1994 Pippen should have been mvp

[QUOTE=Whoah10115;14029366]Miller wasn't on the very shortlist in the 90s, but that only means the 90s were great.

It's reasonable to take Richmond over him, especially in a vacuum, because Richmond was one of the game's best players.

But Reggie was great. Terrifying to play against, and not just because a little me saw him do something crazy against us.

I saw an older him go off against the Nets, taking it to the rim in OT. Miller can stand against Ray and all the guards of that class.[/QUOTE]

My thoughts exactly.

Unlike someone on here who gets trigerred when Pippen gets compared to his peers as if he was some sort of irreplaceable legend who did no wrong.

Regularized Adjusted Plus Minus (RAPM) gives you a better "apples to apples" comparison of a player's impact since it incorporates everything they do to impact the game and is the same for everyone (e.g., it doesn't reward low usage catch and shoot types). For the players discussed the most here we have data starting in 1994. All these numbers are "plus" numbers, meaning they helped their teams while on the court.

[U]RAPM for Pippen, Ewing, Miller[/U]

1994: Pippen 3.7, Miller 3.6, Ewing 3.2
1995: Pippen 5.8, Ewing 3.6, Miller 2.4
1996: Pippen 5.5, Miller 3.6, Ewing 2.9
1997: Pippen 6.4, Ewing 5.7, Miller 1.8
1998: Miller 5.1, Pippen 4.7, Ewing 4.6

They all fall off after that. Miller is the best in 99', 00', Pippen in 01', Miller in 02', Pippen in 03'. Miller is ahead in 04' but both are net negative players by that point. Ewing was a net minus from 01' on.

It is pretty clear who the most impactful player of the group was when all were in their primes...no case, doe!

Let's broaden it out.

[U]RAPM Comparison 1994-1998[/U]

1994: Robinson 7.5, Malone 5.9, Hakeem 5.2, Pippen 3.7, Shaq/Barkley/Miller 3.6, Ewing 3.2, Penny 2.9, Payton -0.2
1995: Robinson 8.4, Pippen 5.8, Shaq/Penny 5.6, Malone 5.3, Hakeem 5.1, Barkley 3.9, Ewing 3.6, Miller 2.4, Payton 2.3, Hill 2.2
1996: Robinson 6.5, Penny 5.6, Pippen 5.5, Malone 5.1, Shaq/Hill 4.1, Hakeem 3.9, Miller 3.6, Barkley 3.1, Ewing/Payton 2.9
1997: Pippen 6.4, Ewing 5.7, Malone 5.2, Shaq 4.9, Payton 4.5, Penny/Hakeem 4.0, Hill 3.5, Barkley 2.9, Miller 1.8, Robinson 1.6
1998: Shaq 7.8, Malone 5.5, Hill 5.3, Miller 5.1, Pippen/Payton 4.7, Robinson/Ewing 4.6, Barkley 3.6, Hakeem 3.4, Penny 1.9

This is why you [U]never[/U] see "Pippen detractors" present any info for Pippen in the context of his peers. They know he will come out looking good so conceal the info.

It is always Pippen presented in a vacuum so scrutiny can be applied selectively to him. If you do it across the board, he comes out looking better--like the deception about his 94' playoff scoring/efficiency without reference to Robinson, Ewing, and Shaq's numbers in the same playoff run because they know Robinson, Shaq shrunk in the playoffs--losing 10 PPG and 8 PPG respectively--and Ewing's overall numbers aren't ground because he melted down in the finals. Yet they harp on Pippen who actually scored more in the playoffs than in the regular season.

Can you guys explain to me how a 34 year old Dominique Wilkins having suffered a ruptured achilles a few years back could get traded for a 23.7ppg 7.4rbs 4.2ast 1.3spg 1.4bpg Allstar ('94 Manning) While Pippen at 33 years old coming off six championship rings with the bulls gets traded for Roy freaking Rogers?

Here is how the three players fared in CORP (a measure of how much a player increases a random team's odds of winning a championship) over the 90's:

Miller: 8%, 9%, 8%, 9%, 10%, 10%, 8%, 8%, 8%, 8%
Pippen: 9%, 12%, 12%, 11%, 13%, 14%, 13%, 12%, 7%, 7%
Ewing: 16%, 14%, 12%, 11%, 10%, 8%, 7%, 8%, 4%, 4%

So a similar story. Miller lags behind the others when all are in their primes. When they decline due to injuries and aging Miller maintains and surpasses them by 99'. Ewing is ahead of Pippen in 90', 91'; they are equal in 92', 93' and Pippen is ahead of from from 1994-1999.

For reference, those percentages mean:

GOAT Season (30 percent or more chance of a title on a random team, or about +7 points per game on an average team)
All-Time Season (23-30 percent or +6)
MVP Season (17-23 percent or +5)
[B]Weak MVP Season (12-17 percent or +4)
All-NBA Season (8-12 percent or +2.5)
All-Star Season (5-8 percent or +1)
Strong Role Player (3-5 percent or 0)[/B]
Role Player (1-3 percent or -2 to -0.5)

A player known for the Migraine game, sitting out the last seconds of a playoff game, getting bullied mentally and physically by opponents, incessant trade demands because of a contract he himself signed, sabotaging his teams chances by having his surgery at the start of the season etc.

How does all this factor in improving a random teams chances of winning the championship?

Random advanced stats wont factor in the intangibles that a player brought to the table. That is the reason you see a player coming off six rings get traded for Roy freaking Rogers :roll:

Roundball is a statman, but dumb as rocks in true basketball conversations

[QUOTE=Reggie43;14029771]Can you guys explain to me how a 34 year old Dominique Wilkins having suffered a ruptured achilles a few years back could get traded for a 23.7ppg 7.4rbs 4.2ast 1.3spg 1.4bpg Allstar ('94 Manning) While Pippen at 33 years old coming off six championship rings with the bulls gets traded for Roy freaking Rogers?[/QUOTE]

Why was a reigning league MVP traded for 4 draft picks and a trade exception?

[QUOTE=Overdrive;14029952]Why was a reigning league MVP traded for 4 draft picks and a trade exception?[/QUOTE]

Still 4 picks better than what the Bulls got

[QUOTE]Why was a reigning league MVP traded for 4 draft picks and a trade exception?[/QUOTE]

It is more bad faith. The "trade" (de facto signed with Houston but Chicago did a sign and trade to give him an extra $20 million going away gift. In other words, since the decision was already made there was no "trade" value since Houston had no need to give anything up for a player that was coming anyway. Chicago did him a favor because Pippen brought them multiple rings, unlike others mentioned in this thread) was explained already. It is clear Reggie43 didn't watch back then but this was pointed out earlier, he still continues the TP. :oldlol:

When the real trade proposals Pippen was involved in were raised in another thread we heard silence (especially the one involving Kemp, which showed the GM's of both teams and the coach's of both teams viewed Pippen as clearly superior, as did "league observers").

The Wilkins thing is interesting. He is yet another player these people say was vastly better than Pippen. His team is tied for 1st place at the break (with Chicago), he is averaging 30 PPG--and they ship him away (to purgatory--the Clippers)? That is pretty damning. Yes, he was going to be a free agent at the end of the year but so was Kawhi and so was Manning himself. If you think you can win a chip with a superstar, you keep him. They didn't think Manning was a meaningful drop-off from Nique', an ATG scorer who did little else on the court. Yet Wilkins>>>Pippen, Kemp>>>Pippen when both their teams tell you they value them less than Pippen was valued by teams. Trade value doesn't count except for idiocy over a sign and trade of post-back injury Pippen.

Let's put a bow on the playoff scoring/efficiency TP. Here are the numbers for the top 5 in MVP voting. The change from their regular season production is in parentheses.

[U]1994 Playoff Efficiency/Scoring Comparison of Top 5 MVP candidates[/U]

Scoring: Hakeem 29 (+2), Pippen 23 (+1) Ewing 22 (-3), Shaq 21 (-8), Robinson 20 (-10)
TS %: Hakeem 57% (=), Pippen 52% (-2%), Shaq 52% (-9%), Ewing 50% (-5%), Robinson 47% (-11%)

Yet due to the Jordanstan fun-house mirrors, [I]Pippen[/I] is the one they are attacking on these grounds while advocating for Shaq, Ewing, Robinson over him in MVP . Not only that, Shawn Kemp. Who had another meltdown (a PF shooting 37% from the field) as his team lost to an 8 seed in an all-time choke. (Also, keep in mind Pippen was a SF and the others are all centers...)

Let's also use their fantasy "apples and oranges" are "apples and apples" and compare Robinson (a C) to Malone (a PF) in their series.

[U]Spurs (56 wins) vs. Jazz (53 wins) 1st Round[/U]

Robinson 20/10/4 47% TS
Malone 29/12/2 56% TS

They did not face each other, but under the logic presented here by multiple Pippen haters, Robinson got destroyed by Malone as his team lost 3-1. Ewing, at best, narrowly "outplayed" Pippen. Yet an argument for Robinson over Pippen in MVP is how their play compared to the other #1 option in their final series (no mention of Pippen "vs." Price, who went 15/2/5 on 46% TS).

Then we have Ewing actually getting annihilated by Hakeem in the finals (like he did in the RS against Hakeem and Robinson), Shaq struggling to outscore Rik Smits in a first round sweep to a 47 win team.

Yet Pippen is the one they are railing at for playoff declines, playoff efficiency, and playoff scoring? :roll: The most dishonest fan base in sports.

Walls of bullshit and still no answer why he was traded for Roy freaking Rogers. Are various intangibles whether positive or negative a foreign concept to Roundball "the stats guy"

[QUOTE=Bawkish;14029919]Roundball is a statman, but dumb as rocks in true basketball conversations[/QUOTE]

He’s not a stat man at all. He uses FG% as a measuring stick for scoring. :lol

Imagine getting traded for Roy Rogers one year then Cato and Walt Williams the next because of your toxic attitude but guess what those wont factor in Pippens value because Roundball only understands the game based on stats

If you take the totality of the arguments put forward in this thread against Pippen, the logical conclusion is Pippen should have finished 2nd, not 3rd in MVP, by that very (professed) criteria. :lol

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14030027]If you take the totality of the arguments put forward in this thread against Pippen, the logical conclusion is Pippen should have finished 2nd, not 3rd in MVP, by that very (professed) criteria. :lol[/QUOTE]
:lol

Hakeem
Robinson
Malone
Barkley
Ewing
are the only ones that year that have a case.

Finishing second in Mvp votes enroute to a second round exit does sound better :lol

Imagine him getting Mvp in 94 in the aftermath of the most famous 1.8 seconds in nba history :roll:

[QUOTE=Rico2016;14030399]:lol[/QUOTE]

The best part is they are so consumed with hatred towards Pippen and insecurity and fear regarding LeBron they can't even see it.

It is like taking candy from a baby. Just take their argument, apply to Pippen's peers and voila! Pippen comes out looking even better using their own logic. :roll:

The best part of the thread, though, is MJ stans admitting the Bulls with Pete Myers in place of MJ=the Knicks (the 90's Bulls' top competition) at full strength...

[QUOTE=Reggie43;14029341][video=youtube_share;Cgk24LrIeGk]https://youtu.be/Cgk24LrIeGk[/video]

Is this a player that is too dependent on team play to get going?

Shows his full arsenal with stepbacks, fadeaways, faceup drives runners etc.[/QUOTE]

wait a second...

in this video alone we see reggie do...

blow by 2 handed dunk
euro step finger roll layup
an assortment of floaters and tear drops off the dribble
chef style deep 3's
a fakeout, up and under dumble pump 3 (wtf)
backdoor cuts for layup

and this is all from ONE game??

:biggums:

How come everybody acts like reggie was a simple shooter?

He had a huge bag of tricks.

Speaking of Reggie, he must be better than Shaq, right--since he "outplayed" Shaq "head to head" in the playoffs (47 win team versus 50 win team for Shaq, therefore they must have been equal). Yet another reason to disqualify Shaq from MVP consideration under the professed Jordanian standard (Robinson, Ewing disqualified as well per MJ stan's own professed criteria). If Reggie>Shaq maybe he was as great as people think 25 years after the fact (he was a 1x all-star before Spike Lee)! :lol

ITT: Got dudes who cite Backpicks left and right for Pippen but ignore that very same source who used the same exact criteria when it comes to Miller, lol. You morons never change with the hypocrisy

That said, no. He shouldn’t have been MVP

Yes, because you must agree with every single sentence written by an author. :lol Even BP has Miller behind the other players being mentioned here and notes his peak wasn't top 50 all-time. Miller is higher than his low peak in BP due to longevity--he chugged along at a non-superstar but star level for a long time. That isn't what we are hearing. We are hearing Miller was this superstar who was flat out better prime versus prime compared to real superstars.

One side is presenting information and comparing it to his peers, others going on a "Pippen sucks" crusade presenting cherry picked information relative to him in a vacuum because they know what a holistic picture would look like.

The arguments that have been presented "against" Pippen lead to the conclusion--by MJ stans' own stated criteria--that he should have finished 2nd, not 3rd, in MVP but the echo chamber can't grasp how their own criteria applies to anyone else, drunk on hatred and insecurity as the specter of LeBron James looms.

[QUOTE=LostCause;14032118]ITT: Got dudes who cite Backpicks left and right for Pippen but ignore that very same source who used the same exact criteria when it comes to Miller, lol. You morons never change with the hypocrisy

That said, no. He shouldn’t have been MVP[/QUOTE]

That's not morons. :lol

thats just roundball.

he only uses stats when they fit his cherrypicked criteria.

What "cherry picked criteria"? Let's see your self-professed analytic powers explain this. :D

I have a consistent criteria, unlike you and others in this thread, who literally change your criteria from player to player, series to series, etc. :roll:

[B]1993-94 Pippen;

- 3rd in Plus/Minus
- 4th in PER
- 5th In Defensive Plus/Minus
- 5th In Offensive Plus/Minus
- 5th In Value Over Replacement Player
- 7th in Defensive Win Shares
- 7th in Win Shares
- 7th In Defensive Rating
- 9th in Win Shares Per 48 Minutes

And Lead his Team to 55 wins (two wins less than the prior season) WITHOUT MJ.[/B]

[QUOTE=Round Mound;14032255][B]1993-94 Pippen;

- 3rd in Plus/Minus
- 4th in PER
- 5th In Defensive Plus/Minus
- 5th In Offensive Plus/Minus
- 5th In Value Over Replacement Player
- 7th in Defensive Win Shares
- 7th in Win Shares
- 7th In Defensive Rating
- 9th in Win Shares Per 48 Minutes

And Lead his Team to 55 wins (two wins less than the prior season) WITHOUT MJ.[/B][/QUOTE]

A record so strong they can't make honest good faith, consistent arguments against it. :bowdown:

Strongest second round exit ever? :roll:

That is an actual example of fake/biased criteria. The same people who harp on a second round loss have been saying Shaq, Robinson (even Kemp in the WOAT 1st round loss :lol ) should have been higher in MVP than Pippen. So second round loss bad*; first round loss is fine. It is all #agenda driven. Same with the faux metrics of playoff scoring, playoff efficiency, or win-loss records (the poster who railed the most about that in this thread re Pippen and Ewing--days later--in another thread, concerning another player, suddenly wants to separate out 1) games missed by the star in question 2) games missed by his best teammate. Using his own new professed logic, Pippen>Ewing but with Pippen nothing counts but the full 82).

A real criteria is a criteria you apply consistently to every player.

Keep it coming. It is pure comedy to see Pippen haters (MJ stans and a handful of fake fans of other teams) careen from deceptive TP to deceptive TP (or even false TP, like pretending Pippen was on the Dream Team bubble) and get exposed again and again.

*If you lose to the Knicks in 7 in the second round you suck; if you lose to the Knicks in the next round (playing worse than the Bulls did) that is a heroic feat--per the same people.

Yep keep clinging to that 55 win second round exit :lol

It beats getting swept in the first round. :lol

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14032761]It beats getting swept in the first round. :lol[/QUOTE]

Pretty sure Pippen would rather get swept in the first round than be reminded of that last 1.8 seconds :roll:

[IMG]https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/c_fill,f_auto,fl_progressive,g_center,h_675,pg_1,q_80,w_1200/wso7atzo1ss5ob1z52zx.jpg[/IMG]

MJ stans not even trying to make a case anymore. :pimp:

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14032785][IMG]https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/c_fill,f_auto,fl_progressive,g_center,h_675,pg_1,q_80,w_1200/wso7atzo1ss5ob1z52zx.jpg[/IMG]

MJ stans not even trying to make a case anymore. :pimp:[/QUOTE]

The fact that you call me an MJ stan without me making a case for him is the best example of paranoia in this board

everyone is an MJ fan and/or an alt of one another to this guy. :oldlol:

he may have a case of mild schizophrenia.

Correct--Pippen haters almost to a poster happen to be Jordan fans (not something most of them will deny, only fake Pacers fans, so the faux concern over mentioning MJ fans hate Pippen is amusing). Pure coincidence, as is that the two players in question happened to be teammates. :cheers:

Tpols, I have no idea what you are. You hate Pippen but are all over the map so don't fit neatly into any camp. :lol

[QUOTE=tpols;14032805]everyone is an MJ fan and/or an alt of one another to this guy. :oldlol:

he may have a case of mild schizophrenia.[/QUOTE]

He probably does seeing the amount of threads he is simultaneously replying to, that shit is not healthy and is probably messing with his brain.

Rockball since the doc aired:
[IMG]https://i.giphy.com/media/kZp2U6hVWiH27mIOkZ/giphy.webp[/IMG]

How long before this sick puppy goes back into hiding? :lol And posts on his alts.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14032785][IMG]https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/c_fill,f_auto,fl_progressive,g_center,h_675,pg_1,q_80,w_1200/wso7atzo1ss5ob1z52zx.jpg[/IMG]

MJ stans not even trying to make a case anymore. :pimp:[/QUOTE]

Reduced to quibbling over what % of Pippen haters are in fact MJ fans. :lol As if whether it is 70%, 80% or 90% matters.

:hammertime:

i dont hate pippen... i'd have no reason to. i pretty much call it like it is.

[QUOTE=tpols;14032851]i dont hate pippen...[/QUOTE]

Yup, you just happen to be in every Pippen thread (it is the same posters--we aren't supposed to notice that and who the bulk of them are fans of) saying he sucks. :lol Anyway, you are in the (small) non-MJ/Pippen hater category.

It isn't just ISH. The same thing happens elsewhere. Just own the agenda (not directed at you tpols but the others). We all see it: Pippen sucked, MJ won by himself against giants (every other 90's star). We see it all over on social media, other sites, etc. daily and it isn't hard to see what the agenda driving it is. People can notice posting histories, people can click on social media profiles and see what comes up, etc.