"Pippen was the best player in the world in 93, 94, 95" - Dennis Rodman

Scottie through Jan 30th 96( 42 games) was doing 22/7/6, 50% from the field, 44% from 3. He ended up doing 19/6/5 46%/37%. There was a second half drop off precipitated by nagging injuries. If he was healthy enough in the playoffs as he was in the first half of the year the Bulls would have probably swept the playoffs.

[QUOTE=Phoenix;14336050]Scottie through Jan 30th 96( 42 games) was doing 22/7/6, 50% from the field, 44% from 3. He ended up doing 19/6/5 46%/37%. There was a second half drop off precipitated by nagging injuries. If he was healthy enough in the playoffs as he was in the first half of the year the Bulls would have probably swept the playoffs.[/QUOTE]

Great job Phoenix. Now that with Jordan taking the lions share of shots, and having the league's leading rebounder on his team. In a slower pace, in a tougher defensive era.

[QUOTE=97 bulls;14336080]Great job Phoenix. Now that with Jordan taking the lions share of shots, and having the league's leading rebounder on his team. In a slower pace, in a tougher defensive era.[/QUOTE]

:cheers:

Not only swept the playoffs, but probably eclipsed the 72 wins. Ditto for the 97 squad, 69 wins with Rodman and Kukoc missing 25 or so games a piece. Team should have won 75 each season( hell the 98 squad won 62 with Scottie missing 38 games). Very easily could have had two seasons better than the Warriors 2016 season and unlike GS, closing the deal each time.

[QUOTE=Phoenix;14336050]Scottie through Jan 30th 96( 42 games) was doing 22/7/6, 50% from the field, 44% from 3. He ended up doing 19/6/5 46%/37%. [B][SIZE=3]There was a second half drop off precipitated by nagging injuries[/SIZE][/B]. If he was healthy enough in the playoffs as he was in the first half of the year the Bulls would have probably swept the playoffs.[/QUOTE]


^^^ that's the point - Jordan had to deal with an aging Pippen, who averaged 17 on 41% in the 96-98' Playoffs, while old Rodman averaged 4/8 in the 1997 Playoffs and wasn't the starter in 98'...

Otoh, Lebron didn't have to deal with aging teammates and got to refresh his cast every 4 years with the hottest young talent in the league..

It's fraud and the media is complicit in turning the league into WWE.. However, today's short-term, mercenary teamwork/collusions is a lower brand of basketball than the long-term, organic chemistry and identities developed in prior eras.... That's why the ratings are down - it's inferior basketball.

Btw, apparently Pippen was playing to 100% capacity in 1996 before he got hurt, so teammates played to full capacity alongside Jordan.. However, 22/5 isn't sufficient to carry a team, which is why the 95' Bulls were a bummy .500 team before MJ returned and carried them to another 3-peat.

[QUOTE=Phoenix;14335898]I do remember a Pip for MVP buzz in 96 before he got injured. I don't recall if it was a huge national discussion about it, but I do recall either a few articles about it or it got mentioned by broadcasters during some nationally televised Bulls game. How much of a thing I can't recall, this shit is 25 years old. But I do recall even MJ( by no means short on ego) himself pushing a Pippen4MVP thing at one point. It was a conversation that lost steam once Scottie got injured, but I do know he was damn good up to that point.[/QUOTE]

Pippen being pushed for MVP overrides David Robinson [I]actually[/I] winning an MVP award? I'm not saying you're saying this, but 97 bulls clearly is making the case that Pippen > Robinson between 1994-96. I can't really fathom that, lol.

[QUOTE=97 bulls;14335930]That's the funny thing. Every players gets a pass due to injury but Pippen. I cant quite figure out where all this vitriol for Pippen is coming from. I mean why does everybody get a pass for being injured but Pippen?[/QUOTE]

No one is claiming players get a pass. But when you're going to go with All-NBA votes or any voting, then you have to be on the court for them to give you votes.

Here's something to consider. Pippen was [B]All NBA 3rd team[/B] in 1998, but he missed [B]38[/B] games. Do you honestly think if Pippen was healthy that he'd get [I]less[/I] votes than Vin Baker (All-NBA 2nd Team)?

My point is that totaling votes for these awards without context does little justice to the discussion.

[QUOTE=HoopsNY;14336115]Pippen being pushed for MVP overrides David Robinson [I]actually[/I] winning an MVP award? I'm not saying you're saying this, but 97 bulls clearly is making the case that Pippen > Robinson between 1994-96. I can't really fathom that, lol.[/QUOTE]


Show me where he was good in the playoffs from 88-90' or 93-03'

Pippen is the worst playoff performer of all time given his ring count

[QUOTE=97 bulls;14336036]Heres another link where Pippen said he was banged up the last 4 months of the 95-96 season.

[url]https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.spokesman.com/stories/1996/jul/03/injuries-affect-pippens-pep-in-small-way/%3famp-content=amp[/url][/QUOTE]

97 bulls is the chicago bulls fans we didnt know we needed around here

he can make me respect mike more

3baLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL does the opposite which is funny becos of the agenda he drives

[QUOTE=3ball;14336121]Show me where he was good in the playoffs from 88-90' or 93-03'

Pippen is the worst playoff performer of all time given his ring count[/QUOTE]

Stay on topic.

[QUOTE=3ball;14336121]Show me where he was good in the playoffs from 88-90' or 93-03'

Pippen is the worst playoff performer of all time given his ring count[/QUOTE]

quick question to end your agenda and ish career

which #2 option would you trade scottie for? of all the teams you played who are you trading pippen for?

in 97 you trading pip for hornacek?
94 you trading pip for starks?
92 you trading pip for teryr porter?

you get the message baby girrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrl

[QUOTE=HoopsNY;14336120]No one is claiming players get a pass. But when you're going to go with All-NBA votes or any voting, then you have to be on the court for them to give you votes.

Here's something to consider. Pippen was [B]All NBA 3rd team[/B] in 1998, but he missed [B]38[/B] games.

Do you honestly think if Pippen was healthy that he'd get [I]less[/I] votes than Vin Baker (All-NBA 2nd Team)?

My point is that totaling votes for these awards without context does little justice to the discussion.[/QUOTE]




Winning rings every year gave Pippen accolades that weren't backed by actual performance, similar to Kobe's all-defense awards - they mean nothing - it's just an association with MJ that overrates Kobe and Pippen with undeserved accolades.

Ultimately, Pippen barely made top 50 all-time in 1996, and dozens of newer guys have passed him since, like Duncan, Kobe, Giannis, or Curry - so it's impossible that Pippen is top 30 today..

But unfortunately, new fans must do on-paper evaluations of older players, and Pippen's 6 rings simply stand out over the zero rings of Ewing or Giannis... This proves that Pippen is mis-ranked - the winning spotlight inflates him without the backing of actual performance.. He never played anywhere nearly as good as Giannis, Ewing, Kawhi, Harden or tons of guys that he's ranked ahead of.

[QUOTE=Phoenix;14336050]Scottie through Jan 30th 96( 42 games) was doing 22/7/6, 50% from the field, 44% from 3. He ended up doing 19/6/5 46%/37%. There was a second half drop off precipitated by nagging injuries. If he was healthy enough in the playoffs as he was in the first half of the year the Bulls would have probably swept the playoffs.[/QUOTE]

22/7/6 on 48-50% was his standard, with similar numbers on poor efficiency in the playoffs, even when healthy. We saw that in 1994 and 1995. How does that override what Ewing did, leading his team to a better record, or what guys like Robinson did, which included actually winning an MVP?

If Pippen was clearly the better player like 97 bulls is claiming, then Chicago had a better 1-2 punch in Pippen/Grant over Ewing/Starks. Yet somehow Chicago lost?

[QUOTE=And1AllDay;14336125]quick question to end your agenda and ish career

which #2 option would you trade scottie for? of all the teams you played who are you trading pippen for?

in 97 you trading pip for hornacek?
94 you trading pip for starks?
92 you trading pip for teryr porter?

you get the message baby girrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrl[/QUOTE]

None. He's a disingenuous fan. At best he might say Kemp or Penny, but that's a stretch because 1991-93 Pippen was better than those guys.

[QUOTE=HoopsNY;14336136]None. He's a disingenuous fan. At best he might say Kemp or Penny, but that's a stretch because 1991-93 Pippen was better than those guys.[/QUOTE]

penny on a 1 yr rental maybe but pippens girth for 8 years of service is unbeatable 91 to 98

kemp is a joke :oldlol: i hope

[QUOTE=HoopsNY;14336115]Pippen being pushed for MVP overrides David Robinson [I]actually[/I] winning an MVP award? I'm not saying you're saying this, but 97 bulls clearly is making the case that Pippen > Robinson between 1994-96. I can't really fathom that, lol.[/QUOTE]

Ah yeah there's nothing in my post that even remotely infers I'm talking about David Robinson, or anyone else really. Frankly the MVP topic is whatever, I do know that the term 'best non-center' was thrown around alot in reference to Scottie in that 94-95 period.

[QUOTE=And1AllDay;14336139]penny on a 1 yr rental maybe but pippens girth for 8 years of service is unbeatable 91 to 98

kemp is a joke :oldlol: i hope[/QUOTE]

You had to watch Kemp in the playoffs from '95-'97. The impact he brought against the likes of Malone, Barkley, Hakeem, and Rodman down low can't be ignored. Kemp was legit. But I still wouldn't take Kemp then as opposed to Pippen from 1991-94, per say.

[QUOTE=Phoenix;14336142]Ah yeah there's nothing in my post that even remotely infers I'm talking about David Robinson, or anyone else really. Frankly the MVP topic is whatever, I do know that the term 'best non-center' was thrown around alot in reference to Scottie in that 94-95 period.[/QUOTE]

I don't mean you. I'm asking you but in relation to the claims 97 bulls is making.

[QUOTE=HoopsNY;14336120]No one is claiming players get a pass. But when you're going to go with All-NBA votes or any voting, then you have to be on the court for them to give you votes.

Here's something to consider. Pippen was [B]All NBA 3rd team[/B] in 1998, but he missed [B]38[/B] games. Do you honestly think if Pippen was healthy that he'd get [I]less[/I] votes than Vin Baker (All-NBA 2nd Team)?

My point is that totaling votes for these awards without context does little justice to the discussion.[/QUOTE]

Pippen was injured too Hoops. Now were penalizing him because he played through injury unlike others? 22/7/6 on 50% shooting while running the number 1 rated offense and anchoring the number 1 rated defense and being the best defender in the league? That's great impact.

[QUOTE=97 bulls;14336147]Pippen was injured too Hoops. Now were penalizing him because he played through injury unlike others? 22/7/6 on 50% shooting while running the number 1 rated offense and anchoring the number 1 rated defense and being the best defender in the league? That's great impact.[/QUOTE]

You're dodging the premise of my post. The point is that Pippen not being All-NBA 1st or 2nd team via votes has nothing to do with ability when we look at 1998.

Similarly, it's unfair to look at 1994-96, collectively, while not considering the same for all the guys previously mentioned.

[QUOTE=HoopsNY;14336133]22/7/6 on 48-50% was his standard, with similar numbers on poor efficiency in the playoffs, even when healthy. We saw that in 1994 and 1995. How does that override what Ewing did, leading his team to a better record, or what guys like Robinson did, which included actually winning an MVP?

If Pippen was clearly the better player like 97 bulls is claiming, then Chicago had a better 1-2 punch in Pippen/Grant over Ewing/Starks. Yet somehow Chicago lost?[/QUOTE]

Dude, why do you keep bringing up other players in this manner? I was talking about what Scottie was doing for the first half of 1996. That's it. Why are you bringing Patrick Ewing or David Robinson into this? I havent referenced anything about Scottie in contrast to those guys in any posts above. You're bringing up talking points between you and 97 Bulls and injecting them into your replies to me. Can we keep replies within the context of what a particular post is saying?

[QUOTE=Phoenix;14336142]Ah yeah there's nothing in my post that even remotely infers I'm talking about David Robinson, or anyone else really. Frankly the MVP topic is whatever, I do know that the term 'best non-center' was thrown around alot in reference to Scottie in that 94-95 period.[/QUOTE]

In this video. Isiah Thomas says Pippen was the 2nd best player in the league after Jordan over the last 4-5 years. I believe he said that in 98.

[url]https://youtu.be/z1hfI8kjriM[/url]

[QUOTE=Phoenix;14336155]Dude, why do you keep bringing up other players in this manner? I was talking about what Scottie was doing for the first half of 1996. That's it. Why are you bringing Patrick Ewing or David Robinson into this? I havent referenced anything about Scottie in contrast to those guys in any posts above. You're bringing up talking about between you and 97 Bulls and injecting then into your replies to me. Can we keep replies within the context of what a particular post is saying?[/QUOTE]

Once again, I'm asking you (as an impartial person) in relation to what 97 bulls said. I should have specified that in my posts so please excuse me.

[QUOTE=HoopsNY;14336153]You're dodging the premise of my post. The point is that Pippen not being All-NBA 1st or 2nd team via votes has nothing to do with ability when we look at 1998.

Similarly, it's unfair to look at 1994-96, collectively, while not considering the same for all the guys previously mentioned.[/QUOTE]

I'm not dodging anything. I accepted your assertion that Barkley lost out in the All-NBA voting to Pippen because he was injured. I only said, SO WAS PIPPEN. Why are the standards different?

[QUOTE=HoopsNY;14336161]Once again, I'm asking you (as an impartial person) in relation to what 97 bulls. I should have specified that in my posts so please excuse me.[/QUOTE]

You're asking me do I think Scottie balling out for half the 96 season supersedes the Admiral winning MVP in 94? No, though I'm not sure what one really has to do with the other, but I only skimmed through some of the earlier posts hence why my comments weren't focused on Scottie vs player X. Mostly I'm just tired of the conversations around him( not your comments specifically) being dragged through the mud of camps on either side of the MJ/Lebron debate. You literally cannot discuss the guy here before the discussion goes to shit by the 3rd post.

[QUOTE=Phoenix;14336167]You're asking me do I think Scottie balling out for half the 96 season supersedes the Admiral winning MVP in 94? No, though I'm not sure what one really has to do with the other, but I only skimmed through some of the earlier posts hence why my comments weren't focused on Scottie vs player X. Mostly I'm just tired of the conversations around him( not your comments specifically) being dragged through the mud of camps on either side of the MJ/Lebron debate.[/QUOTE]

Fair enough

[QUOTE=97 bulls;14336160]In this video. Isiah Thomas says Pippen was the 2nd best player in the league after Jordan over the last 4-5 years. I believe he said that in 98.

[url]https://youtu.be/z1hfI8kjriM[/url][/QUOTE]

I always liked that vid. Theres another one, think 'Ultimate defender's or something like that that's a great watch too. You've probably seen it.

[QUOTE=Phoenix;14336171]I always liked that vid. Theres another one, think 'Ultimate defender's or something like that that's a great watch too. You've probably seen it.[/QUOTE]

I did see that video. What I find interesting is the comments. Stark contrast from what we see in this forum.

[QUOTE=97 bulls;14336179]I did see that video. What I find interesting is the comments. Stark contrast from what we see in this forum.[/QUOTE]

Admins allowed this forum to become a troll fest. Real, good faith basketball discussion occurs very far away from here.

[QUOTE=HoopsNY;14336115]Pippen being pushed for MVP overrides David Robinson [I]actually[/I] winning an MVP award? I'm not saying you're saying this, but 97 bulls clearly is making the case that Pippen > Robinson between 1994-96. I can't really fathom that, lol.[/QUOTE]

I'm saying Pippen was a top 5 player. Definitely in the conversation.

You seem to think that's preposterous. That he wasnt that highly regarded. That's when you get inundated with a plethora of information from Coaches, players, GMs, the media, and even fans. At some point, it's not cherry picking as you called it.

I mean, Pippen was getting praise by some of the most arrogant players the league has ever seen in guys like MJ and Barkley, perhaps his biggest enemy (Isiah Thomas) said he was the 2nd best player after Jordan over the last 4-5 seasons. We got more guys calling him what I call him than what you call him.

Maybe you need to reevaluate your assessment bro. I mean, theres no reason for people to lie for Pippen. Prior to MJs retirement, people were calling the Bulls a one man show. It was Michael and the Jordanaires. They saw the growth.

[QUOTE=Phoenix;14336188]Admins allowed this forum to become a troll fest. Real, good faith basketball discussion occurs very far away from here.[/QUOTE]

:lol:oldlol::roll::cheers:

[QUOTE=HoopsNY;14336143]You had to watch Kemp in the playoffs from '95-'97. The impact he brought against the likes of Malone, Barkley, Hakeem, and Rodman down low can't be ignored. Kemp was legit. But I still wouldn't take Kemp then as opposed to Pippen from 1991-94, per say.[/QUOTE]

pippen provided full service for 8 years man dont discredit that

anyone in the bball would kill to trade their #2 option for pipp

any team from the 90s would

[QUOTE=And1AllDay;14336223]pippen provided full service for 8 years man dont discredit that

anyone in the bball would kill to trade their #2 option for pipp

any team from the 90s would[/QUOTE]

Both Barkely and Drexler publicly said that Jordan had Pippen when he faced their teams. Barkely said it to his Jordans face. And Jordan never denied or argued it.

[QUOTE=97 bulls;14336241]Both Barkely and Drexler publicly said that Jordan had Pippen when he faced their teams. Barkely said it to his Jordans face. And Jordan never denied or argued it.[/QUOTE]

Barkley had Kevin Johnson, Danny Ainge, Dan Majerle, which is waaay more talent than Pippen and Grant.

[QUOTE=And1AllDay;14336125]

[B]of all the teams you played what #2 option are you trading pippen for[/B]?


[/Quote]


If I'm only allowed to compare Pippen to 2nd options, then you're conceding that he's already below elite 1st options like Ewing or Drexler.

So Ewing and Drexler are above Pippen.

Now let's talk 2nd options (below).



[QUOTE=And1AllDay;14336125]

of all the teams you played what #2 option are you trading pippen for?


[/Quote]


Stockton/Malone were old when they destroyed Shaq, Duncan and Hakeem to make the 98' Finals, so Stockton/MJ would've done the same thing and won every year, [I]especially PEAK stockton[/I].

Peak Stockton averaged 17/14 with 3 steals, so he would've won with MJ right away... And again, they would win in 98' as experienced, older players just like Stockton/Malone did..

Ultimately, Stockton has twice as many all-nba as Pippen with superior stats across the board (8th all-time in BPM) and won 50 games with deep runs for 20 years - so you're simply discounting Stockton's accomplishments because MJ stopped him from winning the title.. You're ranking by ring count (6 to 0), but stockton played FAR better than pippen ever did.

There's tons of other examples (below)



[QUOTE=And1AllDay;14336125]

of all the teams you played what #2 option are you trading pippen for?


[/Quote]


Pippen was outplayed by Penny in 95' and 96', who was viewed as superior... And the 96' Finals saw Pippen get destroyed by Kemp or Payton - Krause started trying to trade Pippen for Kemp after the series.. Pippen was trade bait a number of times.

Furthermore, Jordan had to deal with young Pippen, who was literally a bum in 88' and 89' - anyone would've been better than Pippen those years and he was easy to trade... 90' Dumars was all-nba and 1st team defense, while Pippen was nothing and outplayed in the ECF... Tons of GM's would've traded Pippen for Dumars at that time.

And there's tons of other examples... Larry Johnson (LJ) was the #1 pick in 92' and rode high for a while, including a destruction of Pippen in the 95' first round as 2nd option... Tons of GM's would've traded Pippen for Johnson if it was a solid deal around that time... Ditto for 97' Juwan Howard, who destroyed Pippen in the 1st Round and people were extremely high on him at the time.

[QUOTE=90sgoat;14336262]Barkley had Kevin Johnson, Danny Ainge, Dan Majerle, which is waaay more talent than Pippen and Grant.[/QUOTE]

That's not the way they saw it. Drexler had great teammates as well. I only stated that to show how Hall of fame players felt at that time.

[QUOTE=97 bulls;14336241]Both Barkely and Drexler publicly said that Jordan had Pippen when he faced their teams. Barkely said it to his Jordans face. And Jordan never denied or argued it.[/QUOTE]


The 92' Blazers and 91' Lakers had better-ranked defense, rebounding, and FAR more scorers than Bulls.

Those Blazers had 2 all-star scorers after Drexler, while a 3rd scorer (Jerome Kersey) was a frequent 20 ppg scorer and led the team in scoring for the 90' Western Playoffs - this allowed Drexler to average only 18 while making those Finals (stacked team).

In addition to having 4 scorers to only 2 for the Bulls, the Blazers had perennial all-defender Buck Williams, who was far superior to Grant.

And the 91' Lakers had 4 guys average 17+ in the Finals (4 scorers to only 2 for the Bulls)

Similarly, the 96' Sonics and 93' Suns had [U]far[/U] more scorers and nearly the same ranked defense.

Only the Jazz didn't have more talent than the Bulls

Not only was he never the best player in the NBA, I'd argue that he wasn't even top 5 in any of those seasons. He's was a top 10ish level player for most of his career.

[QUOTE=90sgoat;14336262]Barkley had Kevin Johnson, Danny Ainge, Dan Majerle, which is waaay more talent than Pippen and Grant.[/QUOTE]

:oldlol::roll::roll:

[QUOTE=3ball;14336332]The 92' Blazers and 91' Lakers had better-ranked defense, rebounding, and FAR more scorers than Bulls.

Those Blazers had 2 all-star scorers after Drexler, while a 3rd scorer (Jerome Kersey) was a frequent 20 ppg scorer and led the team in scoring for the 90' Western Playoffs - this allowed Drexler to average only 18 while making those Finals (stacked team).

In addition to having 4 scorers to only 2 for the Bulls, the Blazers had perennial all-defender Buck Williams, who was far superior to Grant.

And the 91' Lakers had 4 guys average 17+ in the Finals (4 scorers to only 2 for the Bulls)

Similarly, the 96' Sonics and 93' Suns had [U]far[/U] more scorers and nearly the same ranked defense.

Only the Jazz didn't have more talent than the Bulls[/QUOTE]

I see your point. The Suns and Blazers had a lot of depth. But that's not quite how sports works. Would you trade 5 Hinad Accords for 1 Lamborghini?

The Bulls were constructed differently. They had guys that were great at doing what was asked of them. They Didnt need Pax and Kerr to score 20 a night. They needed then to be the best sharpshooters in the game and they were. Theh didnt need their Centers to dominate offensively, they needed then to set good hard picks for Jordan and Pippen, rebound and play defense. And hit the open jumper. They didnt need Grant and Rodman to score 20/10. They needed them to play tough defense and rebound. And they were the best at it.

That's why I say the easy some evaluate these players is more video game type stuff. Not real life basketball.

[QUOTE=Sarcastic;14336483]Not only was he never the best player in the NBA, I'd argue that he wasn't even top 5 in any of those seasons. He's was a top 10ish level player for most of his career.[/QUOTE]

You are obviously entitled to your opinion. So tell us. Why do you think Pippen is so highly regard by so many? By the professionals?