Dunking Data For 1988-1993: MJ is the Goat In-Game Dunker for Wing Players

[QUOTE=dubeta]There was no zone in MJ's era

As soon as you beat your man it was a guaranteed dunk[/QUOTE]

[I]Look at the lane... The 3-point shooters and defensive 3 seconds free the lane of literally everyone!!!... This is the environment that allows Lebron's dunks to be mostly wide open.
[/I]

[IMG]http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/aecd1ae80afe43c370373ea68b30122d.gif[/IMG]


Being allowed to use a zone when you have to guard 3-pointers and stay out of the paint is no better a defensive environment than NOT being allowed to use a zone but only having to guard 2-pointers and getting to camp in the paint indefinitely.

In today's game, MJ wouldn't need to be as great - he wouldn't need to make as many wild shots as he did when defenders could camp in the paint and didn't have to guard 3-pointers - today's game is about open shots, so he'd be taking more of those, just like Lebron uses the spacing to do here.
.

[quote=3ball]i got you...

every hood has that one massively huge guy that weighs between 300-450 pounds but is also 6'6" and could ball... barkely is that guy that made it, like, the pro version of them... there are a few others that made it, but barkely is their poster child.. :D[/quote]
Looking forward to the data.

Barkley used to jump over a 5 foot fence flat footed, after he (like Jordan) was cut from the varsity high school team. With the Sixers, Moses Malone had a big influence on him getting in shape.


[URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGftPYLZL0c&t=3m25s"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGftPYLZL0c&t=3m25s[/URL]



[I][B]Chicago Tribune - February 15, 1987
[/B]
[/I][I]Life has been a series of challenges for Charles Wade Barkley, and he has learned to like them.[/I]

[I]Once challenged, he sets his jaw and refuses to stop until his quest is complete. In the process, he can be intimidating, tenacious and possessed of an almost perverse determination.[/I]

[I]That kind of drive, an undying internal fire, brought Barkley from poverty to the lofty perch on which the 6-foot-5-inch forward sits today as the centerpiece of the 76ers.[/I]

[I]It all started a little more than seven years ago, when Barkley, dejected, went on an exercise binge that surely helped make him the player he is today.[/I]

[I]When Barkley was a sophomore in high school, he failed to make the varsity basketball team.[/I]

[I]"Him not making the varsity really made him determined," said Barkley's mother, Charcey Glenn. "He became obsessed with basketball."
[/I]
[I]He didn't have time for anything but running, exercising and playing basketball. That's all he did the whole summer. He'd run and run and run. It was hot, too. But he kept running, sometimes even at night. And he'd jump and jump and jump. He scared my mother so bad--scared me, too."[/I]

[I]In the heat of Leeds, Ala., Barkley, a pudgy kid who stood about 5-10 and weighed nearly 220 pounds, gritted his teeth and took the matter to task.[/I]

[I]The high school coach, Billy Coupland, had told him that he had to grow or his chances of making the varsity as a junior would be slim. If he couldn't reach the appropriate height through growth, Barkley was going to try to get there by jumping.[/I]

[I]"We had a chain-link fence about 5 feet high," said Barkley's grandmother, Johnnie Edwards, "and he'd jump from one side to the other--I mean flat-footed. And he'd do it over and over again, maybe 15 or 20 times. Then he'd rest and do it again. He did that just about every day. I think that jumping had a lot to do with him growing that summer."[/I]

[I]Barkley sprouted to 6-2 and by Christmas was starting for Leeds High School on a talented team that went to the state finals, finishing with a 25-7 record.[/I]

[QUOTE=fpliii]Not an interview, just a quote from his autobiography ("Living the Dream", written in 95). I typed up a bunch from there recently, and this one applied so I thought I'd share it.[/QUOTE]

That's a great analysis that can only be given by a fellow pro. He talked about MJ but he also provided a window into how he processed the game. Does he analyze any other players? That looks like a book worth picking up.

[B]Great thread, man :applause:

Jordan :bowdown: [/B]

And some of these young bucks here at ISH wonder why us MJ fans give MJ props so much--the man not only lived up to the hype, he EXCEEDED it.

[QUOTE=3ball]-
[B][U]Comparing Jordan's Dunking Data to Contemporaries[/U][/B]

For the 6 seasons between 1988 and 1993, Jordan had 746 dunks, or an average of 125 dunks per season.. His high was 158 (1988), and his low was 95 (1993)... (links to complete dunk data for each season are at the bottom of this post)

By comparison, from 2002-2009 (Kobe's athletic prime and highest volume period), Kobe averaged 65 dunks... Tracy McGrady averaged 75 dunks from 2001 to 2005 (his athletic prime and highest volume period)... Vince Carter in his prime and Paul George only get about 50 dunks per season.

Infact, Jordan's dunk totals dwarf every single wing player from this era except Wade, Lebron, and Durant... These are the only players that routinely amass over 100 dunks per year, although none of them have as many dunks over a 6-year period as Jordan - the high for any of these three players is 144, by Lebron this year.... Jordan has a season of 153 dunks and another with 158 dunks, and we don't have data for his biggest dunking year - 1987 when he averaged 37.1ppg on 27 shot attempts (still had 59%TS).


[B][U]Looking at the Dunking Environment Across Eras[/U][/B]

Of course, different eras use different rules and styles of play which affect how easy it is to get a dunk - this will sound crazy, but [I]Lebron dunked over defenders in a chest-to-chest scenario only 3 times the entire 2014 season - every other time the spacing and defensive 3 seconds prevented defenders from getting to the spot in time[/I]... and most of Lebron's dunks were completely wide open, not even a reach-in or fly-by - the 3-point shooting and floor-spacing creates too much ground and extra space for the defense to cover.... confirm for yourself... here are every single one of Lebron's dunks for the 2014 season - [I]only 3 posters[/I].

All Lebron dunks from 1st half of season... [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCYKuK84cCQ[/url]
All Lebron dunks from 2nd half of season... [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BiApca7OtE0[/url]


After you've watched Lebron's dunks in the 2014 season, compare that to Jordan's dunks in 1987... [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQH7_BW9hCI&t=2m12s[/url]

RIGHT AWAY you can tell that there's a massive difference - there is no spacing and less room between defenders because the defense is packed-in so they can better defend only 2-pointers, and shot-blocking big men are camped in the paint awaiting penetrators (rather than today's game where helping on penetration involves scrambling from the three-point line to the paint and then making sure you aren't in there for more than 3 seconds).

The lack of spacing meant Jordan had to frequently dunk over and through guys if he wanted to dunk - so much so, that even with the limited footage available from back then, it is easy to find literally hundreds of Jordan dunks over defenders... For example, listed below are links to various collections of Jordan posters (very partial collections)... you could never accumulate collections like this for Lebron, because today's game with the spacing doesn't allow this level of shot contestion, so Lebron doesn't even have a small fraction as many posters as Jordan has.

[url=http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=40414797#p40414797][u]Top 15 MJ Dunks Over Multiple Contesting Defenders[/u][/url]

[url=http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=40382395#p40382395][u]Partial Collection of MJ Dunks Over All-Time Great Centers[/u][/url]

[url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10441991&postcount=40][u]Various Two-Handed Posters Over Defenders (two-foot takeoffs)[/u][/url]



[B][U]Total Number of Dunks for Each Player in Various Seasons[/U][/B] (retrieved from 76er's Media Guides)

1988... [url]http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2lb0whh&s=8#.U_0tH_ldX2U[/url]
1989... [url]http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=ra47s3&s=8#.U_0qN_ldX2U[/url]
1990... [url]http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=29aw57s&s=8#.U_0sDPldX2U[/url]
1991... [url]http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=qpikcz&s=8#.U_0tS_ldX2V[/url]
1993... [url]http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=6i9zef&s=8#.U_02XvldX2U[/url]

88'-93'... [url]https://scontent-b-mia.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/t1.0-9/s720x720/1795563_10204531167778660_7768591196828075347_n.jpg[/url][/QUOTE]

I like how you favor MJ as the greatest by comparing him to Lebron. Put Kobe in there and we know who the best is.

I can bring up videos that trumps that.

[QUOTE=9erempiree]I like how you favor MJ as the greatest by comparing him to Lebron. [/QUOTE]
If it wasn't for the media mistakenly trying to sell everyone on comparing Lebron to MJ and people actually going for it, I wouldn't bring up Lebron at all.

[QUOTE=3ball]If it wasn't for the media mistakenly trying to sell everyone on comparing Lebron to MJ and people actually going for it, I wouldn't bring up Lebron at all.[/QUOTE]

You didn't need to pull up stats to try and say Lebron sucked at dunking. ISH already knows that.

Lebron's reason as a good dunker?

Dat eye-level tho.:lol

[QUOTE=9erempiree]I like how you favor MJ as the greatest by comparing him to Lebron. Put Kobe in there and we know who the best is.

I can bring up videos that trumps that.[/QUOTE]

OK we're waiting.

Thank you for bringing up the next epic thread after pauk's LeBron flop thread failed. You're doing God's work :cheers:

Spoke to Harvey Pollack today, and ordered the 95-96 and 96-97 yearbooks (with data from 94-95 and 95-96). I'll upload the new scans when the books arrive.

Looking at 3ball's gifs it just strikes it home for me that not only is Jordan's pure vertical fairly impressive, but what's more notable about it is just the sheer speed he can rise up off the floor.

It just seems like he has springs in his legs, very difficult to guard when a guy can accelerate and leap off the floor so quickly, you can't angle him off. A lot of guys can jump high, but they need more time/space to gather themselves to do so, Jordan is almost like a video game cheat code the way he can elevate on a dime and get really good explosion on the jump from almost any leaping angle.

They must be putting something in the water in North Carolina.

[QUOTE=Soundwave]Looking at 3ball's gifs it just strikes it home for me that not only is Jordan's pure vertical fairly impressive, but what's more notable about it is just the sheer speed he can rise up off the floor.

It just seems like he has springs in his legs, very difficult to guard when a guy can accelerate and leap off the floor so quickly, you can't angle him off. A lot of guys can jump high, but they need more time/space to gather themselves to do so, Jordan is almost like a video game cheat code the way he can elevate on a dime and get really good explosion on the jump from almost any leaping angle.

They must be putting something in the water in North Carolina.[/QUOTE]

I definitely agree with you. I've long said that Jordan needed less leg/knee flexion to "gather" for a jump than any of the other great leapers (Carter, Nique, Dr. J etc.). I personally attribute it to him having more fast twitch fibers in his thighs and calves (which is likely also what makes him quicker/more explosive than those guys in terms of speed). You can really see how little flex he needs to get great air, and how quickly he gets off the ground, in these two plays:

At the 21:33 mark: [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAv3V5l9hG4[/URL]

[URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fc4Ydxq4YI#t=3m34s"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fc4Ydxq4YI#t=3m34s[/URL]

[QUOTE=3ball]Don't have the 1992 season... I think Fpliii has it and posted the data previously.

[B][U]Plus-Minus Data for Sixers Players[/U][/B]

1988.. [url]http://tinypic.com/r/143qmom/8[/url]
1989.. [url]http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2mnoy76&s=8#.VAi_6vldX2U[/url]
1990.. [url]http://tinypic.com/r/v7xts6/8[/url]
1991.. [url]http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=hx838g&s=8#.VAjAVfldX2U[/url]
1993.. [url]http://tinypic.com/r/346u6ih/8[/url][/QUOTE]
Thanks. Here is the Sixers plus/minus for 91-92 and 94-95, 95-96:

[url]http://www35.zippyshare.com/v/92248068/file.html[/url]

[QUOTE=PHILA]Thanks, this along with 3ball's plus/minus data from 1991, 1993, etc. will provide a better statistical picture of Barkley in his prime years.[/QUOTE]
Don't have the 1992 season... I think Fpliii has it and posted the data previously.

[B][U]Plus-Minus Data for Sixers Players[/U][/B]

1988.. [url]http://tinypic.com/r/143qmom/8[/url]
1989.. [url]http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2mnoy76&s=8#.VAi_6vldX2U[/url]
1990.. [url]http://tinypic.com/r/v7xts6/8[/url]
1991.. [url]http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=hx838g&s=8#.VAjAVfldX2U[/url]
1993.. [url]http://tinypic.com/r/346u6ih/8[/url]

[IMG]http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/04cb29c7576454de2726a70c31eea782.gif[/IMG]


[IMG]http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/c351886a867ba098f5166ba99e35e765.gif[/IMG]


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[IMG]http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/750cee2af2de8a095021bb19b0d5003b.gif[/IMG]


[B]All Zo Posters are Different From Each Other (see different color uni's)
[/B]
[IMG]http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/488b89386f7955674a89121a711b29cb.gif[/IMG]


[IMG]http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/8487252686d9f5a7366f5b8a416b88e8.gif[/IMG]


[IMG]http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_Dunks_On_Detlef_Schremp_8a68ef9306ed54975761aa8b0a9e237c.gif[/IMG]


[IMG]http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/8546b3c2aad9c1d8eac3fc9025caf460.gif[/IMG]


[IMG]http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/2fa23c224d86948204d609db78ae9917.gif[/IMG]

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[SIZE="3"][B]the first two posters below were [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSuLMxHw4s0][u]back-to-back plays[/u][/url][/B].
[/SIZE]

[IMG]http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_Splits_Perimeter_Double_6e7b1e60fae2c32de17fc6999697853d.gif[/IMG]


[IMG]http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/e1e7b18161c7d262f9cbc47b239db52a.gif[/IMG]


[IMG]http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/69c91aefc7756a3ba940d1a5f36e2e46.gif[/IMG]


[IMG]http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/6b6578c479e3cd9469648570db1060d6.gif[/IMG]


[IMG]http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/c3912873479cd1329fbcb798ee6d250d.gif[/IMG]


[IMG]http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/1b4e16f6ea41edb27cbb7c901e4fa5e1.gif[/IMG]


[IMG]http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/0dce63e4c47784ecab189360e23873b3.gif[/IMG]


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[IMG]http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/fb98ace04e123a7090ed8b366dd2375d.gif[/IMG]


[u][b]Links[/b]:[/u]

[url=http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=40414797#p40414797][u]Top 15 MJ Dunks Over Multiple Contesting Defenders[/u][/url]

[url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10508118&postcount=237][u]Random Posters 1[/u][/url]

[url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10513143&postcount=256][u]Random Posters 2[/u][/url]

[url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10512996&postcount=255][u]Random Posters 3[/u][/url]

[url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10494322&postcount=198][u]Random Posters 4[/u][/url]

[url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10487292&postcount=48][u]Random Posters 5[/u][/url]

[url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10273035&postcount=86][u]Random Posters 6 (for 6)[/u][/url]

[url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10512074&postcount=27][u]Old-Man Chest-to-Chest Posters[/u][/url]

[url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10441991&postcount=40][u]Various Two-Handed Posters Over Defenders (two-foot takeoffs)[/u][/url]

[url=http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=40382395#p40382395][u]Partial Collection of MJ Dunks Over All-Time Great Centers[/u][/url]

[url=http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=40750321#p40750321][u]Top 15 Hanging Jumpshots by MJ[/u][/url]

[quote=3ball]Don't have the 1992 season... I think Fpliii has it and posted the data previously.

[B][U]Plus-Minus Data for Sixers Players[/U][/B]

1988.. [URL="http://tinypic.com/r/143qmom/8"]http://tinypic.com/r/143qmom/8[/URL]
1989.. [URL="http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2mnoy76&s=8#.VAi_6vldX2U"]http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2mnoy76&s=8#.VAi_6vldX2U[/URL]
1990.. [URL="http://tinypic.com/r/v7xts6/8"]http://tinypic.com/r/v7xts6/8[/URL]
1991.. [URL="http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=hx838g&s=8#.VAjAVfldX2U"]http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=hx838g&s=8#.VAjAVfldX2U[/URL]
1993.. [URL="http://tinypic.com/r/346u6ih/8"]http://tinypic.com/r/346u6ih/8[/URL][/quote]

:cheers:

[QUOTE=fpliii]

I just think that this is amazing new information we have, and we need to be very thorough in doing our due-diligence here.

[/QUOTE]
Any theories about the data?

[QUOTE=fpliii]

Something that might be interesting is maybe comparing players' dunks by positions, and seeing if over time, there were big changes in wings vs bigs, etc.

[/QUOTE]
I did this to a minor extent itt and found that the number of wing players with over 100 dunks has remained steady over eras... It's not much insight, but it's something - it supports the notion that each era's top wing dunkers are pretty comparable.

I also made a few position-comparison threads, in part to evaluate how the changing mix of players at a given position could affect dunking - [I]the format of the comparisons is to list the players for one of the eras, and then the other era must match them player-for-player - this way, it is easy to see if one era can't keep up.[/I]

Here are the final lists comparing [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10524574&postcount=25][u]1990 SF's to 2014 SF's[/u][/url].... [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10521405&postcount=1][u]1990 SG's to 2014 SG's[/u][/url].... [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10528351&postcount=1][u]1997 PG's to 2014 PG's[/u][/url].
.

[QUOTE=3ball]Any theories about the data?[QUOTE]
I don't have any new theories, but I never really had any in the first place. :confusedshrug: I just mentioned all the possibilities.

I've said numerous times that I think MJ is a better dunker than LeBron.

[QUOTE]I did this to a minor extent itt and found that the number of wing players with over 100 dunks has remained steady over eras... It's not much insight, but it's something - it supports the notion that each era's top wing dunkers are pretty comparable.[/QUOTE]
Interesting note...turns out the Philly Media Guides actually have dunks by Sixers players going back further, so we should have more data on Barkley and Dr. J.

I expect Erving to have more dunks than LeBron, but fewer than MJ.

[QUOTE]I also made a few position-comparison threads, in part to evaluate how the changing mix of players at a given position could affect dunking - [I]the format of the comparisons is to list the players for one of the eras, and then the other era must match them player-for-player - this way, it is easy to see if one era can't keep up.[/I]

Here are the final lists comparing [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10524574&postcount=25][u]1990 SF's to 2014 SF's[/u][/url].... [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10521405&postcount=1][u]1990 SG's to 2014 SG's[/u][/url].... [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10528351&postcount=1][u]1997 PG's to 2014 PG's[/u][/url].
.[/QUOTE]
I skimmed those a bit, a couple comments though:

Why are you using PER as a cutoff? It really severely undervalues great defensive players, since only blocks and steals are in the formula on that end (and so little of defense is recorded in the box score). Why not just look at all guys who started most of their teams' games at those positions?

Also, I think picking one year is maybe not the best idea. Rather, something like looking at the best PG/SG/SF over a five year period might be better.

:cheers:

[QUOTE=fpliii][QUOTE=3ball]Any theories about the data?[QUOTE]
I don't have any new theories, but I never really had any in the first place. :confusedshrug: I just mentioned all the possibilities.

I've said numerous times that I think MJ is a better dunker than LeBron.


Interesting note...turns out the Philly Media Guides actually have dunks by Sixers players going back further, so we should have more data on Barkley and Dr. J.

I expect Erving to have more dunks than LeBron, but fewer than MJ.


I skimmed those a bit, a couple comments though:

Why are you using PER as a cutoff? It really severely undervalues great defensive players, since only blocks and steals are in the formula on that end (and so little of defense is recorded in the box score). Why not just look at all guys who started most of their teams' games at those positions?

Also, I think picking one year is maybe not the best idea. Rather, something like looking at the best PG/SG/SF over a five year period might be better.

:cheers:[/QUOTE]
I think Erving will have a lot less dunks than Lebron because Lebron plays with the spacing, which is more conducive for a run-up and one-legged takeoffs, which Dr. J was great at like Lebron.

But I could easily be wrong... Relatively speaking, I haven't seen much Dr. J at all now that I think of it.

I used PER because it takes to long to do all the players at a given position.... and if the list was going to be pared down, using a PER cut-off was as good a method as any.

I agree... 5-year periods would be way better... don't have time for that though... however, the one year comparisons provide an accurate snapshot of one year versus another, which is still useful in gauging one year versus another.

[QUOTE=3ball][QUOTE=fpliii][QUOTE=3ball]Any theories about the data?
I think Erving will have a lot less dunks than Lebron because Lebron plays with the spacing, which is more conducive for a run-up and one-legged takeoffs, which Dr. J was great at like Lebron.

But I could easily be wrong... Relatively speaking, I haven't seen much Dr. J at all now that I think of it.

I used PER because it takes to long to do all the players at a given position.... and if the list was going to be pared down, using a PER cut-off was as good a method as any.

I agree... 5-year periods would be way better... don't have time for that though... however, the one year comparisons provide an accurate snapshot of one year versus another, which is still useful in gauging one year versus another.[/QUOTE]
Spacing or not, from the tape Dr. J seems to be the better and more prolific dunker than LeBron. I guess you could be right, but I feel like Erving will likely have more dunks.

I didn't watch much of Dr. J either (started watching in 92-93, and the only games I've really watched before then are ECF/WCF/Finals on tape/youtube), but he was incredible at getting to the basket. Not as good as MJ or a Barkley say, but he seemed to get there effortlessly.

Guides arrived!

94-95: [url]http://i58.tinypic.com/316rspc.jpg[/url]
95-96: [url]http://i57.tinypic.com/j82vl1.jpg[/url]

[QUOTE=fpliii]Guides arrived!

94-95: [url]http://i58.tinypic.com/316rspc.jpg[/url]
95-96: [url]http://i57.tinypic.com/j82vl1.jpg[/url][/QUOTE]
That's right... post it here so someone that has a clue can actually make sense of the numbers... make up a little bit for you wasting people's time

.
[SIZE="4"][B]SG's and SF's with 1 or more seasons of 100+ Dunks[/B]
[/SIZE]

[U]1988 - 1996[/U][COLOR="White"]......................[/COLOR][U]2001 - 2014[/U]

Michael Jordan.................. Kevin Durant
Dominique Wilkins............. Lebron James
Clyde Drexler.................... Dwayne Wade
Scottie Pippen................... Carmelo Anthony
Penny Hardaway................ Kobe Bryant
Grant Hill.......................... Tracy McGrady
Ron Harper ...................... Andre Iguodala
Richard Dumas.................. Rudy Gay
Stacy Augmon................... Shawn Marion
Michael Finley.................... Richard Jefferson
Jerry Stackhouse
Cedric Ceballos
[B][COLOR="Red"][SIZE="2"]Derrick McKey[/B] (All-NBA Defender)[/SIZE][/COLOR]
Roy Hinson
Chris Morris

[i][B]Sources[/B]: Dunk data for 2001-2014 is from basketball-reference.com; 1988-1996 dunk data was retrieved from Philadelpia 76'er Media Guides and Harvey Pollack's Statistical Guides, links for which are in this thread's OP: [url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=352399[/url][/i]
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[QUOTE=3ball][SIZE="3"]Multi-Yr Comparison: 1988-1996 = 2001-2014 [I]Athlete for Athlete, Player for Player[/I].[/SIZE]


[B]SG's and SF's with 100+ Dunks in a Season[/B]


[U]1988 - 1996[/U][COLOR="White"]......................[/COLOR][U]2001 - 2014[/U]

Michael Jordan.................. Kevin Durant
Dominique Wilkins............. Lebron James
Clyde Drexler.................... Dwayne Wade
Scottie Pippen................... Carmelo Anthony
Penny Hardaway................ Kobe Bryant
Grant Hill.......................... Tracy McGrady
Ron Harper ...................... Andre Iguodala
Richard Dumas.................. Rudy Gay
Stacy Augmon................... Shawn Marion
Michael Finley.................... Richard Jefferson
Derrick McKey
Jerry Stackhouse
Cedric Ceballos
Roy Hinson
Chris Morris


I'm looking hard and cannot find where 2001-2014 has any advantage at all.[/QUOTE]

:oldlol: :oldlol: You're telling me VINCE CARTER isn't on this list? We want hard data and sources...

and stop posting gifs of MJ traveling like this:

[IMG]http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/1b4e16f6ea41edb27cbb7c901e4fa5e1.gif[/IMG]

Dude moves his feet 50 times before dropping the dribble.

[QUOTE=fpliii]Guides arrived!

94-95: [url]http://i58.tinypic.com/316rspc.jpg[/url]
95-96: [url]http://i57.tinypic.com/j82vl1.jpg[/url][/QUOTE]

Ha, I knew 95 would be Pippens peak for dunks in a season. He was smashing it over everybody that season

[QUOTE=Hoopz2332]Example below:oldlol:


[b]Lebron James With The And1 Breakaway Dunk[/b]

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kI1mAMTh4Pw&hd=1[/url]

straight trucked:lol[/QUOTE]

weak :banana:

[QUOTE=sball]

[SIZE="3"]Multi-Yr Comparison: 1988-1996 = 2001-2014 [I]Athlete for Athlete, Player for Player[/I].[/SIZE]


[B]SG's and SF's with 100+ Dunks in a Season[/B]


[U]1988 - 1996[/U][COLOR="White"]......................[/COLOR][U]2001 - 2014[/U]

Michael Jordan.................. Kevin Durant
Dominique Wilkins............. Lebron James
Clyde Drexler.................... Dwayne Wade
Scottie Pippen................... Carmelo Anthony
Penny Hardaway................ Kobe Bryant
Grant Hill.......................... Tracy McGrady
Ron Harper ...................... Andre Iguodala
Richard Dumas.................. Rudy Gay
Stacy Augmon................... Shawn Marion
Michael Finley.................... Richard Jefferson
Derrick McKey
Jerry Stackhouse
Cedric Ceballos
Roy Hinson
Chris Morris

[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=eliteballer]

:oldlol: :oldlol: You're telling me VINCE CARTER isn't on this list? We want hard data and sources...

[/QUOTE]
One thing you have to remember, is that everyone on that list has 3 qualities:

1) quickness overall and quickness going to the hole
2) quickness off their feet - they get up high AND quickly
3) high offensive skill level

So for anyone that you wonder why they aren't on the list, see if they fulfill all of the above requirements.

The only quality that a couple of the guys on the list don't possess is #3, a high offensive skill level (Shawn Marion, Stacy Augmon, and maybe Iguodala and Roy Hinson).
.

3ball - Here's all of the data from the 77-78 through 87-88 Sixers guides (+/- and dunks):

[url]http://www50.zippyshare.com/v/90023599/file.html[/url]

Apologies for the glare (would've scanned, but I didn't want to ruin the spine of these books), I included a text file with clarifications.

[QUOTE=fpliii]3ball - Here's all of the data from the 77-78 through 87-88 Sixers guides (+/- and dunks):

[url]http://www50.zippyshare.com/v/90023599/file.html[/url]

Apologies for the glare (would've scanned, but I didn't want to ruin the spine of these books), I included a text file with clarifications.[/QUOTE]

[B]:cheers: Great stuff man :applause:

Erving and Dawkins :bowdown: Must've been hard to protect the rim against those two (when Darryl wasn't breaking them, lmfao). Erving still with 118 dunks in 1986, when he was 36, what a freak of nature.
Then you also got the likes of Bobby Jones, World B Free and Caldwell Jones, plus some really quick little guys like Cheeks or Toney... some of the most athletic teams ever, if not the most at some point.
Afterwards, Barkley came along, killing it.

Free with 41 dunks in 1978 and 50 in 1979, nice! This was only a 6'2 player but, reportedly, with a 44'' vertical... Shame that there's only few footage of him dunking out there, and the most stuff you got from him not in his younger days.

In the late 70's, Gilmore was always #1 in terms of opponents' dunks, Bobby Jones amongst the top too, before he joined them.

Loved how they've included "Last Year's Fights", then you got a whole bunch of them :lol [/B]

i haven't watched much Dr. J and it shows with my predictions that he would have less dunks than Lebron.

i figured they were both one-foot leapers but Dr. J was doing it with less room... so... he'd have less dunks right??

but apparently i've overlooked Dr. J the same way a lot of people overlook Jordan - that's how mainstream Dr. J was to me i suppose... :oldlol: :facepalm

Maybe Dr. J dunked off two-feet more than I remember, and perhaps his less bulky physique allowed him to mitigate the greater traffic better - regardless, i need to brush up on my Dr. J..

When i was looking up elgin-steps recently (also called euro-steps) i got the sense that he had a tremendously optimal physique for sliding in the lanes... his elgin-step looked super-smooth and like, silkier even than the guys that do the elgin-step today.

But my first times watching hoops was watching this guy.. Dr. J appears to be in a league of his own, but Jordan was right with him or #2.

I believe Dr. J and Jordan are the only wings that could have accumulated high frequency of posters seen in the collections below, simply because his volume was up there and even exceeded Jordan, AND he played in the no-spacing era, even [I]more so[/I] than Jordan.

[B][SIZE="2"]GIF's OF 105 CHEST-TO-CHEST POSTERS BY MICHAEL JORDAN (almost all in the halfcourt)[/SIZE][/B]

[url=http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=40414797#p40414797][u]Top 15 MJ Dunks Over Multiple Contesting Defenders[/u][/url]
[url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10508118&postcount=237][u]Random Posters 1[/u][/url]
[url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10512996&postcount=255][u]Random Posters 2[/u][/url]
[url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10487292&postcount=48][u]Random Posters 3[/u][/url]
[url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10494322&postcount=198][u]Random Posters 4[/u][/url]
[url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10513143&postcount=256][u]Random Posters 5[/u][/url]
[url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10273035&postcount=86][u]Random Posters 6 (for 6)[/u][/url]
[url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10512074&postcount=27][u]Old-Man Chest-to-Chest Posters[/u][/url]
[url=http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=40382395#p40382395][u]Partial Collection of MJ Dunks Over All-Time Great Centers[/u][/url]
[url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10441991&postcount=40][u]Various Two-Handed Posters Over Defenders (two-foot takeoffs)[/u][/url]

I haven't watched enough of Dr. J yet either to form an opinion. I guess maybe a lot depends on how he was getting his dunks (going baseline, driving the paint, in transition, etc.).

As you said though his frame wasn't too bulky, so that probably help him get through walls of defenders.

Captain Marvel!!!

[QUOTE=fpliii]I haven't watched enough of Dr. J yet either to form an opinion. I guess maybe a lot depends on how he was getting his dunks (going baseline, driving the paint, in transition, etc.).

As you said though his frame wasn't too bulky, so that probably help him get through walls of defenders.[/QUOTE]This takes absolutely nothing away from Julius Erving and Michael Jordan but I've often wondered if the manner with which they were able to palm the ball with such incredible ease may have boosted their dunk numbers.

For most players, those who cannot palm the ball like Erving and Jordan, dunking features a relatively limited striking window. Generally, it's a singular process. One's approach, gather, swing, elevation, extension, and hammer are all synced up to maximize momentum and power. If that process is interrupted or environmental factors aren't just right, it could be tougher to execute a dunk, resulting in a fingerroll or layup instead.

When one can palm like Jordan and Erving (and to a lesser extent, Pippen), the dunking availability window opens much wider. The process is shorter, can be started in more unique situations, and can be more readily altered en route. When regular folks pull the line of, "I can dunk a volleyball, but that's about it", that often is not so much about a volleyball fitting in the hoop easier as it is about one being able to palm the ball readily and thus not needing to jump quite as high, worry about losing control or throwing the ball in within the right window (super palm dunks can be wrist plops).

In my [i]personal[/i] experience, I generally cannot palm a ball. I can still dunk, but the situations within which I can dunk in games are generally limited (fast breaks, relatively clean initial steps in the half court to build up momentum). But on that odd day of the year when someone brings down a rubber Under Armour ball that I can kind of palm like Dr. J, it feels like every single drive is a dunking opportunity. Stuffing the ball into my mitt and guiding it is much, much easier.

Example of the stuff-and-control:

[img]http://media.giphy.com/media/msek2MWY9VsAg/giphy.gif[/img]

And here's a example of a super palm, from an angle that'd be tough to get a non-palm finish over the rim:

[img]http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/d6de618b81d74a092b4159e118cad7b6.gif[/img]

All that said, [b]and this is very important[/b], I would like to re-iterate that takes [i]nothing[/i] away from any dunker. Moreover, I think it's also very important to point out that at least in Jordan's case, even if we took away all his super palming dunks, he'd still be a dunking genius and likely would have out-dunked virtually all of his contemporaries. The vast majority of the dunk gifs in this thread have featured non-palm finishes anyhow, as most of his two-foot, chest to chest attacks were swing-backs with a lot of build up and momentum, from high above the rim.

The point is, while his non-palms were ever present and spectacular, accounting for the majority of his dunks, the super palming ability may have allowed him to finish with a dunk in situations that otherwise would not have been possible. He basically may have had some bonus flushes courtesy of that hand size (it seemed Jordan performed more of these as he got older).

On the other hand, Erving seemed to more heavily rely upon palm dunks. And again, to be clear, Walter Herrmann could palm the ball like Dr. J, but it doesn't mean he could automatically dunk all the time. It's the combination of such an incredible ability to palm the ball with historic and legendary ability, athleticism, explosion, and elevation that leads to a Julius Erving or Michael Jordan. They could dunk in many situations when others could not. Whereas they might have had more dunks than most others anyway, I think the palm ability gave them even a little more cushion.

Kobe only got 65 dunks per season during his prime? I thought Kobe averaged more than that, he is definitely one of the most fearless in-game dunkers.

[QUOTE=scm5]Kobe only got 65 dunks per season during his prime? I thought Kobe averaged more than that, he is definitely one of the most fearless in-game dunkers.[/QUOTE]
I think he said the 65/season number covers only 02-09. He might have gotten more in 99, 00, 01. basketball-reference.com is only accurate from 02-present (they have 01 data, but the play-by-play is incomplete).

[QUOTE=scm5]Kobe only got 65 dunks per season during his prime? I thought Kobe averaged more than that, he is definitely one of the most fearless in-game dunkers.[/QUOTE]
He made more statement dunks. Kobe had less vertical than Jordan, LeBron, and even Wade / T-Mac so you could see his determination on those drives to the rim when he was successful.

But even at Kobe's athletic prime circa 2000 - 2006 he often favored the jumper, and shyed away from taking it to the basket consistently. So it wasn't fearlessness. It's one of the reasons his FG% is like a 5 point drop from MJ / LeBron / Wade even if being a better shooter than all but Mike. It's also probably why he's had such longevity.

MJ's monster hands really did allow him a better opportunity at finishing at the rim with dunks considering he could palm it off the bounce. As well as his broad shoulders which could shed defenders. Combined with his 48 inch vertical, compared to Kobe's 38 inch vertical? And his stunning ability to leap off one foot, or two, and insanely quick bunnies getting off the floor ... particularly off jump stops. And an already quickest first step in history for his position? It's a no brainer as to why Jordan finished at the rim more than any other wing or guard in history.

Plus MJ was the most fearless of all.

[QUOTE=eliteballer]:oldlol: :oldlol: You're telling me VINCE CARTER isn't on this list? We want hard data and sources...

and stop posting gifs of MJ traveling like this:

[IMG]http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/1b4e16f6ea41edb27cbb7c901e4fa5e1.gif[/IMG]

Dude moves his feet 50 times before dropping the dribble.[/QUOTE]
Dude, you're just hating.....Its not a good look......

[QUOTE=Soundwave]Looking at 3ball's gifs it just strikes it home for me that not only is Jordan's pure vertical fairly impressive, but what's more notable about it is just the sheer speed he can rise up off the floor.

It just seems like he has springs in his legs, very difficult to guard when a guy can accelerate and leap off the floor so quickly, you can't angle him off. A lot of guys can jump high, but they need more time/space to gather themselves to do so, Jordan is almost like a video game cheat code the way he can elevate on a dime and get really good explosion on the jump from almost any leaping angle.

They must be putting something in the water in North Carolina.[/QUOTE]
Sums up Jordan PERFECTLY.........:applause:

[QUOTE=SamuraiSWISH]He made more statement dunks. Kobe had less vertical than Jordan, LeBron, and even Wade / T-Mac so you could see his determination on those drives to the rim when he was successful.

But even at Kobe's athletic prime circa 2000 - 2006 he often favored the jumper, and shyed away from taking it to the basket consistently. So it wasn't fearlessness. It's one of the reasons his FG% is like a 5 point drop from MJ / LeBron / Wade even if being a better shooter than all but Mike. It's also probably why he's had such longevity.

MJ's monster hands really did allow him a better opportunity at finishing at the rim with dunks considering he could palm it off the bounce. As well as his broad shoulders which could shed defenders. Combined with his 48 inch vertical, compared to Kobe's 38 inch vertical? And his stunning ability to leap off one foot, or two, and insanely quick bunnies getting off the floor ... particularly off jump stops. And an already quickest first step in history for his position? It's a no brainer as to why Jordan finished at the rim more than any other wing or guard in history.

[B]Plus MJ was the most fearless of all[/B].[/QUOTE]

Fearlessness is very important when it comes to getting posters.. Jordan and Dr. J had no fear, so they got the most posters.


[IMG]http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/052c0efce34c9d1cd7824c140a2a5b18.gif[/IMG][COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR][IMG]http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Michael_Jordan_showing_the_of_ad54d908ed26a7b5c927e16a93d1d5fd.gif[/IMG]

They both were also explosive off one or two legs and their physiques were conducive for sliding between defenders... and of course the big hands..
.