The GOAT List: 2014 Edition

[QUOTE=DatAsh]One thing I really like that you do is that you take into account a player's ability to play different roles, and what that means to team success. Personally, I'd rather have a player that is mediocre as a first option, but great as a second or third option, than a player who is great as a first option - though not great enough to win it all - and mediocre to bad as a second or third option. If you accept the fact that the first option player isn't good enough to win it all as a first option, is there every any scenario where he gives you a better chance of winning than the "role" player?[/QUOTE]
:applause:

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents]Bosh is someone imo that will probably be overrated as hell after his career is over. From his absurd amount of all-star selections to being a member of the "Big 3", he'll be considered a much better than he actually was, especially by those who never watched him play.

To me, Bosh is a good player, but he's honestly just nothing special. He was never once relevant to the league in his Toronto days, he put up good numbers on a bad team, not much different from the likes of Elton Brand or Zach Randolph. I attribute him making 9 all-star games due to playing in the East, and I have a hard time believing he'd make even close to that amount had he been playing the West and competing with the likes of Duncan, KG, & Dirk for all-star spots.

Even his contributions in Miami have been far from impressive. You cited some of the things he improved, such as his jump shooting and some aspects of his defense, which is commendable. But his impact on the Heat has honestly been completely underwhelming. He hasn't received any kind of accolade in his 4 seasons in Miami, not a single All-NBA or All-Defensive team selection, and he never even garnered a single MVP vote.

Even his impact in the playoffs hasn't been that impressive He was injured for most of the 2012 playoffs and played decently, having maybe 3 good games in that run. However, you can't say the same about 2013. He grabbed that rebound in Game 6 over someone 5 inches shorter than, fine, but he was terrible in that playoff run, and ABYSMAL in the final two rounds. He averaged 11 & 6 on 42% in the ECF & Finals and got frequently outplayed and even dominated by Hibbert & Duncan.

In conclusion, Bosh is a good player, nothing more, nothing less, and would have absolutely irrelevant to the history of the league had he not joined a team with a top 10 & top 25 player of all time in their primes.[/QUOTE]
Have you watched Bosh in Miami, no plays ran for him.

His 5 All-Star years in Toronto, he's 23/10. And if Miami used him correctly, he's doin better than the 17/8, still not bad for someone who's a role player now. James Worthy and Robert Parish avg similar numbers.

There's really no difference between him and Gasol. Pau never got out the first round in Memphis, like Bosh. Over in LA, he wins two rings. And even being the clear cut 2nd banana over in LA, there numbers are very similar. 18/10 as #2 vs 17/8 as #3.

[QUOTE=L.Kizzle]Have you watched Bosh in Miami, no plays ran for him.

His 5 All-Star years in Toronto, he's 23/10. And if Miami used him correctly, he's doin better than the 17/8, still not bad for someone who's a role player now. James Worthy and Robert Parish avg similar numbers.

There's really no difference between him and Gasol. Pau never got out the first round in Memphis, like Bosh. Over in LA, he wins two rings. And even being the clear cut 2nd banana over in LA, there numbers are very similar. 18/10 as #2 vs 17/8 as #3.[/QUOTE]

You're right, Gasol & Bosh are basically on the same level as players. But even if you factor in what option they were, the difference in their playoff numbers & impact during their championship years is too great to ignore

Gasol 09-10: 19, 11, 3 on 56%, 19 & 18 in Game 7 of the Finals
Bosh 12-13: 13 & 8 on 47%, zero points in Game 7 of the Finals

As for Parish & Worthy in their championship years

Parish: 15 & 9 on 48%, 14 & 16 in Game 7 of the Finals
Worthy: 22, 6, 3 on 58%, 36, 16, 10 in Game 7 of the Finals

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents]You're right, Gasol & Bosh are basically on the same level as players. But even if you factor in what option they were, the difference in their playoff numbers & impact during their championship years is too great to ignore

Gasol 09-10: 19, 11, 3 on 56%, 19 & 18 in Game 7 of the Finals
Bosh 12-13: 13 & 8 on 47%, zero points in Game 7 of the Finals

As for Parish & Worthy in their championship years

Parish: 15 & 9 on 48%, 14 & 16 in Game 7 of the Finals
Worthy: 22, 6, 3 on 58%, 36, 16, 10 in Game 7 of the Finals[/QUOTE]
Well Parish and Worthy are much better than both. I Was just throwing 3rd option names out.

I think the 2nd vs. 3rd option is a major factor. If Bosh was a 2nd option throwing up a goose egg in a game 7, it would matter (and if they had lost.) But they won, and as you said his impact was minimal in the championship years.

He was not used correctly in the Big 3 era, anyone could see that.

[QUOTE=L.Kizzle]Well Parish and Worthy are much better than both. I Was just throwing 3rd option names out.

I think the 2nd vs. 3rd option is a major factor. If Bosh was a 2nd option throwing up a goose egg in a game 7, it would matter (and if they had lost.) But they won, and as you said his impact was minimal in the championship years.

He was not used correctly in the Big 3 era, anyone could see that.[/QUOTE]
He was a 3rd option because of his talent but he got the same kind of shots Allen, Battier, Miller and their PGs got. Just passes out on double teams or drives by Lebron and D.Wade. AND he had to be the primary rebounder and bigmen defender. While Wade and sometimes Lebron rested on defense, letting Battier, Chalmers and others do the dirty work, Bosh was not allowed to rest.

Gasol vs Bosh is a nice debate, but i see Pau as the better player. Bosh is a little better on D but Pau is a true 1b-option on a contender. Thats something Bosh is not. He is versitile because of his 3s but you are not calling a isolation play for him in the clutch in the finals against a Garnett.

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[SIZE="4"][B][FONT="Book Antiqua"]#124 George Harry Yardley III
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[B]Vitals:[/B] 6'5" 190 lbs
[B]Tier Classification:[/B] Elite Talents: Borderline Alphas
[B]Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons):[/B] 1953-1960 (6 prime)
[B]Primary Role(s) and Averages:[/B] #1/#2 on borderline contenders; 21-9-2 on 42/78
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[SIZE="3"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"][SIZE="6"]N[/SIZE]icknamed Yardbird because of his Military background and his last name, he eventually became Bird as fans and opponents watched him rise to stardom right along with the NBA in the shot clock era. A high scoring, high flying forward, Yardley fought for a starting spot in 1954, got it and helped lead the Pistons to consecutive finals appearances, went on to set scoring records. Was traded the next season, some say, in part because the owners Girlfriend thought he was ugly. Helped revitalize an aging Syracuse team in 1959 and 1960 and retired on his terms while still playing the game at a high level. George Yardley played a game ahead of it

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[SIZE="4"][B][FONT="Book Antiqua"]#123 Donald Neil Johnston
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[B]Vitals:[/B] 6'8" 210 lbs
[B]Tier Classification:[/B] Elite Talents: Borderline Alphas
[B]Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons):[/B] 1951-59 (6 prime)
[B]Primary Role(s) and Averages:[/B] #1 on bad teams (3 years; 23-13-3 on 45/74)
#2 on Champions and contenders (3 years; 22-12-3 on 44/82)
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[SIZE="3"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"][SIZE="6"]W[/SIZE]hen he finished his collegiate days at Ohio State Neil Johnston thought he’d make his father happy and become a major league baseball player. But after an arm injury, as Johnston put it “I was a fastball pitcher with no fastball” and the 6’7” gangly strong Buckeye deciding to give the fledgling NBA a shot. After fighting for playing time his first season, the departure of forwards Joe Fulks (retirement) and Paul Arizin (Korean War) opened the door for Johnston to become the next scoring star in line for Eddie Gottlieb’s Philadelphia Warriors. Johnston played his entire career with the Warriors and his loyalty was rewarded by Gottlieb who made him head coach after his playing days. Johnston’s all-around offensive excellence allowed him to build a gaudy resume in his short career and as well playing a key role on a Championship team. That combination has allowed him to be remembered as one of the greatest players of his or any other era.

[b]Resume:[/b] 8 seasons - 6x all-star, 5x all-NBA, 4x 1st Team all-NBA, 1956 NBA Champion, 3x Scoring leader, 1x rebounding leader, 3x fg% leader, 6x top ten PPG, 5x top ten RPG, 6x top ten fg%, 2x top ten ft%, 6x top ten WS (5x 1st), 6x top ten PER (1x 1st)

-stat junkies dream player
-played on four last place teams in eight seasons
-led league in MPG twice

[b]What Makes Him Elite:[/b] Great scorer and athletic center for his era. He is remembered for his sweeping hook shot and one hand set shot which he made with remarkable consistency. Three-time scoring Champion and one of the most efficient shooters of his day. Won scoring titles while Mikan was still active; only player to do so are him and teammate Paul Arizin. Also a top rebounder (league leader in 1955) and a capable playmaker from the pivot. Second best player on 1956 NBA Champions, had a few 30+ games in that playoff run. Four-time all-NBA first team selection, only exceeded by Mikan in terms of centers drafted before 1959.

[b]What are his Weaknesses/Limitations:[/b] Not a good defensive player; often gave up as many points as he scored. Got outplayed by lesser regarded rival centers Red Kerr (1957) and Larry Foust (1956) during playoff series in his prime. Only played in two other playoffs and was either injured or an insignificant factor in those years. Was famously held scoreless in 42 minutes against Bill Russell during Russell’s rookie year, that is often cited as the end of Johnston’s career as an all-star. He clearly struggled with larger more athletic big men coming to the league.

[b]Peak Season:[/b] 1955-56 has to be the one. The leagues most efficient marksman at 46%, he was the Warriors seconding leading scorer, top rebounder and was third in assists as they won 45 games and lost just 27, making them six games better than anyone else in basketball. In the playoffs they survived a do or die game five against the defending Champion Nationals before rolling past the powerful Pistons in four games to one in the NBA Finals. Neil averaged 20 points a league best 14 rebounds and 5 assists for the playoffs despite struggling with his shot.

[b]Low Point:[/b] Though many cite the Russell game as the end of Johnston’s career, it was really just a highlight of the weakness he had throughout his career. He was better suited to be a forward, but because of when he played, he was made a center. As a result he struggled mightily against larger men who were as athletic as he was. Even comparable players like Foust, Kerr and Harry Gallatin might bother Johnston but the likes of Russell and Chamberlain (who boasts of whooping Johnston while he was still in high school) were far too much for him to handle. After a knee injury during an exhibition game against St. Louis in 1958 cost Johnston what was left of his athleticism, Eddie Gottlieb moved him to head coach. That was his low point in my opinion as he struggled with Wilt Chamberlain who refused to listen to Johnston’s instructions or discipline in practice nor would he leave the game for a substitute when Johnston tried to replace him.

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[SIZE="4"][B][FONT="Book Antiqua"]#122 Max Zaslofsky
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[b]Vitals:[/b] 6

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents]You're right, Gasol & Bosh are basically on the same level as players. But even if you factor in what option they were, the difference in their playoff numbers & impact during their championship years is too great to ignore

Gasol 09-10: 19, 11, 3 on 56%, 19 & 18 in Game 7 of the Finals
Bosh 12-13: 13 & 8 on 47%, zero points in Game 7 of the Finals

As for Parish & Worthy in their championship years

Parish: 15 & 9 on 48%, 14 & 16 in Game 7 of the Finals
Worthy: 22, 6, 3 on 58%, 36, 16, 10 in Game 7 of the Finals[/QUOTE]

I'd take a Prime Pau over Bosh any day of the week. Bosh while clearly the superior defender isn't even close to Pau offensively. He's the better shooter but the day he joined the Heat his ability to iso seemed to disappear. I don't want to hear the "lack of plays ran for him" argument either because he's been given the opportunity plenty of times during games and him in iso situations is just cringe-worthy. With Pau you can dump it into the post and watch him make things happen, whereas with Bosh you don't know what you're going to get.

I'd have Yardley and Johnston over Max. Them playing with BAA and NBL together some years he gradually got worse when the leagues got together.

[QUOTE=L.Kizzle]I'd have Yardley and Johnston over Max.[/QUOTE]

Me too, although I'm glad to see Zaslofsky getting some recognition.

I'm interested to see where Joe Fulks ranks. One of the all-time greats IMO.

[QUOTE=L.Kizzle]I'd have Yardley and Johnston over Max. Them playing with BAA and NBL together some years he gradually got worse when the leagues got together.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=WillC]Me too, although I'm glad to see Zaslofsky getting some recognition.

I'm interested to see where Joe Fulks ranks. One of the all-time greats IMO.[/QUOTE]

Within the tiers, there is a lot of fluidity with my rankings. I could probably be talked into almost any order within most of them if I've done a good job. As to this trio, I tend to agree with you guys, especially having discussed these players more frequently as of late due to our HOF project. I think if I did the rankings today I'd have Yardley, Johnston and Zaslofsky.

I may have just read something about Max that made me want to give him a bump up the day I finalized the rankings for this years list.

Fulks is a bit higher, without spoiling too much, inside the top 100. Though he was clearly a product of his era, I feel like he elevated the standard for forwards almost as much as Mikan did for centers. Few players were ever as great in their time as Jumpin' Joe Fulks.

That's as always to both you guys for all your help and support with my endeavors online and for pushing this project along with your constant involvement, it is much appreciated.

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[SIZE="4"][B][FONT="Book Antiqua"]#121 Walter Jones Bellamy
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[B]Vitals:[/B] 6'11" 245 lbs
[B]Tier Classification:[/B] Elite Talents: Borderline Alphas
[B]Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons):[/B] 1961-1975 (10 prime)
[B][U]Primary Role(s) and Averages:[/U][/B]
Best player on bad teams (3 years; 29-16-2 on 52/66)
#1/#2/#3 on borderline playoff teams (7 years; 18-13-2 on 52/62)

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[SIZE="3"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-[SIZE="6"]F[/SIZE]ew players are as difficult to rank as Walt Bellamy. Surely some will think this is way too low and I

If you thought the SLAM 500 has him ranked too high the SLAM top 75 from 2003 has him ranked at #35 right in front of David Robinson.

[QUOTE=L.Kizzle]If you thought the SLAM 500 has him ranked too high the SLAM top 75 from 2003 has him ranked at #35 right in front of David Robinson.[/QUOTE]

Where would you rank him?

How does he fit in among:

Sikma
Mutombo
Johnston
Beaty
Laimbeer
Issel
Daugherty
Yao
Mourning
Daniels
Lanier

just better or worse if you like...

[QUOTE=G.O.A.T]Where would you rank him?

How does he fit in among:

Sikma
Mutombo
Johnston
Beaty
Laimbeer
Issel
Daugherty
Yao
Mourning
Daniels
Lanier

just better or worse if you like...[/QUOTE]
Mutombo Issel Mourning Daniels and Lanier definitely over Bellamy.

Beaty I wanna say they are dead even.

Sikma Laimbeer Brad D and Yao gotta think on those. Though I wanna say he's over Yao and Brad.

GOAT, where would you rank these player ... assuming they didn't make it inside your top 120?



Willie Naulls
Wayne Embry
Guy Rodgers
Larry Costello
Dick Barnett
Don Ohl
Van Arsdale twins
Calvin Murphy
Rudy T.
Randy Smith
World B. Free
Reggie Theus
Jeff Rulland
Kiki Vandeweghe
Fat Lever
Alvin Robertson
Terry Porter
Otis Thorpe
Charles Oakley
Mark Jackson
Dan Majerle
Allan Houston
Jamal Mashburn
Steve Francis

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[SIZE="4"][B][FONT="Book Antiqua"]#120 Zelmo Beaty Jr.
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[b]Vitals:[/b] 6

[QUOTE=L.Kizzle]GOAT, where would you rank these player ... assuming they didn't make it inside your top 120?[/quote]



Willie Naulls (284)
Wayne Embry (220)
Guy Rodgers (240)
Larry Costello (274)
Dick Barnett (300)
Don Ohl (313)
Van Arsdale twins (328 &329, Dick first)
Calvin Murphy (242)
Rudy T. (214, second player out)
Randy Smith (269)
World B. Free (270)
Reggie Theus (273)
Jeff Rulland (289)
Kiki Vandeweghe (267)
Fat Lever (216, almost made the list)
Alvin Robertson (245)
Terry Porter (222)
Otis Thorpe (223)
Charles Oakley (225) -that was a pretty impressive run there.
Mark Jackson (234)
Dan Majerle (295)
Allan Houston (238)
Jamal Mashburn (239)
Steve Francis (213, first player out)

Also nice work on the Beaty. Bellamy neck and neck conclusion. I think they are about as even as it gets.

A few others with Houston ties...

Robert Horry #251
Eddie Johnson #325, still love that top of the key three to win versus Utah.
Kenny Smith #334
Kevin Willis #372
Sleepy Floyd #373
John Lucas #379
Shane Battier #380
Mario Elie #451-#489
Robert Reid #451-#489
Vernon Maxwell #490-#522
Don Cheany #523-#571
Cuttino Mobley #523-#571
Mike Newlin #523-#571
Stu Lantz #523-#571

What gets Bellamy so high on list (still can't figure out his #35 ranking in SLAM in 2003) is his sexy numbers his first four seasons. 28/17 is damn sexy (his 32/19 as a rookie is still 2nd all time behind Wilts 38/27.) But after he's down to about 16/11 which is around Zelmo Beaty career avg.

Speaking of Wilt, I think his battles with Wilt showed that he wasn't anywhere near his lever. In his first games, Wilt said he wouldn't let him score in the first half and that's just what he did, Wilt blocked his shot 9 times that half. As the second half started, Wilt than said "now, you can score." Wilt also dropped most of his high scoring games on Bellamy.

Wilt 73 and 36 vs Bellamy. Wilt dropped at least five 60+ point games on Bellamy. He also used to dominate him at the Rucker Park Tournaments in Harlem.

Very good topic GOAT. I really like this stuff. Some of the few worthwhile posts that actually happen on this forum.

I don't post much anymore but when I did I was pretty into doing the Peak NBA drafts. I was a lot younger then (only 23 now) and didn't have nearly as much knowledge of basketball history and players as I do now.

Your topic reminded me of them. I would start one myself but I have my doubts that people would join if I started one, but I believe is a poster like you, kizzle or fplii who has a much bigger cache of respect it would take off.

Your current list seems to be a little more geared towards a players legacy while a peak draft is more about skill so while it is a kinda similar theme it has its own set of criteria and tests a posters ability to properly assess talent, chemistry, and overall fit of a team.

I would really enjoy if someone were to create the topic and if we got some legit posters to be involved in it and I think it would be a good way to discuss the xs and os of a team and a general idea of a teams construction.

I think there should be 10 players and 10 rounds. We choose 9 players and 1 coach. When the draft is done there are two options to choose a winner. We can either all make a post explaining why our team is the best and then a vote off happens with the active participants. No one can vote for themselves. They vote for three people and the number 1 vote gets 3 points, 2nd place 2 and 3rd place 1. Highest score wins and in the event of a tie we have a second round of voting.

The other option is we have a "play-in round" that leads to a playoffs. The voting happens in a similar manner for the play in round and the 8 highest vote getters join the playoff bracket. (with the highest vote getter on one side of the bracket and the lowest as the 4 seed on the same side, 2nd highest as the # 1 on the other side of the bracket and the 2nd lowest vote getter as the 4 seed on the other side. In the event of a 2 or 3 way tie the player with the most 1st place votes gets the higher side). Once the bracket has been set we have the playoffs where the high seed posts why he think his team would beat the low seed and then the low seed counters and then the high seed gets a 2nd counter (the high seed gets 2 times to argue there case as a way to simulate home court advantage and to reward someone for quality drafting).

As far as the rules that we play the game under I think it should be a mix of modern and oldschool. We bring handchecking back. We remove the 5 second back to the basket rule and possibly remove the 3 second rule (Im leery of bringing it back because I feel it would start to put the balance of power a little more towards post players and it would also hinder the effectiveness of dribble drive players).

I want to get a gauge from posters to see if there willing to participate. I truthfully really want to do it and I know kizzle used to always play when we were doing it so I hope he would be interested. If no one else wants to create the topic and be the comish I will

Seeding for drafting will be done by a random number generator. You get assigned a number based off spot you signed up for the draft (so the 7th person would be the 7th number in the number generator).

Anyone who has an interest in doing this please reply to this post (I don't log into my account often so I wont notice a pm immediately)

I hope to generate interest.

Sorry for the double post.

I also think we could do the draft in two ways. Just a general all of NBA, ABA, Older league and Euroleauge draft.

The second way would be to do it by decades, which is how we did it the first time. It was something to the effect of peaks 200s draft, peak 90's draft etc....

People who are interested should voice what type they want to do. We could do one for each decade back to the 70s or 60s (depending on how many people feel they have enough player knowledge to go that far back. I think that after the 70s I would be a little hard pressed and even the 70s is kinda pushing it)

If we do the decades version we should then do an alltime version to cap it off but doing a decades version would require a longer time commitment then a just a one off alltime version

Hey G.O.A.T, have you ever done a top 10 GOAT streetballers list?

I don't want to pester you fpliii. I just sent you a pm. IDK if ur box is full. Would you please read my previous posts and if your interested help me promote the draft idea I have. I think there pretty fun and worthwhile discussions. As I said in my pm I would send you a link to a previous draft to give you an idea of how they work.

I also pmed GOAT and kizzle and would truthfully appreciate a reply, even if it was a "Nahh I'm good on dat bruh"

[QUOTE=Rizko]I don't want to pester you fpliii. I just sent you a pm. IDK if ur box is full. Would you please read my post and if your interested help me promote the draft idea I have. I think there pretty fun and worthwhile discussions. As I said in my pm I would send you a link to a previous draft to give you an idea of how they work.[/QUOTE]
No worries, I replied.

As I said, I'm not sure how of much value I'd be since my knowledge of the 70s/80s is very, very limited (only started watching in the early 90s, and most of the research I've done is of the late 50s-early 70s), but it sounds like a ton of fun, and I'd like to follow the threads, and possibly participate in some form if I feel comfortable with the eras discussed.

Like I said in my pm don't worry too much about having deep knowledge of a specific era. Im thinking we could do a peak current player draft and a peak all-time draft to make it as inclusive as possible. If we do a current draft we use current rules and if we do an alltime draft we use a mix of rules (laid out in my first post).

It is basically choosing 90 players and 10 coaches altogether so it doesn't require someone to dig TOO deep in looking stuff up and if someone doesn't feel comfortable choosing an older player then just stick with picking players that you know.

I don't think choosing the best players is as important as choosing the correct players who fit together. For instance a lot of people choose guys like bruce bowen who isn't a top 100 player skill wise but his skillset is very conductive to team basketball so its sometimes better to choose a guy like him then to choose a guy like hayes, who has more skill but doesn't really fit as neatly into a team construct.

Rizko > Yeah, I think that's a very good idea. Team construction is always a fun exercise, since you also need to consider issues of fit, how you'd coach them, potential personality clashes etc.

[QUOTE=Rizko]Very good topic GOAT. I really like this stuff. Some of the few worthwhile posts that actually happen on this forum.

I don't post much anymore but when I did I was pretty into doing the Peak NBA drafts. I was a lot younger then (only 23 now) and didn't have nearly as much knowledge of basketball history and players as I do now.

Your topic reminded me of them. I would start one myself but I have my doubts that people would join if I started one, but I believe is a poster like you, kizzle or fplii who has a much bigger cache of respect it would take off.

Your current list seems to be a little more geared towards a players legacy while a peak draft is more about skill so while it is a kinda similar theme it has its own set of criteria and tests a posters ability to properly assess talent, chemistry, and overall fit of a team.

I would really enjoy if someone were to create the topic and if we got some legit posters to be involved in it and I think it would be a good way to discuss the xs and os of a team and a general idea of a teams construction.

I think there should be 10 players and 10 rounds. We choose 9 players and 1 coach. When the draft is done there are two options to choose a winner. We can either all make a post explaining why our team is the best and then a vote off happens with the active participants. No one can vote for themselves. They vote for three people and the number 1 vote gets 3 points, 2nd place 2 and 3rd place 1. Highest score wins and in the event of a tie we have a second round of voting.

The other option is we have a "play-in round" that leads to a playoffs. The voting happens in a similar manner for the play in round and the 8 highest vote getters join the playoff bracket. (with the highest vote getter on one side of the bracket and the lowest as the 4 seed on the same side, 2nd highest as the # 1 on the other side of the bracket and the 2nd lowest vote getter as the 4 seed on the other side. In the event of a 2 or 3 way tie the player with the most 1st place votes gets the higher side). Once the bracket has been set we have the playoffs where the high seed posts why he think his team would beat the low seed and then the low seed counters and then the high seed gets a 2nd counter (the high seed gets 2 times to argue there case as a way to simulate home court advantage and to reward someone for quality drafting).

As far as the rules that we play the game under I think it should be a mix of modern and oldschool. We bring handchecking back. We remove the 5 second back to the basket rule and possibly remove the 3 second rule (Im leery of bringing it back because I feel it would start to put the balance of power a little more towards post players and it would also hinder the effectiveness of dribble drive players).

I want to get a gauge from posters to see if there willing to participate. I truthfully really want to do it and I know kizzle used to always play when we were doing it so I hope he would be interested. If no one else wants to create the topic and be the comish I will

Seeding for drafting will be done by a random number generator. You get assigned a number based off spot you signed up for the draft (so the 7th person would be the 7th number in the number generator).

Anyone who has an interest in doing this please reply to this post (I don't log into my account often so I wont notice a pm immediately)

I hope to generate interest.[/QUOTE]
I'd be up for this definitely.

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[SIZE="4"][B][FONT="Book Antiqua"]#119 Mitchell James Richmond III
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[b]Vitals:[/b] 6

Run TMC should never have been broken up. :facepalm

One wonders if they stayed together, would the Warriors still get the chance to draft Chris Webber in 1993?

Now that would have been totally insane, a more talented version of Sacramento Kings circa 2000. :hammerhead:

[QUOTE=Gotterdammerung]Run TMC should never have been broken up. :facepalm

One wonders if they stayed together, would the Warriors still get the chance to draft Chris Webber in 1993?

Now that would have been totally insane, a more talented version of Sacramento Kings circa 2000. :hammerhead:[/QUOTE]
I don't think so. Sprewell came in the season before. Unless they received the first pick from the Richmond/Owens deal.

They did get Chris Gatling the year Rock was traded. He was decent big, became an All-Star. Hi Shawn Kemp!

[QUOTE=fpliii]Hey G.O.A.T, have you ever done a top 10 GOAT streetballers list?[/QUOTE]
Jackie Jackson
Earl Manigualt
Pee Wee Kirkland
Joe Hammond
Fly Williams
Herman Helicopter
Bill The Kid Harris
Raymond Lewis
Hook Mitchell

NBA Players
Wilt Chamberlain
Lew Alcindor
Dr. J
Black Jesus
Nate the Skate
Charlie Scott
Elgin Baylor
Rafer Alston

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[SIZE="4"][B][FONT="Book Antiqua"]#118 Dikembe Mutombo Mpolondo Mukamba Jean-Jacques Wamutombo
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[b]Vitals:[/b] 7

Deke wad expecting him to be slightly higher on the list. Great player great man great taunting finger wag. If he was in his prime now who would you take him or Dwight?

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[SIZE="4"][B][FONT="Book Antiqua"]#117 Vincent Lamar Carter Jr.
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[b]Vitals:[/b] 6’6” 215 lbs
[B]Tier Classification:[/B] Elite Talents: Borderline Alphas
[B]Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons):[/B] 1998-current (12 prime)
[B]Primary Role(s) and Averages:[/B] 23-5-4-1-1 on 45/38/80
Best player on borderline playoff teams (5 seasons; 25-5-4-1-1 on 45/39/79)
#1/#2/#3 on borderline playoff teams (5 seasons; 23-6-5-1-1 on 45/37/81)
#3/#4 on playoff teams (2 seasons; 15-4-3-1 on 43/36/80)
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[SIZE="3"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"][SIZE="6"]A[/SIZE]fter he brought the house down in February of 2000 with an electrifying performance in the Slam Dunk Contest, Vince Carter was dubbed Half Man, Half Amazing by Shaquille O’Neal, a fitting and flattering title. Long before he ascended to greatness on the NBA stage however, the comparisons to Michael Jordan had begun. A 6’6” high flyer from North Carolina, there alone you have enough to get the pulse moving, but Vince was never going to be Michael and he was never going to try to be. His rookie season 1998-99, the year after Jordan’s second retirement, was a launching pad for him as he elevated himself on the court and in the minds of fans winning rookie of the year and capturing the popular vote with a myriad of fabulous in-game slams. Carter had players all over the league taking notice including teammate Charles Oakley and former MVP Larry Bird who both agreed “he’s going to be unstoppable when he adds a jump shot.”

The next season he added that jump shot and he was close to unstoppable on offense. That along with the rise of third year HS to Pro star Tracy McGrady (a distant Cousin of carter’s) made Toronto a playoff team for the first time in franchise history. They were swept by the Knicks in 2000 and that offseason McGrady bolted for Florida in free agency. Carter spent the summer playing fantastic in the Olympics and seemed to be showing a new edge. Something Antonio Davis felt he had long needed; [I]"Vince needs to find something that's going to motivate him to be as aggressive as he is when he's mad. Because when he's not, he's a totally different player."[/I] The next season Carter was Carter’s best (28 ppg 6 rpg 4 apg), second team all-NBA and the Raptors beat the Knicks before falling to Philadelphia in seven brutal games. Carter scored 35, 50 and 39 points in the teams three wins, but was held to 22 ppg in the four losses on below 35% shooting. In 2001-02 the Raptors lost 38 year old Charles Oakley to retirement and replaced him with 39 year old Hakeem Olajuwon. A knee injury ended Carter’s season prematurely with the Raptors playing .500 ball. They lost in the playoffs, without Carter, to the Pistons in five games. That was the beginning of the end in Toronto. Carter missed half of the 2002-03 season and Toronto bottomed out with a 24-58 record.

Though Carter wanted the Raptors to use the 4th pick of the draft as trade bait to acquire a veteran to help replace Oakley, Olajuwon and Davis, the retired big men from the Raptors playoff teams, but instead they kept the pick and took Chris Bosh frustrating Carter. They would trade for Jalen Rose early in the 2004 season and with Carter fighting through injuries they finished just 33-49, VC shot a career-low 41% from the field and the fans frustration was starting to match his. The 2004-05 season spelled the end for Carter in Canada; he mopped his way through 20 games listlessly, continues his theme of not attacking the basket or seeming even the least bit interested. He was traded to New Jersey just before Christmas and to an extent revitalized his career with the Nets. Teamed with Jason Kidd and Richard Jefferson the Nets were one of the leagues top fast breaking teams. In nearly five seasons with the Nets Carter averaged 24-6-5, the Nets won as many as 49 games and made the playoff three consecutive years twice advancing to the second round. Carter was clearly filling up the stat sheets, but as he faded further and further from MVP and all-NBA consideration it was clear critics were not willing to forgive and forget his Toronto days.

In 2009 with the Nets facing rebuilding Carter was traded to Orlando where the Magic were coming off their first NBA finals appearance in 15 years. Accepting a smaller role (31 mpg) Carter averaged 16.6 points for Orlando (second on the team) and made it to the conference finals for the first time in his career. He struggled however against the Celtics shooting just 29-79 from the field as Boston won in six games. He spent the next season splitting time between Phoenix and Orlando before moving on to Dallas where he has played the past three seasons. Though he never had the same individual impact in the later phases of his career, Carter’s longevity is a testament to the fact that he is more than just a scorer. Carter now ranks 30th all-time in scoring, he’s in the top 50 in games and minutes played and he may not be done yet.

[b]Resume:[/b] 16 seasons and counting - 8x all-star, 2x all-NBA, 6x top ten PPG, 1x top ten 3ptm, 2x top ten PER, 2x top ten WS

-1999 Rookie of the Year
-2000 Slam Dunk Champion (Greatest performance ever)
-Top Vote Getter for All-Star Game Three times

[b]What Makes Him Elite:[/b] Few players have ever had the combined skill and athleticism on Vince Carter. In his first three seasons he was on the fast track to Superstardom but was derailed by immaturity and the frustrating nature of trying to win as the man in the NBA. No one else in his era brought the type of above the rim excitement a young Carter did as he transformed the Raptors into a legit NBA team for the first time. When he added a three-point shot and improved his passing and later his defense he had all the requisite skills to last in the NBA and now with 17 years of double digit scoring under his belt, he’s among the company of Reggie Miller and Ray Allen in terms of longevity at the shooting guard position.

[b]What are his Weaknesses/Limitations:[/b] Carter had all the tools to do so, but never became an elite player. In 2000 he was considered a better player than Tracy McGrady and Kobe Bryant, 2 years later he wasn’t even in the discussion. He never could handle the pressure/responsibility of being a superstar. He sulked in Toronto after things went bad, was accused and later admitted that he had not played hard a lot of times. At first his weaknesses were considered his outside shooting and playmaking, he addressed both over the course of his career but lost some of his strengths in the process; Carter developed a much needed jump shot during his second season but abandoned his basket attacking in the subsequent years. His playmaking in New Jersey and revitalized energy on the break came at the expense of his defense and the Nets were hardly more successful than Raptors despite a more talented roster. The worst thing about Carter is that you’ll remember him for what he could have been instead of what he was.

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VC gets such a bad rap for being a great player.

Wow, surprised to see them this early. I expected both especially Mutombo a lot higher. He was one of the best defensive players of all time in his prime, his resume proofs that.

[QUOTE=L.Kizzle]VC gets such a bad rap for being a great player.[/QUOTE]

A great player yes, but he brought a lot of his criticism on himself. No to mention his history of no show in elimination games. He's numbers from 2000-2010 in playoff elimination games

13.2 ppg
3.8 rpg
4.9 apg
.371 fg%

Since then

10.3 ppg
6.0 rpg
2.0 apg
.393 fg%

[QUOTE=G.O.A.T]A great player yes, but he brought a lot of his criticism on himself. No to mention his history of no show in elimination games. He's numbers from 2000-2010 in playoff elimination games

13.2 ppg
3.8 rpg
4.9 apg
.371 fg%

Since then

10.3 ppg
6.0 rpg
2.0 apg
.393 fg%[/QUOTE]
He had good games vs Sixers and Heat.

[QUOTE=L.Kizzle]Hi Shawn Kemp![/QUOTE]

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[SIZE="4"][B][FONT="Book Antiqua"]#116 Shawn T. Kemp
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[b]Vitals:[/b] 6