. When in reality...the 11 Mavs supporting cast was ho hum for a title winner...towards the bottom when you factor in competition level vs team strength...

These are strawmans but theyre too easy so Ill respond..

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]
1. 11 Kobe was easily better than 09 Melo offensively in the playoffs...can't wait to hear this one...

[B]Kobe 23/3/3 on 53.6% TS vs Melo 27/6/4 56.4% TS, but yep...Kobe was definitely better and it wasn't close...dat tpols logic...[/B][/QUOTE]

You're using a small sample of stats where Kobe was shut down by individual lockdown maverick defense that I have been advocating for all along to prove YOUR point? Checkmate?:oldlol:


[QUOTE=DMAVS41]
2. That Dirk never played without Chandler...I showed you that he was probably playing between 8 to 10 minutes a game without him...roughly 25% of his time on the court..[B].and the Mavs defense got better with Dirk out there.[/B]..[/QUOTE]
And the other 75% of the time he's with Chandler??

Like I said, Chandler and Dirk are intertwined in the defensive on/off for 75% of Dirk's play.. your stats are literally meaningless.


And Dirk did NOTHING to slow down Kobe/Durant/Wade/Lebron.. literally nothing. It was Tyson/Kidd/Marion that were carrying that load. And they consistently shut down the superstars.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]
2. That Dirk never played without Chandler...
.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=tpols]
Dont pull any more team defense stats when were talking about matchups.. and even worse, dont pull out the Dirk's on off impact on defens[B]e when he sat with Tyson on the bench for the majority of his on off minutes[/B]. Your use of stats is utterly useless sometimes.[/QUOTE]

Another DMAVs strawman.. I didnt say Dirk never played without Tyson.. I said the majority. And I was right. 75% of the time would constitute that.

Fvck off dude.

[QUOTE=tpols]These are strawmans but theyre too easy so Ill respond..



You're using a small sample of stats where Kobe was shut down by individual lockdown maverick defense that I have been advocating for all along to prove YOUR point? Checkmate?:oldlol:



And the other 75% of the time he's with Chandler??

Like I said, Chandler and Dirk are intertwined in the defensive on/off for 75% of Dirk's play.. your stats are literally meaningless.


And Dirk did NOTHING to slow down Kobe/Durant/Wade/Lebron.. literally nothing. It was Tyson/Kidd/Marion that were carrying that load. And they consistently shut down the superstars.[/QUOTE]

Not strawmans at all you ****ing moron. 25% is a lot of time to be on the court without the guy that apparently is the only reason Dirk has good defensive measures. Again...the defense improves while Dirk is on the floor. Why doesn't the same thing impact Terry? He's on the floor about 75% of the time with Chandler...yet the defense gets 3 points worse for him. The fact is that Dirk helped the defense...that is my point. And it's clear that the best defenders, using the same criteria, were Chandler, Kidd, and Marion. There is a reason why the defense gets worse when certain guys are on the court. Again...whether you want to admit it or not, the Mavs played good defense with Dirk on the floor. He played the most minutes out of anyone on the team...and made all the impacts I've talked about. Pretending he's JJ Barea or Terry on defense is a joke. Dirk was a positive impact defender on the Mavs...not to mention we haven't discussed your logic last time about how great offensive players allow role players to do their jobs...when you argued for Rose's offense making the defense better. Dirk does that in spades...and happens to improve the defense while he's on the floor.

Now...on to Kobe. Uhhh...no.

Kobe vs the Hornets in round 1:

23/4/4 on 43/37/83

Kobe vs the Mavs:

23/3/3 on 46/23/80

ROFL...yes, it was the Mavs all time great defense that did it. He didn't average virtually the same production in the round before. Holy shit you are a joke. Checkmate? Seriously...what the **** is wrong with you? You can't be this stupid...

And honestly...Kobe's numbers are even better than that because his only shit game was really the game 4 blowout in which Kobe and the Lakers quit. He dropped 36 in game 1 of that series by the way...in case you forgot.

But again you just talk out of your ass. It wasn't the Mavs...he came into the Mavs series essentially averaging what he did during the series...with a game 4 blowout mixed in...LOL

Let me guess...the Hornets also had an unreal defense...right?


And god damnit...stop saying we slowed down Wade. We didn't. A player averaging 27/7/5 on 55% shooting is not slowing a player down. The sad thing...is that it was even worse than that as his play fell off dramatically after his injury. Seriously...you can't just make shit up;

Kobe played just the same he did in his first series...and Wade went off...way better than he was against anyone in the East. Dude averaged 24/7/5 49%fg for the playoffs...with the Mavs series counted. That means he was at like 23/7/5 46% shooting before our series.

So two of the 4 guys you constantly list either played the same (Kobe)...or got noticeably better.

Checkmate?

Whoa??!!! This debate is still going on????

[QUOTE=tpols]Another DMAVs strawman.. I didnt say Dirk never played without Tyson.. I said the majority. And I was right. 75% of the time would constitute that.

Fvck off dude.[/QUOTE]

You dont' get it. The team wouldn't be getting better on defense with Dirk being out there if he didn't make a positive impact on defense. See...Haywood would come in for those minutes often...and the Mavs on court defensive rating for him was 112...and he played 15 mpg. That isn't something to scoff at...it's almost a third of the game. And the defense got noticeably worse with Barea and Peja coming into the game. If Dirk wasn't a positive impact defender...there is no way the team could have kept it's defense solid with the likes of Terry, Barea, ...Peja. Peja and Barea were playing like 19 mpg and Terry was playing 33.

Look...it was obvious to anyone watching that Kidd, Marion, and Chandler were the key defenders. Stevenson play really solid in his minutes as well. But Haywood was hurt and didn't play all that great defense...and the above guys I mentioned just play shit defense...the team got worse with them on the court...and they spent a lot of time on the court.

So it's just virtually impossible for Dirk (if he's a poor defender) to improve the team defense when he's on the court vs off it...given all that. You can't give that much credit to 1 player...playing only 32 minutes per game. How the **** did the Mavs do it the other 16 mpg? Shit...our defense was really bad when Haywood was on the court. We didn't have another big that played any meaningful minutes.

This is why I said the defense was good, but not great. We weren't that good unless Chandler was out there. We were even worse when Chandler was missing and Kidd/Marion were out as well.

If Dirk hurt the Mavs defense. Playing him 40 mpg, along with Terry 33, and 19 each for Barea and Peja...you simply could not have the numbers show what they show. Not only that, but Dirk was the player on our team spending the most time out there playing against the other teams best players and lineups.

You need to understand that Chandler was missing for 16 minutes a game. He only played 2/3 of each game. Marion as well.

This wasn't ****ing prime KG anchoring a defense for like 42 minutes a game. Far from it.

**** off moron.

[B]Oh, just found it. Chandler was on the floor only 67% of the time Dirk was on the floor. that means 33% of the time Dirk was out there...he was without Chandler. Dirk was out there 20% of the time with Haywood at center. Considering the defensive rating of Haywood...and the fact that Haywood played 60% of his minutes with Dirk...it gets virtually impossible to claim Dirk didn't help the defense and give Chandler all the credit.

In addition to the above, the 3rd most used lineup by the mavs in the playoffs was Dirk, Haywood, Barea, Peja, and Terry...[/B]

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Yes. He said 11 Terry was one of the best 2nd options...better than Gasol.

And what makes it even better...he claims individual defense is extremely important. Terry, is one of the worst perimeter defenders in the league...he's atrocious. He is a net negative...his teams always get noticeably better on defense when he's out of the game.

Yep...you heard it right. 11 Terry was better than 10 Gasol...rofl[/QUOTE]



LOOOOLLLLLLLL another Kobetard downplaying Pau in 2008-2010 to make Kobe look better.

[QUOTE=Solefade]LOOOOLLLLLLLL another Kobetard downplaying Pau in 2008-2010 to make Kobe look better.[/QUOTE]

the best part of it is that he rails on Dirk for only being a scorer...saying overall play is much better.

it's why he says Durant is better than prime Dirk..his overall play.

Then, literally 6 posts later.

He says that Terry was better than peak Gasol

That a 18/2/3 player that plays shit defense is better than a 21/11/4 player that plays quality interior defense.

He, of course, left the thread when this was pointed out...:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Stop dancing around. It's all you do...pathetic.

There is no argument for Terry being better than Gasol...none

The rest is more BS...take a look at the production above combined with good but not great defense...

seriously...let's look at the defenses that have won the title lately

Heat in 13 and 12 were better...
Lakers in 10 were worse
Lakers in 09 were better...
Celtics in 08 were better
Spurs in 07 were better
Heat in 06 were better
Spurs in 05 were better
Pistons in 04 were better
Spurs in 03 were better
Lakers in 02 were better
Lakers in 01 were better

Seriously...all of those teams had significantly better defensive metrics in the playoffs [/quote]
I already explained this to you. The metrics doen't mean a thing. If you confuse, isolate or befuddle the leader you don't have to worry about the other metrics. Miami only went after Rose in the previous series. Dallas only needed to go after Lebron and contain Wade. They played man to man and then went hard at Durant near the end of games. The metrics were inferior to that quest.

No leader no win:

Khengis Khan had the best offensive ground army ever. They won thousands of battles without defeat. The metrics were phenomenal. Now without Khan(s) that same army began loosing battles left and right. Same mechanics, same offense, same warring ways. Get the leader and the chips will fall.

Great defenses accomplish great feats.

[QUOTE=NumberSix]Wait........

WHAT??? :wtf:

Is this actually being discussed? :roll:[/QUOTE]

Terry has value like Dirk has value - they score timely baskets. The team covered all the other duties. They needed a guy to score timely buckets and not much else.

Its funny Dirk can be a top twenty GOAT in your guys GOAT list for his ability to score in a timely way in the playoffs. Terry was not only a much more efficient scorer in the crucial finals games (btw, both times), he was nearly as productive. In the loses there is a big difference, but in the wins and crucial games, he is very close to equal.

Terry made more baskets and three pointers shooting 20 shots less in the last three games.

Terry shot 25 for 43 a 58% clip for 22 ppg
Dirk shot. 24 for 64 a 37.5% clip for 25.6 ppg

In the four finals wins:
30/54 555% for Terry
34/86 395% for Dirk

Or thirty more shots for four more baskets. In the '06 finals, in the last three games its very similar to what is above.

Who was the most consistent scorer on Dallas in their Finals wins? I want you to answer that. Who was the most efficient scorer?

Wouldn't it make more sense that Pau Gasol would come in and replace Dirk? But the Dallas team didn't need more rebounds, defense or good interior passing. They just needed more timely buckets.

[QUOTE=Pointguard][B]Terry has value like Dirk has value [/B]- they score timely baskets. The team covered all the other duties. They needed a guy to score timely buckets and not much else.

Its funny Dirk can be a top twenty GOAT in your guys GOAT list for his ability to score in a timely way in the playoffs. Terry was not only a much more efficient scorer in the crucial finals games (btw, both times), he was nearly as productive. In the loses there is a big difference, but in the wins and crucial games, he is very close to equal.

Terry made more baskets and three pointers shooting 20 shots less in the last three games.

Terry shot 25 for 43 a 58% clip for 22 ppg
Dirk shot. 24 for 64 a 37.5% clip for 25.6 ppg

In the four finals wins:
30/54 555% for Terry
34/86 395% for Dirk

Or thirty more shots for four more baskets. In the '06 finals, in the last three games its very similar to what is above.

Who was the most consistent scorer on Dallas in their Finals wins? I want you to answer that. Who was the most efficient scorer?

Wouldn't it make more sense that Pau Gasol would come in and replace Dirk? But the Dallas team didn't need more rebounds, defense or good interior passing. They just needed more timely buckets.[/QUOTE]


:biggums: I think that just kills all your credibility in this arguement

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]
The rest is more BS...take a look at the production above combined with good but not great defense...

seriously...let's look at the defenses that have won the title lately

Heat in 13 and 12 were better...
Lakers in 10 were worse
Lakers in 09 were better...
Celtics in 08 were better
Spurs in 07 were better
Heat in 06 were better
Spurs in 05 were better
Pistons in 04 were better
Spurs in 03 were better
Lakers in 02 were better
Lakers in 01 were better
[/quote]
Dirk averaged 26 ppg in the finals. Thats not enough to say his offense was great. It simply isn't. When you consider that the team he faced had a guy average 9 more ppg before his prime do it. And another guy that would go on to average 3 more ppg than that the next year. Almost every year you mentioned that had a great scorer, someone scored more than 26ppg. It was very good but definitely not enough to claim it was worth more than the defense.

If Dirk's offense won the series then he simply outscores Wade and he didn't even accomplish that. To say his offense was as much as the Dallas defense doesn't make sense.

:facepalm Dirk won it all by himself this Dmavs guy is full of himself and giving little credit to his teammates even playing by the numbers and yet has no numbers showing that dirk was a great defensively while kidd marion chandler controlled the numbers of the opponent .. i am not saying that dirk is bad defensively but to just simply put that he won it all offensively is meaningless because its their defense and offense that won the ring dirk had a workload on offense but his team mates played better defensively even if chandler wasnt there a washed out haywood played a big role as well.

he is trying to prove a point to simply put dirk over kg just because he plays defense :facepalm

[QUOTE=Black and White]:biggums: I think that just kills all your credibility in this arguement[/QUOTE]
No offense but you can't read. Refute what is written in the next line. Back yourself up rather than these horrible one liners that prove you didn't even read the next line.

You simply can't say Dirk scores like the other top scorers do. He doesn't lead the league in scoring, he doesn't get 27ppg, he doesn't get in the top three of scoring. But he has been getting more timely baskets and that's his claim to fame - along with playoff scoring. Both of which I showed that Terry has done.

[QUOTE=Pointguard]No offense but you can't read. Refute what is written in the next line. Back yourself up rather than these horrible one liners that prove you didn't even read the next line.

You simply can't say Dirk scores like the other top scorers do. He doesn't lead the league in scoring, he doesn't get 27ppg, he doesn't get in the top three of scoring. But he has been getting more timely baskets and that's his claim to fame - along with playoff scoring. Both of which I showed that Terry has done.[/QUOTE]

Tbh i think youe being a little narrow minded when it comes to Dirk if you think that all he does is make timely baskets, he does much more than that, he is a floor leader, he can create shots (something the great scorers do), has one of the best midrange games, he was the driving force behind the whole mavs unit,

But to your credit the whole team did step up tho, but they wouldn't have been able to get it done if they didn't have Dirk perform the way he did.

[QUOTE=Pointguard]Dirk averaged 26 ppg in the finals. Thats not enough to say his offense was great. It simply isn't. When you consider that the team he faced had a guy average 9 more ppg before his prime do it. And another guy that would go on to average 3 more ppg than that the next year. Almost every year you mentioned that had a great scorer, someone scored more than 26ppg. It was very good but definitely not enough to claim it was worth more than the defense.

If Dirk's offense won the series then he simply outscores Wade and he didn't even accomplish that. To say his offense was as much as the Dallas defense doesn't make sense.[/QUOTE]

Because he does way more than just score. He spaces the floor and runs an elite pick and roll game. He also rebounds (10 per game in the finals) and defends a lot better than you give him credit for...as I have now showed factually...and just the eye test as well.

But again...who cares what you think? You think Terry was better than peak Gasol. Which is laughable even more for you because you value all around play. Terry is a poor playmaker, rebounder, and defender...he does nothing well but score...and even his scoring is below average for a championship 2nd option.

You fail...and fail miserably

Truth.com

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Because he does way more than just score. He spaces the floor and runs an elite pick and roll game. He also rebounds (10 per game in the finals) and defends a lot better than you give him credit for...as I have now showed factually...and just the eye test as well.

But again...who cares what you think? You think Terry was better than peak Gasol. Which is laughable even more for you because you value all around play. Terry is a poor playmaker, rebounder, and defender...he does nothing well but score...and even his scoring is below average for a championship 2nd option.

You fail...and fail miserably

Truth.com[/QUOTE]

Another guy that denies what the stats are saying and you should believe him cause he "says so".

[QUOTE=Black and White]Tbh i think youe being a little narrow minded when it comes to Dirk if you think that all he does is make timely baskets, he does much more than that, he is a floor leader, [/quote]
In what way? Jason Kidd is the main floor leader.
[quote]
he can create shots (something the great scorers do),
[/quote]
For himself??? for others??? He doesn't dribble much and isn't a great creator like the other great scorers. Maybe you can explain how its different for Jason Terry?
[quote]
has one of the best midrange games, he was the driving force behind the whole mavs unit, [/quote]
The midrange game is indeed a great quality so I will give you that. But Terry's long range game was more accurate in the wins which I was obviously talking about.
[quote]
But to your credit the whole team did step up tho, but they wouldn't have been able to get it done if they didn't have Dirk perform the way he did.[/QUOTE] Since you obviously didn't read it.

Terry made more baskets and three pointers shooting 20 shots less in the last three games. In the last three games after the series was tied

Terry shot 25 for 43 a 58% clip for 22 ppg
Dirk shot. 24 for 64 a 37.5% clip for 25.6 ppg

That's only a 3.6 differential with a whopping 20% point difference in percentage!

In the four finals wins:
30/54 555% for Terry
34/86 395% for Dirk

Dirk took 32 more shots to get 4 more baskets.

When Terry plays bad they lost both games. When Dirk plays bad they still won. When Terry plays well they win. When Dirk was most productive scoring wise they lost. They won 3 of 4 games when Terry took more than 12 shots - as he was the most efficient shooter on Dallas.

Yet Dirk's offense is suppose to mean more than the defense? You two are waaaaay off base. Dirk wasn't their most consistent scorer or their most efficient scorer when they won.

[QUOTE=Pointguard]In what way? Jason Kidd is the main floor leader.

For himself??? for others??? He doesn't dribble much and isn't a great creator like the other great scorers. Maybe you can explain how its different for Jason Terry?

The midrange game is indeed a great quality so I will give you that. But Terry's long range game was more accurate in the wins which I was obviously talking about.
Since you obviously didn't read it.

Terry made more baskets and three pointers shooting 20 shots less in the last three games. In the last three games after the series was tied

Terry shot 25 for 43 a 58% clip for 22 ppg
Dirk shot. 24 for 64 a 37.5% clip for 25.6 ppg

That's only a 3.6 differential with a whopping 20% point difference in percentage!

[B]In the four finals wins:
30/54 555% for Terry
34/86 395% for Dirk[/B]
Dirk took 32 more shots to get 4 more baskets.

When Terry plays bad they lost both games. When Dirk plays bad they still won. When Terry plays well they win. When Dirk was most productive scoring wise they lost. They won 3 of 4 games when Terry took more than 12 shots - as he was the most efficient shooter on Dallas.

Yet Dirk's offense is suppose to mean more than the defense? You two are waaaaay off base. Dirk wasn't their most consistent scorer or their most efficient scorer when they won.[/QUOTE]

When you put it like that, the numbers don't lie. Terry played a very good role, I do remember him closing off a game. Credit where credits due, you make a good point,

As long as you admit that there is more to Dirk then just being an opportunistic scorer im cool with it :cheers:

Oh and i meant hes good at creating shots for himself, not so much others. Similar to Kobe Bryant.

anyone know what KD and Dirk's individual Win-% is in the regular season and in the playoffs?

Only thing I could find was a article from 2011, in which it states Dirk's Win-% is one of the best amongst current players, but that it drops off quite a bit in the playoffs.

Regular season: 627-322 (.661)
Post season: 48-55 (.466)

[QUOTE=Black and White]When you put it like that, the numbers don't lie. Terry played a very good role, I do remember him closing off a game. Credit where credits due, you make a good point,

As long as you admit that there is more to Dirk then just being an opportunistic scorer im cool with it :cheers:[/QUOTE]
:facepalm

Dude...he's cherry picking games. LOL

This isn't about who was better in wins in the finals...come on now

Not to mention it all stems from Dirk. Terry can rarely get his own shot...he relies almost exclusively on the Dirk pick and roll to get looks...

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]:facepalm

Dude...he's cherry picking games. LOL[/QUOTE]

Wait what???????

[QUOTE=Black and White]Wait what???????[/QUOTE]

He's listing 4 games...

How about all the games in which Terry was much much much much worse?

His problem is that he honestly thinks Dirk is just Terry who scores 10 more ppg...when in fact Dirk can have an elite offense run through him. He makes everyone better...etc. He just doesn't understand Dirk's value...and he's hell bent on over-rating the shit out of truly one dimensional players like Terry to try and make people think Dirk isn't that good.

Yet, the sad thing is, in his twisted mind he thinks he values overall play...yet his take on Terry is the exact opposite.

So if Terry is better than Gasol...how good must he think Dirk really is? Not only is Dirk a far better scorer than Terry...he's far more clutch...a far better defender/rebounder, and makes his teammates much better...LOL

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]He's listing 4 games...

How about all the games in which Terry was much much much much worse?[/QUOTE]

Whats Dirk and Terrys full stats over the whole series??

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Because he does way more than just score. He spaces the floor and runs an elite pick and roll game. He also rebounds (10 per game in the finals) and defends a lot better than you give him credit for...as I have now showed factually...and just the eye test as well.[/quote]

Every scorer spaces the floor. Scoring is scoring, if the pick and roll is way more efficient than other means of scoring then it counts.

Sorry a team metric does not mean a player is responsible for the teams defense. Dirk has never held a superstar player down in his career. It's a freak accident in 2 year career. But never in 14 year career is a definite indication.
[quote]
But again...who cares what you think? You think Terry was better than peak Gasol.

Which is laughable even more for you because you value all around play. [B]Terry is a poor playmaker, rebounder, and defender[/B]...he does nothing well but score...and even his scoring is below average for a championship 2nd option.

Truth.com[/QUOTE]
Hmmmm. So Dirk is a conversation with all time greats when he's the worst defender of the bunch, the worst defender, and the most one dimensional. Can we say CCONTTTRADICTION.

I really don't care about Terry vs Pau comparison. I just knew you would go where you just did. Terry's value is timely scoring, especially when Dirk's shooting goes below 40% and he comes in taking 20 less shots to get the same amount of points.

[QUOTE=Pointguard]Every scorer spaces the floor. Scoring is scoring, if the pick and roll is way more efficient than other means of scoring then it counts.

Sorry a team metric does not mean a player is responsible for the teams defense. Dirk has never held a superstar player down in his career. It's a freak accident in 2 year career. But never in 14 year career is a definite indication.

Hmmmm. So Dirk is a conversation with all time greats when he's the worst defender of the bunch, the worst defender, and the most one dimensional. Can we say CCONTTTRADICTION.

I really don't care about Terry vs Pau comparison. I just knew you would go where you just did. Terry's value is timely scoring, especially when Dirk's shooting goes below 40% and he comes in taking 20 less shots to get the same amount of points.[/QUOTE]

But Dirk actually isn't...you just say he is. He's a 26/10/3 player for his career in the playoffs on some of the best overall efficiency...and his teams offense is always great.

He does way more than you give him credit for. The contradiction is with you moron. If you value Terry over Gasol...that means you value the things I claim are important you ****ing moron. Terry is like maybe 40% as good as Dirk..maybe...and you have Terry ranked over a 21/11/4 great all around power forward!!!!

jahahahahahahahahah

So obviously you value clutch scoring and efficient offense hugely...way more than I do...because I'd say Gasol is significantly better than terry

[QUOTE=Black and White]Whats Dirk and Terrys full stats over the whole series??[/QUOTE]

I think Dirk was something like 27/10/2...can't remember with Terry

But again...that is cherry picking. It's about the entire playoffs. And it's about the impact they each make.

It's not even remotely close.

Please don't fall for his bullshit. Of course the Mavs win when Terry plays well. That's what happens when you give Dirk a legit 2nd option. If Terry just averaged like 21 ppg like every 2nd option on title winning teams do...we honestly might have gone undefeated in the playoffs. That is how good Dirk was/is...give him a reliable 2nd fiddle and you can't stop him. Because you have to double him too often and if his teammates can make open shots and a guy can get the offense through the 10 minutes he's not out there...it's very difficult to beat him.

That's the whole point. Terry played like 85% like a normal championship 2nd option...and we won the title. Give Dirk a normal 2nd fiddle and an average championship defense and he's winning multiple titles...even against great competition. Been saying it for years...it happens...title. End of story.