Jokic is the 4th best player of all time

I don’t know about 4th best player or all time. That’s obviously very subjective and often times nostalgia based. And we of course can never know what Jokic and Wilt would look like playing in the same league.

BUT…I got to thinking and he’s been pretty unanimously the best player in the world for about 3 years now. Rings can be luck based at times but looking through the lists of top guys…very few people have had a 3 year (and who knows when this even ends) run like that as a completely accepted BITW. You can’t count the amount of times that’s happened on two hands. Closer to 5 than 10 honestly.

[QUOTE=ShawkFactory;14990660]I don’t know about 4th best player or all time. That’s obviously very subjective and often times nostalgia based. And we of course can never know what Jokic and Wilt would look like playing in the same league.

BUT…I got to thinking and he’s been pretty unanimously the best player in the world for about 3 years now. Rings can be luck based at times but looking through the lists of top guys…very few people have had a 3 year (and who knows when this even ends) run like that as a completely accepted BITW. You can’t count the amount of times that’s happened on two hands. Closer to 5 than 10 honestly.[/QUOTE]

Exactly, everyone is denying it and trying to pivot to "bUt RiNgZ". It's pathetic.

[QUOTE=StrongLurk;14990806]Exactly, everyone is denying it and trying to pivot to "bUt RiNgZ". It's pathetic.[/QUOTE]

I get the rings argument depending on your criteria.

But when it comes to just basketball and how good you are? Jokic is up there for me. Best offensive player that I seen when it comes to impact.

[QUOTE=StrongLurk;14990296]Jokic isn't lazy on defense, that's ridiculous. He leads the league in deflections for 6 years in a row now (for centers), leads the league by far in kick balls, always good with steals, and has a really high BBIQ. He easily calls out and stops other offensive plays just through communication alone.[/QUOTE]
Noone is doubting his BBIQ, he is one of top 5 in BBIQ in NBA history. He has a ton of games where he eases on plays.

[QUOTE=hold this L;14991020]Noone is doubting his BBIQ, he is one of top 5 in BBIQ in NBA history. He has a ton of games where he eases on plays.[/QUOTE]

I'm not going to argue too much about this, because no player is perfect.

[QUOTE=StrongLurk;14991082]I'm not going to argue too much about this, because no player is perfect.[/QUOTE]

There's a difference between asking for perfection.. and this.
[url]https://x.com/_JasonLT/status/1909288743976251616[/url]

A whole section off one game only. 1-2 few are minor, but there's some legitimately pathetic defending happening here. You want to add the level of hype that comes with that level of player, and it will also come with scrutiny.

[QUOTE=hold this L;14991084]There's a difference between asking for perfection.. and this.
[url]https://x.com/_JasonLT/status/1909288743976251616[/url]

A whole section off one game only. 1-2 few are minor, but there's some legitimately pathetic defending happening here. You want to add the level of hype that comes with that level of player, and it will also come with scrutiny.[/QUOTE]
Elite defender according to OP :yaohappy:

[QUOTE=hold this L;14991084]There's a difference between asking for perfection.. and this.
[url]https://x.com/_JasonLT/status/1909288743976251616[/url]

A whole section off one game only. 1-2 few are minor, but there's some legitimately pathetic defending happening here. You want to add the level of hype that comes with that level of player, and it will also come with scrutiny.[/QUOTE]

I'm fine with scrunity. Jokic is an average defender when all things are considered (at least in the last 3-4 years, he as definitely bad his first couple of years in the NBA).

An average defender PLUS all the stuff he does on offense/rebounding makes him a GOAT. Jokic is the best scorer/rebounder/passer of all time in my opinion, even over Lebron. Lebron's advantage is on the defensive side plus GOAT longevity.

Considering what 40 year old LeBron is doing to the league I think if he was in his 20s rn people would laugh at the idea of Jokic being compared to him. But we’ve established OP is the buzzfeed of ish already.

[video=youtube_share;Q5roqoxL2qw]https://youtu.be/Q5roqoxL2qw[/video]

defensive genius :oldlol: more like the Luka Doncic of Centers :confusedshrug:

[QUOTE=ImKobe;14991103][video=youtube_share;Q5roqoxL2qw]https://youtu.be/Q5roqoxL2qw[/video]

defensive genius :oldlol: more like the Luka Doncic of Centers :confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]

Anyone can do this to any player. It's easy to cherry pick plays to make videos and fake narrative.

Jokic's peak is one of the top 5 most impactful peaks on record. It's not debatable.

[QUOTE=StrongLurk;14991104]Anyone can do this to any player. It's easy to cherry pick plays to make videos and fake narrative.

Jokic's peak is one of the top 5 most impactful peaks on record. It's not debatable.[/QUOTE]

half the plays are like from one game lol and a Game 7 at that.


I might even agree with the peak sentiment in terms of his production but he's an average defender and it's reflected in his team's defense being average or worse for most of his career and he's had solid players around him. Him and Murray are not good defenders and adding Russ wasn't going to help either. Thing is though an ATG Center should be great defensively or that's usually how it goes but he's the exception.

Jesus that video is damning. But but his DPBM!!!!!

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and anyone who takes that the wrong way....you know why they take it the wrong way

- Most points conceded ever in a an NBA playoff half.
- 16/19 FG made in the paint at the half.


He's one of the best offensive weapons in NBA history but a terrible defender.

[QUOTE=hold this L;15002679]- Most points conceded ever in a an NBA playoff half.
- 16/19 FG made in the paint at the half.


He's one of the best offensive weapons in NBA history but a terrible defender.[/QUOTE]


I was gonna make a post about "10 years of on/off data says one thing, but one half of basketball says another, how could you think..."

But at some point you have to let people be fools. I cant make this poster more intelligent. I can correct him on one stupidity but tomorrow there will be another. And another the next day and on and on. I'd end up spending a life time.

Ive gotta be willing to let people be stupid now. I cant invest the time. I wont argue.

[QUOTE=tpols;14990301]Jokic and Curry are like mirrors of themselves from opposite ends of the positional line up spectrum.

Both offensive dynamos, Yolk more consistent, Chef more explosive, both above average defense impact despite an incorrect stigma that exists.

Both top 10 GOATs at the end of their careers. Guys like Magic and Bird are kind of slipping a little because you can't cry defense there when we pull the playoff numbers.[/QUOTE]

It’s pretty true

[QUOTE=hold this L;15002679]- Most points conceded ever in a an NBA playoff half.
- 16/19 FG made in the paint at the half.


He's one of the best offensive weapons in NBA history but a terrible defender.[/QUOTE]

He’s not a bad defender. He’s decent.

Some do the same thing they do with Curry, he has physical limitations so people assume he’s Steve Nash on D when really he’s above average. Same with Jokic where they act like he’s worse than Charles Barkley on D when he’s actually not.

[QUOTE=warriorfan;15002681]It’s pretty true



He’s not a bad defender. He’s decent.

Some do the same thing they do with Curry, he has physical limitations so people assume he’s Steve Nash on D when really he’s above average. Same with Jokic where they act like he’s worse than Charles Barkley on D when he’s actually not.[/QUOTE]
The GM should have focused to give him defenders instead of more hoopers because of his limitations. People do the same with guards but not being a good defender at center is far more pivotal than other areas.

Denver needs to pack MPJ this summer for Wiggins and 1-2 picks. One of the best POA defenders in the league who can score 13-16 at solid efficiency.

[QUOTE=hold this L;15002687]The GM should have focused to give him defenders instead of more hoopers because of his limitations. People do the same with guards but not being a good defender at center is far more pivotal than other areas.

Denver needs to pack MPJ this summer for Wiggins and 1-2 picks. One of the best POA defenders in the league who can score 13-16 at solid efficiency.[/QUOTE]

I agree. Nuggets probably could have done better. But the new CBA thing with the aprons make it really hard.

4th best player ever (who is Bill Belichick on defense BTW) gave up 87 points in a half and got blown out almost by a historic margin. Apparently he's better than Hakeem (who was a basic iso scorer and didn't elevate his team).

[QUOTE=hold this L;15002679]- Most points conceded ever in a an NBA playoff half.
- 16/19 FG made in the paint at the half.


He's one of the best offensive weapons in NBA history but a terrible defender.[/QUOTE]

He isn't even close to a terrible defender. Above average, and that was on full display in the Clippers series. Kawhi and Powell didn't ever really take him on due to his length and size.

Such a lazy narrative because he is a big white a-typical player.

The idiots like ImKobe calling him the Luka Doncic of 5 men is idiotic. Luka is a flat out terrible defender, where as Jokic doesn't even come close to that.

This is how you know Jokic is a GOAT already.

He'll have 9 amazing games in a row, a bad 10th game, and the sky is falling down lol.

The problem with nitpicking like this is that you can literally nitpick every all time great. Every single player in the top 10 has bad playoff games, series, etc.

[QUOTE=ImKobe;15002708]4th best player ever (who is Bill Belichick on defense BTW) gave up 87 points in a half and got blown out almost by a historic margin. Apparently he's better than Hakeem (who was a basic iso scorer and didn't elevate his team).[/QUOTE]

Denver already got the split and HCA now. They sold that game. Doesn't matter whether you lose by 1 or 50. Next game is clean slate and @ home. :rockon:

[QUOTE=StrongLurk;15002748]This is how you know Jokic is a GOAT already.

He'll have 9 amazing games in a row, a bad 10th game, and the sky is falling down lol.

The problem with nitpicking like this is that you can literally nitpick every all time great. Every single player in the top 10 has bad playoff games, series, etc.[/QUOTE]

Lol that's not how it works guy. Joker's book is still being written. Sure Jordan probably had some rare off nights but we know how the story ends so it doesn't matter. 6 finals, 6 wins, 6 FMVP's.

You have no idea how this is all going to end for Joker. The Nuggets might lose this series in horrific fashion. You guys need to ease up on the GOAT talk because you're putting impossible standards on him.

And again I say this as a fan of Joker who's rooting for Denver in that series.

[QUOTE=Baller234;15002756]Lol that's not how it works guy. Joker's book is still being written. Sure Jordan probably had some rare off nights but we know how the story ends so it doesn't matter. 6 finals, 6 wins, 6 FMVP's.

You have no idea how this is all going to end for Joker. The Nuggets might lose this series in horrific fashion. You guys need to ease up on the GOAT talk because you're putting impossible standards on him.

And again I say this as a fan of Joker who's rooting for Denver in that series.[/QUOTE]

I'm saying A GOAT, not THE GOAT.

Nowadays, saying "a GOAT" generally means a generational/top-10 like talent, which is what Jokic 100% is.

[QUOTE=StrongLurk;15002760]I'm saying A GOAT, not THE GOAT.

Nowadays, saying "a GOAT" generally means a generational/top-10 like talent, which is what Jokic 100% is.[/QUOTE]

Lol you can't be in the GOAT debate if you don't have a claim for being greatest of all time.

He is MANY rings away from being able to make that claim :oldlol:


I would say Jokic right now is a GOHT (greatest of HIS time) with room to improve.

[QUOTE=Baller234;15002761]Lol you can't be in the GOAT debate if you don't have a claim for being greatest of all time.

He is MANY rings away from being able to make that claim :oldlol:


[B]I would say Jokic right now is a GOHT (greatest of HIS time) with room to improve.[/B][/QUOTE]

Well I explained that the bolded is exactly what I meant. You just worded it differently.

[QUOTE=plowking;15002743]He isn't even close to a terrible defender. Above average, and that was on full display in the Clippers series. Kawhi and Powell didn't ever really take him on due to his length and size.

Such a lazy narrative because he is a big white a-typical player.

The idiots like ImKobe calling him the Luka Doncic of 5 men is idiotic. Luka is a flat out terrible defender, where as Jokic doesn't even come close to that.[/QUOTE]

That's fair, he's nowhere near as bad as Luka. I think the issue is that he plays the center position. So even if he's not as bad, it has a strong effect on the team. Denver GM needs to put more defensive players around him this summer. Their offense might suffer but they will have a much more well rounded team for championship runs.

[QUOTE=tpols;15002750]Denver already got the split and HCA now. They sold that game. Doesn't matter whether you lose by 1 or 50. Next game is clean slate and @ home. :rockon:[/QUOTE]
We gon a act like OKC didn't give away game 1?

Denver are a solid team but OKC are more than capable to win a game or 2 in Denver.

[QUOTE=k0kakw0rld;15002824]We gon a act like OKC didn't give away game 1?

Denver are a solid team but OKC are more than capable to win a game or 2 in Denver.[/QUOTE]

Chokers gonna choke. Could say same thing about Boston and Cleveland with how they gave up leads at last second. The thunder are better because of their bench. But still gotta do it and win it. Lesser teams have won because of a choke. Like 2011 NBA Finals.

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;14984726]Imo these guys are in the true GOAT tier peak

Jordan
LeBron
Kareem
Hakeem
Shaq
Wilt
Jokic

I'm not sure where I'd rank Jokic amongst these guys yet, but I agree with OP that he belongs.[/QUOTE]

Kawhi

Jokic will get the Wade treatment probably. Wade arguably the best SG of all time but beceause he came after they'll never give him GOAT status. It has nothing to do with skill or accolades.

[QUOTE=04mzwach;15005124]Jokic will get the Wade treatment probably. [B]Wade arguably the best SG of all time[/B] but beceause he came after they'll never give him GOAT status. It has nothing to do with skill or accolades.[/QUOTE]
Lol.

You're dead wrong on the rest too as Jokic has been remarkably durable for a man of his stature while even in his prime, Wade was consistently getting injured. He's also a 3x MVP, has been considered the BITW for 4-5 years now, and he has Jordan/LeBron level stats and advanced metrics, all things Wade never achieved. It was frankly just a terrible analogy all around.

The best comparison for Wade is Kawhi, both injury prone guys who peak for peak were better than a lot of the guys they'll end up being ranked behind.

[QUOTE=04mzwach;15005124]Jokic will get the Wade treatment probably. [B]Wade arguably the best SG of all time[/B] but beceause he came after they'll never give him GOAT status. It has nothing to do with skill or accolades.[/QUOTE]

[IMG]https://media3.giphy.com/media/J2DYCDA15pTau86IGr/giphy.gif?cid=6c09b9528xg3dbkx235jl3t1hfywxr700qb1guqiy6rlu7ax&ep=v1_gifs_search&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g[/IMG]

Caruso “hold my beer”

He is not.
NBA loses either way with their MVP pick this year.

- A chubby no rim protection, all time great offensive maestro, with a very strange looking, but extremely effective game.

- A skinny, gay, super efficient version of Harden with way less 3’s and much less impressive passing. And a woman’s face.

Jokic being guarded by Caruso should make people re-think. The way LeBron was crucified being guarded by JJ Barea and outs cored by Jason Terry.

[QUOTE=BarberSchool;15006750]He is not.
NBA loses either way with their MVP pick this year.

- A chubby no rim protection, all time great offensive maestro, with a very strange looking, but extremely effective game.

- A skinny, gay, super efficient version of Harden with way less 3’s and much less impressive passing. And a woman’s face.[/QUOTE]
You are a moron. Acting like you are some type of eye candy. You watching basketball to see who's sexy or nah? Are you dumb?

[QUOTE=k0kakw0rld;15006778]Jokic being guarded by Caruso should make people re-think. The way LeBron was crucified being guarded by JJ Barea and outs cored by Jason Terry.[/QUOTE]

Nah, it shouldn't. Caruso is an all-nba defender and OKC arguably has the best defense over the last 25 years. They have a ton of elite defenders and Jokic still managed 28/14/6 on 59.2 TS%.

Guys like MJ, Kareem, Lebron, etc have all had many worse playoff series.

[QUOTE=BarberSchool;15006750]He is not.
NBA loses either way with their MVP pick this year.

- A chubby no rim protection, all time great offensive maestro, with a very strange looking, but extremely effective game.

- A skinny, gay, super efficient version of Harden with way less 3’s and much less impressive passing. And a woman’s face.[/QUOTE]
You are a moron. Acting like you are some type of eye candy. You watching basketball to see who's sexy or nah? Are you dumb?