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lebron is in better shape at this age than any player before him i can remember (attribute to that what you will)
more importantly you can't compare the league today to the league from the early 2000's. jordan had to contend with zone defense and zero spacing. wayy harder to score during that time.
and he still managed to put up 40 and 50 here and there.
[QUOTE=WhiteKyrie;14849768]LeBron is horrendous. Stands around all game. No defense. Cherry picks. Doesn’t even get back on defense. Needs to stiff arm and push and not get called for offensive fouls to get to the basket. Spams easy buckets. Is shooting like 36% outside just a few feet from the rim. It’s hilariously bad. And has been like this for years. He knows when and how to pad his box score, to fool people who don’t know what they’re watching. Much better than Jordan? Nah. On defensive grounds and consistency alone. LeBron just plays with far superior talent.[/QUOTE]
this
Wizards Jordan had more positive impact on a way worse team than Lebron has. That's a fact.
[QUOTE=Full Court;14849833]Wizards Jordan had more positive impact on a way worse team than Lebron has. That's a fact.[/QUOTE]
What are the facts there?
[QUOTE=Full Court;14849833]Wizards Jordan had more positive impact on a way worse team than Lebron has. That's a fact.[/QUOTE]
I agree wholeheartedly 100 percent
[QUOTE=ShawkFactory;14849845]What are the facts there?[/QUOTE]
Read the sentence immediately before the text that says, "That's a fact."
Lebron couldn't even make play in with peak Anthony Davis and prime Russell Westbrook both of which are mvp candidates and one won league mvp and is the all time leader in triple doubles and this despite being 2nd in odds to win it all.
[QUOTE=Full Court;14849954]Read the sentence immediately before the text that says, "That's a fact."[/QUOTE]
Yea it was was pretty heavily implied that I was referring to the sentence before. You made yourself what some call a declarative statement. As such, you should provide facts to support such a statement. Ya dig?
[QUOTE=ShawkFactory;14849845]What are the facts there?[/QUOTE]
Jordan was 30-30 with that Wizards team in 2002 and his cast was much worse than Lebron has now
And everyone who watched back then knows that the Wizards were 26-21 (surging 4 seed) at which point MJ got hurt and limped to 60 games before sitting out the rest of the season.
MJ was one of 3 guys getting 25/5/5 (27/6/6 in today's era) and had multiple game winners and numerous 40 or 50 point games due to pull-up ability that Lebron lacks... That's better than current Lebron
[QUOTE=ShawkFactory;14850116]Yea it was was pretty heavily implied that I was referring to the sentence before. You made yourself what some call a declarative statement. As such, you should provide facts to support such a statement. Ya dig?[/QUOTE]
For one, Jordan was still putting out effort on defense right up until the end. He had slowed down a lot, but he wasn't a revolving door getting blown by like Lebron is. His refusal to "waste" energy on defense is what makes Lebro a net negative. We all know he can still score.
Also, see 3ball's post above.
MJ shot 43% as a Wizard and barley hovered around 20 ppg. :roll:
LeBron even at his old as age gives you 25 a night on much greater efficiency.
[QUOTE=3ba11;14850186]Jordan was 30-30 with that Wizards team in 2002 and his cast was much worse than Lebron has now
And everyone who watched back then knows that the Wizards were 26-21 (surging 4 seed) at which point MJ got hurt and limped to 60 games before sitting out the rest of the season.
MJ was one of 3 guys getting 25/5/5 (27/6/6 in today's era) and had multiple game winners and numerous 40 or 50 point games due to pull-up ability that Lebron lacks... That's better than current Lebron[/QUOTE]
I remember early last season you used PER as an argument to why Wizards MJ > LeBron, once LeBron picked up his play and surpassed MJ in PER you ran away from that argument like a bitch.
MJ's PER with Wizards: 19.9
LeBron's PER last season and this season so far: 23.8
:roll:
I actually did a little research on the 02 Wizards. They had a 9 game win streak earlier on that helped a lot. The teams?
Rockets- 28 wins
Mavs- 57 wins (No Dirk in this game)
Grizzlies- 23 wins
Heat- 36 wins
Knicks- 37 wins
Raptors- 42 wins
Hawks- 33 wins
Magic - 44 wins (No Tmac. That was like a 7 win team without McGrady)
Knicks- 37 wins
Take that as you wish.
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14850190]MJ shot 43% as a Wizard and barley hovered around 20 ppg. :roll:
LeBron even at his old as age gives you 25 a night on much greater efficiency.[/QUOTE]
i wouldn't really compare the rough and tough zone defense era of the early 2000's against the you can't touch me space and pace no defense era of current year.
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14850191]I remember early last season you used PER as an argument to why Wizards MJ > LeBron, once LeBron picked up his play and surpassed MJ in PER you ran away from that argument like a bitch.
MJ's PER with Wizards: 19.9
LeBron's PER last season and this season so far: 23.8
:roll:[/QUOTE]
The problem with today's game is the top class of players is small and far superior to the middle class, who are mostly robotic 3-and-D guys created by the 3-pointer brand of ball.
Accordingly, great players have a greater edge over the lower classes of players (3-and-D robots) than previous eras did.. Lebron's edge over a 3-and-D pawn like Taureen Prince is greater than Jordan's edge over the lower class of player in 2002, who were still a diverse class of players (not 3-and-D robots/unskillsed)
[QUOTE=3ba11;14850197]The problem with today's game is the top class of players is small and far superior to the middle class, who are mostly robotic 3-and-D guys created by the 3-pointer brand of ball.
Accordingly, great players have a greater edge over the lower classes of players (3-and-D robots) than previous eras did.. Lebron's edge over a 3-and-D pawn like Taureen Prince is greater than Jordan's edge over the lower class of player in 2002, who were still a diverse class of players (not 3-and-D robots/unskillsed)[/QUOTE]
MJ played in a historically weak conference, you had the weak ass Nets make the Finals in both years he was in Washington. Couldn't even lead them to the playoffs. LOL.
I believe peak MJ > peak LeBron, but to say Washington MJ was better than current LeBron is laughable to me.
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14850199]MJ played in a historically weak conference, you had the weak ass Nets make the Finals in both years he was in Washington. Couldn't even lead them to the playoffs. LOL.
I believe peak MJ > peak LeBron, but to say Washington MJ was better than current LeBron is laughable to me.[/QUOTE]
you are free to have that opinion but using those bullshit stats doesn't help your case.
what i do know it that the early 2000's period was the hardest period to score in modern history. zone defense was allowed, physical play was allowed and teams weren't spacing the floor with multiple shooters yet. and yet jordan was still capable of going off for 40 and 50 with nothing but skill on his side.
lebron is currently playing is a much softer league where it's wayyy easier to score. not only that but in the era of small ball lebron sometimes ends up being the biggest and strongest player on the court by default, giving him a physical advantage that jordan never had.
i do think what lebron is doing is impressive, but i honestly think 40 year old jordan would also be a problem in this league. especially if he played with another all star and a solid cast of shooters.
[QUOTE=Baller234;14850201]you are free to have that opinion but using those bullshit stats doesn't help your case.
what i do know it that the early 2000's period was the hardest period to score in modern history. zone defense was allowed, physical play was allowed and teams weren't spacing the floor with multiple shooters yet. and yet jordan was still capable of going off for 40 and 50 with nothing but skill on his side.
lebron is currently playing is a much softer league where it's wayyy easier to score. not only that but in the era of small ball lebron sometimes ends up being the biggest and strongest player on the court by default, giving him a physical advantage that jordan never had.
i do think what lebron is doing is impressive, but i honestly think 40 year old jordan would also be a problem in this league. especially if he played with another all star and a solid cast of shooters.[/QUOTE]
It was harder to score, but I'm not giving MJ automatic points for playing under those conditions.
MJ's TS% in his Washington's years was only 48%, league average at the time was at 52%.
He was basically less efficient than your average NBA player at the time, not to mention by that point he didn't provide much defense and he was NEVER the playmaker LeBron was. It's pretty clear LeBron is better, and it's only LeBron haters who say otherwise.
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14850199]Washington MJ was better than current LeBron is laughable to me.[/QUOTE]
Before MJ got hurt at 39 years old, the 38-year old MJ > 38-year Lebron based on scoring, clutch, defense, ball control, brand of ball and winning (30-30 or 26-21 pre-injury)
Let me know when Lebron drops 40 and 50 like MJ did in a league that allowed 15 less ppg and lacked spacing or hands-off beginner format
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14850202]It was harder to score, but I'm not giving MJ automatic points for playing under those conditions.
MJ's TS% in his Washington's years was only 48%, league average at the time was at 52%.
He was basically less efficient than your average NBA player at the time, not to mention by that point he didn't provide much defense and he was NEVER the playmaker LeBron was. It's pretty clear LeBron is better, and it's only LeBron haters who say otherwise.[/QUOTE]
you guys are obsessed with made up advanced statistics that have little relevance over the actual game.
even if we were to concede ground to your ridiculous statistical argument, the difference between shooting 48% and 52% is negligible at best. it's hardly conclusive proof of anything at all.
lebron and his fans have been warped to focus on stats and numbers and nothing else.
[IMG]https://cdn0.sbnation.com/imported_assets/310120/news_lebron-james-check-my-stats-1.jpg[/IMG]
[QUOTE=Baller234;14850218]you guys are obsessed with made up advanced statistics that have little relevance over the actual game.
even if we were to concede ground to your ridiculous statistical argument, the difference between shooting 48% and 52% is negligible at best. it's hardly conclusive proof of anything at all.
lebron and his fans have been warped to focus on stats and numbers and nothing else.
[IMG]https://cdn0.sbnation.com/imported_assets/310120/news_lebron-james-check-my-stats-1.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]
You basically just described 3ball, a dude who is obsessed with stats. Dude was out here gloating that Washington MJ had a higher PER than LeBron early last year but went quiet when LeBron surpassed him in PER.
I just showed you MJ was less efficient than your average NBA player in his Washington years while also not providing not much else to other aspects of the game and your response was "stats don't matter". That's weak :oldlol:
Whenever baller tries to talk basketball he gets brutally embarrassed. He should stick to the political forum, although he gets brutally embarrassed there too at least he has chewing for backup.
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14850219]You basically just described 3ball, a dude who is obsessed with stats. Dude was out here gloating that Washington MJ had a higher PER than LeBron early last year but went quiet when LeBron surpassed him in PER.
I just showed you MJ was less efficient than your average NBA player in his Washington years while also not providing not much else to other aspects of the game and your response was "stats don't matter". That's weak :oldlol:[/QUOTE]
efficiency is something only stat dorks care about. that counts for made up advanced statistics as well.
the most efficient team doesn't always win. you can either play for numbers or you can play for results. i only care about winning and i don't care if you win efficiently or not.
and yes the difference between shooting 48% and 52% is negligible to the point where it shouldn't even be discussed. you're splitting hairs. if you wanna use this ridiculous number to insinuate that jordan wasn't a good shooter, even though he was killing teams from mid range, then by all means go ahead.
if jordan had another star player on that team of AD's caliber i.e. a potential top 10 guy in the league, the wizards with 40 year old jordan could have made the finals.
[QUOTE=RRR3;14850220]Whenever baller tries to talk basketball he gets brutally embarrassed. He should stick to the political forum, although he gets brutally embarrassed there too at least he has chewing for backup.[/QUOTE]
[SIZE=1][B]board disclaimer:[/B]
this post was brought to you by a user who believes a man can become pregnant.[/SIZE]
[QUOTE=Baller234;14850221]efficiency is something only stat dorks care about. that counts for made up advanced statistics as well.
the most efficient team doesn't always win. you can either play for numbers or you can play for results. i only care about winning and i don't care if you win efficiently or not.
and yes the difference between shooting 48% and 52% is negligible to the point where it shouldn't even be discussed. you're splitting hairs. if you wanna use this ridiculous number to insinuate that jordan wasn't a good shooter, even though he was killing teams from mid range, then by all means go ahead.
if jordan had another star player on that team of AD's caliber i.e. a potential top 10 guy in the league, the wizards with 40 year old jordan could have made the finals.[/QUOTE]
Only care about "winning", but ignores the fact that the Wizards went 37-45 with MJ. :oldlol:
And I don't know why you keep saying the difference between 48% & 52% isn't much when the gap between MJ & LeBron was far greater.
MJ had a 48 TS%
LeBron's TS% last season and so far this year is at 59%
That's a big gap.
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14850224]Only care about "winning", but ignores the fact that the Wizards went 37-45 with MJ. :oldlol:
And I don't know why you keep saying the difference between 48% & 52% isn't much when the gap between MJ & LeBron was far greater.
MJ had a 48 TS%
LeBron's TS% last season and so far this year is at 59%
That's a big gap.[/QUOTE]
and once again you are comparing two players across 20 years knowing full well that the league today is basically the globetrotters vs. the generals.
lebron didn't shoot above 50% until the 2009 season just as the league was transitioning into space and pace. before that he was sub 50% just like all the other elite wings.
[QUOTE=Baller234;14850231]and once again you are comparing two players across 20 years knowing full well that the league today is basically the globetrotters vs. the generals.
lebron didn't shoot above 50% until the 2009 season just as the league was transitioning into space and pace. before that he was sub 50% just like all the other elite wings.[/QUOTE]
The league transitioning to pace and space in 2009 is one of the most hilarious things I've ever read. You are dumber than a sack of hammers. Fully expecting you to start jerking off about trans people again because you have no actual arguments.
[QUOTE=RRR3;14850233]The league transitioning to pace and space in 2009 is one of the most hilarious things I've ever read. You are dumber than a sack of hammers. Fully expecting you to start jerking off about trans people again because you have no actual arguments.[/QUOTE]
not shocked a guy who can't tell a boy from a girl can't comprehend the basketball games he's watching.
[QUOTE=Baller234;14850231]and once again you are comparing two players across 20 years knowing full well that the league today is basically the globetrotters vs. the generals.
lebron didn't shoot above 50% until the 2009 season just as the league was transitioning into space and pace. before that he was sub 50% just like all the other elite wings.[/QUOTE]
We can compare their efficiency to their own league if you want.
MJ: 48 TS% . League Average: 52%
LeBron 58 TS% . League average: 58%
LeBron more efficient no matter how much you try to move the goal posts.
This dude is bringing up trans people in a debate about BASKETBALL. His mind is DISEASED.
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14850235]We can compare their efficiency to their own league if you want.
MJ: 48 TS% . League Average: 52%
LeBron 58 TS% . League average: 58%
LeBron more efficient no matter how much you try to move the goal posts.[/QUOTE]
oof, you mean lebron only has the 104th highest TS% in the league?
yikes, that must mean there are 103 players better than lebron.
[QUOTE=Baller234;14850238]oof, you mean lebron only has the 104th highest TS% in the league?
yikes, that must mean there are 103 players better than lebron.[/QUOTE]
Bottom tier reading comprehension yikes.
[QUOTE=Baller234;14850231]
lebron didn't shoot above 50% until the 2009 season just as the league was transitioning into space and pace. before that he was sub 50% just like all the other elite wings.[/QUOTE]
LeBron became more efficient because his jumper & post game improved considerably as he aged, for sure it got easier to score as he aged, but the league was not transitioning into space and pace in 2009, wtf. :oldlol:
That didn't come until the mid 2010's. Shit, you had the Lakers starting Bynum & Pau for much of the 2012 season, that same year OKC had Perkins & Ibaka in their starting lineup in the Finals, none of them attempted a 3 during the season.
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14850240]LeBron became more efficient because his jumper & post game improved considerably as he aged, for sure it got easier to score as he aged, but the league was not transitioning into space and pace in 2009, wtf. :oldlol:
That didn't come until the mid 2010's. Shit, you had the Lakers starting Bynum & Pau for much of the 2012 season, that same year OKC had Perkins & Ibaka in their starting lineup in the Finals, none of them attempted a 3 during the season.[/QUOTE]
The Pistons were starting Greg Monroe and Andre Drummond together as recently as 2015 :oldlol:
He's an absolute MORON.
[QUOTE=Baller234;14850238]oof, you mean lebron only has the 104th highest TS% in the league?
yikes, that must mean there are 103 players better than lebron.[/QUOTE]
MJ was at 169, much worse.
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14850242]MJ was at 169, much worse.[/QUOTE]
okay fine, i'm okay with this logic if you want.
under this logic, old man lebron is better than old man jordan because he's "more efficient".
yet under this same logic, that also means there are 103 players currently in the NBA better than lebron.
thanks for playing. this sure is air tight logic.
[QUOTE=RRR3;14850236]This dude is bringing up trans people in a debate about BASKETBALL. His mind is DISEASED.[/QUOTE]
[SIZE=1]let the record show RRR3 still refuses to acknowledge that men can't become pregnant.[/SIZE]
Why can't this dude leave his trans fetish out of NBA discussions? It's very disturbing.
[QUOTE=Baller234;14850243]okay fine, i'm okay with this logic if you want.
under this logic, old man lebron is better than old man jordan because he's "more efficient".
yet under this same logic, that also means there are 103 players currently in the NBA better than lebron.
thanks for playing. this sure is air tight logic.[/QUOTE]
Well, MJ was #10 in scoring in 2002 (25th in 2003), LeBron was #9 last season while also being more efficient. And that is only the scoring aspect, we all know LeBron is a far better playmaker than MJ.
One of the things that everyone agrees on is that peak MJ was a better scorer than LeBron, but Washington MJ can't even beat him in that department.
To say Wizards MJ was better is simply dumb :lol
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14850253]Well, MJ was #10 in scoring in 2002 (25th in 2003), LeBron was #9 last season while also being more efficient. And that is only the scoring aspect, we all know LeBron is a far better playmaker than MJ.
One of the things that everyone agrees on is that peak MJ was a better scorer than LeBron, but Washington MJ can't even beat him in that department. :lol[/QUOTE]
yea, this is great and all.... but that still leaves 103 players in the league who are more efficient than lebron james.
are they better? if not, how come? efficiency is super important right?