Better at basketball, Jokić or Kobe?

[QUOTE=Baller234;15031597]Hey genius, nobody cared about efficiency back then. Analytics didn't exist. Teams were just trying to win.

The game was physical. Defense was tough. Spacing didn't exist. It was a lot harder to create "efficient" shots. Teams had specialists but they didn't have balanced scoring SEVEN guys down the roster. The Lakers didn't have a ton of skilled guys outside of Kobe and Gasol. They had RELIABLE guys but not very skilled. D-Fish wasn't skilled. Lamar Odom? Eh... he was a jack of all trades ace of none type. A poor man's Pippen but who might not even be as good as Horace Grant. Horace Grant could at least give you tenacious defense on the other end. Ron Artest? Definitely helps out on defense, definitely gives you an edge, but not someone you could call "skilled". Andrew Bynum?? Big, strong... not really "skilled". Semi skilled maybe. The guys today are surrounded by nothing BUT skilled players. Guys you can't leave open. Guys who could run, pass and shoot. Every single guy on the floor is a threat to score at any given moment. The teams that actually do have great 1 on 1 players are at an extreme advantage.

The fact that you would look at someone who has such a decorated career, a guy who was basically worshiped by his own peers even before he died, a guy who most players and coaches from that era say is one of the best to ever do it... and all you could focus on is "efficiency". And not even real efficiency, "advanced" efficiency. Even though in real time nobody fukking cared because all he did was [B]win[/B].

It's pure brain damage.[/QUOTE]
You’re the one trying to rank him second all time. So yeah stats do matter when you want to compare him to those guys. And frankly his stats don’t measure up to guys like Kareem, Wilt, and LeBron. Eve someone like Curry who I’m sure you think isn’t that good cuz he’s modern is pretty clearly better based off impact data.

[QUOTE=RRR3;15031601]You’re the one trying to rank him second all time. So yeah stats do matter when you want to compare him to those guys. And frankly his stats don’t measure up to guys like Kareem, Wilt, and LeBron. Eve someone like Curry who I’m sure you think isn’t that good cuz he’s modern is pretty clearly better based off impact data.[/QUOTE]

Comparing 60's stats to 00's stats to 20's stats. :oldlol:

[QUOTE=Baller234;15031604]Comparing 60's stats to 00's stats to 20's stats. :oldlol:[/QUOTE]
Okay take out Wilt if you want. But the thing is we have impact data for Kobe’s entire career and he definitely didn’t stack up to his contemporaries in Shaq Duncan and LeBron.

Still not seeing any case for Kobe over the other two or Shaq, Magic, Hakeem, Duncan or Curry. Maybe you can argue him versus Bird since Bird had a lot of playoff stinkers too. And while I think Kobe is still ahead of Jokic on the GOAT list due to longevity, that should change as well unless Jokic has truly awful longevity (which is always possible).

[QUOTE=RRR3;15031605]Okay take out Wilt if you want. Still not seeing any case for Kobe over the other two or Shaq, Magic, Hakeem, Duncan or Curry. Maybe you can argue him versus Bird since Bird had a lot of playoff stinkers too[/QUOTE]

Comparing 80's stats to 00's stats to 20's stats. :oldlol:

You literally have no idea how to talk about basketball without stats. Probably because you never played growing up.

[QUOTE=warriorfan;15031580]I don’t care what stats say Kobe had a great game 7 win vs Boston. I know you trolls just spam 7/24 or whatever it is because you didn’t even watch it but yeah[/QUOTE]

Rondo even credited Kobe for his tenacious defense on Ray and [I]himself[/I]. Kendrick Perkins also recently claimed Kobe's rebounding was one of the biggest reasons that LA won. I personally wouldn't argue his G7 was "great", but given the context it wasn't horrific like stat nerds claim.

I also want to dive deeper into Kobe's elimination games. Baller234 made an interesting post regarding Kobe's early years (before he began and entered his prime). Looking at the numbers in elimination games, Prime Kobe actually averaged 25 on 41% shooting. And if you removed that elimination game 7 vs Houston (LA was already up 20+ in the 2nd quarter :oldlol:), his averages would be 26 on 41%. I didn't calculate the assists or rebounding, but looking at the stats, Kobe was pretty good there too. These numbers also don't tell you about defense and we know in big games Kobe revved it up on that end.

Tallying everything up, I think Kobe was alright in elimination games. Not bad or great. Numbers should always be put into proper perspective though.

[QUOTE=Baller234;15031606]Comparing 80's stats to 00's stats to 20's stats. :oldlol:

You literally have no idea how to talk about basketball without stats. Probably because you never played growing up.[/QUOTE]
Are you seriously too dim to realize we have impact data so we can compare different eras? Even if you just compare Kobe to the guys in his own era he was clearly behind Shaq Duncan and LeBron. How can he be top 2 then? All you have are personal attacks and emotional meltdowns while I have data.

[QUOTE=RRR3;15031609]Are you seriously too dim to realize we have impact data so we can compare different eras? Even if you just compare Kobe to the guys in his own era he was clearly behind Shaq Duncan and LeBron. How can he be top 2 then? All you have are personal attacks and emotional meltdowns while I have data.[/QUOTE]

You only interpret it as a personal attack because you know it's true. You didn't play. You were never a student of the game.

[QUOTE=Tavr;15031608]Rondo even credited Kobe for his tenacious defense on Ray and [I]himself[/I]. Kendrick Perkins also recently claimed Kobe's rebounding was one of the biggest reasons that LA won. I personally wouldn't argue his G7 was "great", but given the context it wasn't horrific like stat nerds claim.

I also want to dive deeper into Kobe's elimination games. Baller234 made an interesting post regarding Kobe's early years (before he began and entered his prime). Looking at the numbers in elimination games, Prime Kobe actually averaged 25 on 41% shooting. And if you removed that elimination game 7 vs Houston (LA was already up 20+ in the 2nd quarter :oldlol:), his averages would be 26 on 41%. I didn't calculate the assists or rebounding, but looking at the stats, Kobe was pretty good there too. These numbers also don't tell you about defense and we know in big games Kobe revved it up on that end.

Tallying everything up, I think Kobe was alright in elimination games. Not bad or great. Numbers should always be put into proper perspective though.[/QUOTE]

I remember that game vividly still and it was a slow paced defensive grinding game. Boston had an elite D anchored by Kevin Garnet. Kobe obviously knew he was struggling to get good looks and his shot wasn’t falling, a lot of guys curl up when they start feel that happening but he went even harder instead. He got active on the boards and was playing nasty point of attack defense but what was a game changer was during the game Kobe made an adjustment and started sagging off Rondo more and more….allowing him to help defend all over the place. That was one of the big shifts of the game when Kobe started doing that.


So I am not saying throw out stats. Stats are obviously a great tool of measure when used properly. But like you said they need to get put in the proper perspective and recognize the context as well. It’s super hard to cross compare stats across eras but you can make it a little better with pace adjustment and some other tweaks.

Nothing replaces watching the game. I know there aren’t enough hours of the day to watch all the games of even your favorite team. But the more you watch the more you really get a better take on everything. Stats are great but they can only take you so far in terms of seeing the total picture.

[QUOTE=warriorfan;15031629]I remember that game vividly still and it was a slow paced defensive grinding game. Boston had an elite D anchored by Kevin Garnet. Kobe obviously knew he was struggling to get good looks and his shot wasn’t falling, a lot of guys curl up when they start feel that happening but he went even harder instead. He got active on the boards and was playing nasty point of attack defense but what was a game changer was during the game Kobe made an adjustment and started sagging off Rondo more and more….allowing him to help defend all over the place. That was one of the big shifts of the game when Kobe started doing that.


So I am not saying throw out stats. Stats are obviously a great tool of measure when used properly. But like you said they need to get put in the proper perspective and recognize the context as well. It’s super hard to cross compare stats across eras but you can make it a little better with pace adjustment and some other tweaks.

Nothing replaces watching the game. I know there aren’t enough hours of the day to watch all the games of even your favorite team. But the more you watch the more you really get a better take on everything. Stats are great but they can only take you so far in terms of seeing the total picture.[/QUOTE]

This is a really good post. We're in full agreement :applause:

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;15031456]Career elimination game numbers

[IMG]https://fadeawayworld.net/.image/ar_16:9%2Cc_fill%2Ccs_srgb%2Cq_auto:good%2Cw_1200/MjAwNzIxNzUzMjMwNTUwMjIw/376375365_195247706906896_6442094620287754401_n.png[/IMG][/QUOTE]

Yeah not only that but look at how impressive Jokic's 4-1 record in the finals is compared to Kobe's 23-14.

The PERCENTAGES are so much more impressive than the VOLUME. :facepalm

[QUOTE=Baller234;15031615]You only interpret it as a personal attack because you know it's true. You didn't play. You were never a student of the game.[/QUOTE]
I’ve played and you don’t need to play to know Kobe is overrated. All your arguments are terrible you just rely on emotions and claim stats are biased against poor Kobe :lol

[QUOTE=RRR3;15031653][B]I’ve played[/B] and you don’t need to play to know Kobe is overrated. All your arguments are terrible you just rely on emotions and claim stats are biased against poor Kobe :lol[/QUOTE]


:roll:

Thats the laugh I needed to start the day. Just imagining your goofy fro swaying in the wind, a look of bewilderment on your face as everyone just runs around you, fumbling and stumbling whenever [if ever] you get the ball. Man that would be a sight to behold.

[QUOTE=RRR3;15031653]I’ve played and you don’t need to play to know Kobe is overrated. All your arguments are terrible you just rely on emotions and claim stats are biased against poor Kobe :lol[/QUOTE]

No one that grew up playing the game would have such blind allegiance to "data" like you do. It appears to be your only avenue of knowledge. It's the only thing you're interested in talking about.

Stats are just the tip of the iceberg. The raw numbers are what's visible on the surface, but the bulk of what shapes those numbers lie hidden beneath. A bucket scored during the first two minutes of the game is "tallied" the same as a bucket during scored during the last two minutes, but we all know the last two minutes are a much harsher environment to score in. That's just ONE of the countless things the raw numbers don't take into account.

Not to mention you're holding players from the past to a current standard that didn't exist. 60s/70/80s/90s/00s/10s/20s, none of these eras were the same. You can't just stack the numbers side by side and draw your own conclusions.

[QUOTE=Baller234;15031658]No one that grew up playing the game would have such blind allegiance to "data" like you do. It appears to be your only avenue of knowledge. It's the only thing you're interested in talking about.

Stats are just the tip of the iceberg. The raw numbers are what's visible on the surface, but the bulk of what shapes those numbers lie hidden beneath. A bucket scored during the first two minutes of the game is "tallied" the same as a bucket during scored during the last two minutes, but we all know the last two minutes are a much harsher environment to score in. That's just ONE of the countless things the raw numbers don't take into account.

Not to mention you're holding players from the past to a current standard that didn't exist. 60s/70/80s/90s/00s/10s/20s, none of these eras were the same. You can't just stack the numbers side by side and draw your own conclusions.[/QUOTE]
Maybe you’re unaware but this data is what NBA teams use to build their roster. Some impact data isn’t publicly available because NBA teams don’t want others to see it in fact. If teams built it based on vibes like you? They’d be terrible. I hate to break it to you but the “nerds” won. That’s how teams get built across sports now. Watch the movie moneyball. People with your primitive mindset got phased out from making decisions in team building.

Smart teams analyze data and don’t base it on who they have a crush on like you do. I get that Kobe made you feel all tingly inside when he made a contested midrange shot but you can’t just ignore stats because they don’t support your loverboy. We can just compare him to his contemporaries and he comes up short so you trying to deflect to other eras is funny considering you have no real argument for how he was better than Shaq LeBron or Duncan besides “clutch bucket getter” or whatever when we already established he wasn’t a particularly good big game performer compared to those guys.

Kobe played like a retard in that game 7 and people here are saying he played a "great game"

Can't make this shit up. :oldlol:

Go to 34:40 mark. The moment Kobe takes a dribble, the Celtics come to double, instead of passing it, he forces terrible shots that miss badly.

[video=youtube;19kCMpF-86c]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19kCMpF-86c[/video]

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15031661]Kobe played like a retard in that game 7 and people here are saying he played a "great game"

Can't make this shit up. :oldlol:

Go to 34:40 mark. The moment Kobe takes a dribble, the Celtics come to double, instead of passing it, he forces terrible shots that miss badly.

[video=youtube;19kCMpF-86c]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19kCMpF-86c[/video][/QUOTE]
Stuff like that was frequent with Kobe too. It’s bad low IQ basketball and his stans pretend it’s not because “5 rings”.

"watch the games" - warriorfan

There is a literal play in that game where the Celtics double Kobe and he still decides to shoot and the ball hits the top of the backboard.

You even see Phil Jackson during a timeout say that they are not getting good shots because the ball isn't moving enough. Alot of that was on Kobe.

1:06:50 mark. Look at all those shots Kobe is taking over double teams, and when he is not doubled they are still heavily contested.

"great game" though. :lol

[video=youtube;19kCMpF-86c]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19kCMpF-86c[/video]

[QUOTE=RRR3;15031660]Maybe you’re unaware but this data is what NBA teams use to build their roster. Some impact data isn’t publicly available because NBA teams don’t want others to see it in fact. If teams built it based on vibes like you? They’d be terrible. I hate to break it to you but the “nerds” won. That’s how teams get built across sports now. Watch the movie moneyball. People with your primitive mindset got phased out from making decisions in team building.

Smart teams analyze data and don’t base it on who they have a crush on like you do. I get that Kobe made you feel all tingly inside when he made a contested midrange shot but you can’t just ignore stats because they don’t support your loverboy. We can just compare him to his contemporaries and he comes up short so you trying to deflect to other eras is funny considering you have no real argument for how he was better than Shaq LeBron or Duncan besides “clutch bucket getter” or whatever when we already established he wasn’t a particularly good big game performer compared to those guys.[/QUOTE]

Lol, the nerds won? The game is basically randomized now. Whichever team gets hot from three at the right time wins. You could fail to execute in every other facet of the game, play terrible d, but if you're hitting your threes and the other team isn't... that's ballgame.

Every team is robotic now. They have a perimeter attack but NOTHING else. Celtics are supposedly a championship team but when the shot isn't falling they have NOTHING to fall back on. Tatum and Brown just keep HOISTING up threes. You talk about Kobe shooting his teams out of games but never in my life have I seen more PLAYOFF games where teams are getting blown out by 30 and 40. Because on those nights when the team isn't shooting well, they have NO SHOT to win.

And this method of "efficient" basketball only exists because the rules ALLOW it to exist. Because shooters ALLOW it to exist. If you applied this same method to a roster in 2006... it DOESN'T work. You're not getting 120 pts a game from MOST of those teams. They don't have the shooting or the spacing. The teams back then were playing with a TOTALLY different deck of cards. Rest assured though, even if some stat wizard figured out how to make it work in 2006... I'm pretty sure he would find value in Kobe Bryant. :oldlol:

And yea... being a "clutch bucket getter" is pretty fukking important. Your boys Shaq, Duncan and Bron ALL relied on a clutch bucket getter at some point in their career to win a championship. In Game 7 of the finals against GS... when CLE needed a clutch bucket... that team went to Kyrie... NOT Bron. He was a PASSENGER on that play. He was off to the side and WATCHED.

When you talk about the greatest to ever do it, the top 25 all time... they are all GREAT players. They can all DOMINATE. They can all impose their will on the game in their own way. But who can dominate for ALL FOUR QUARTERS. Who can dominate when the GAME IS ON THE LINE?? Shaq?? :oldlol: No shot. Mentally fragile and doesn't have the skillet. Can't even shoot free throws. Duncan?? Mentally sure he's a killer but he doesn't have the skillset. Doesn't have half his rangz if not for Parker and Ginobili. Lebron?? If he was that guy CLE wouldn't have gone to Kyrie. :oldlol:

When it comes to Shaq, Duncan, Bron, Kobe... you could build a great team around ANY of those guys. If you cater to their strengths and surround them with the right talent, they would ALL be great teams. They are ALL going to be competitive.

But only ONE of those teams has a stone cold closer. That's the difference.

It’s not my fault you don’t understand what you’re watching in modern basketball. The schemes are far more complex, there is far more movement on both offense and defense today. Dumbing it down to “they just shoot 3s” is disingenuous at best. Do you seriously think things have somehow gotten worse in basketball as society has advanced? :lol

Your Kobe worship seems to be rooted in your nostalgia for your childhood. You want to believe you watched the best basketball. But you didn’t. That’s not how advancement works. Teams back then played extremely stupidly, often taking outright horrendous shots like a long two early in the shot clock. That’s simply bad basketball and we know that now. You have to realize the NBA is still a relatively young sport and until recently teams really didn’t play intelligently at all.

Watch this video baller:

[url]https://youtu.be/fp4but75EjY?si=8hgZ2FBz7EFQBPhu[/url]

[QUOTE=Tavr;15031608]Rondo even credited Kobe for his tenacious defense on Ray and [I]himself[/I]. Kendrick Perkins also recently claimed Kobe's rebounding was one of the biggest reasons that LA won. I personally wouldn't argue his G7 was "great", but given the context it wasn't horrific like stat nerds claim.

I also want to dive deeper into Kobe's elimination games. Baller234 made an interesting post regarding Kobe's early years (before he began and entered his prime). Looking at the numbers in elimination games, Prime Kobe actually averaged 25 on 41% shooting. And if you removed that elimination game 7 vs Houston (LA was already up 20+ in the 2nd quarter :oldlol:), his averages would be 26 on 41%. I didn't calculate the assists or rebounding, but looking at the stats, Kobe was pretty good there too. These numbers also don't tell you about defense and we know in big games Kobe revved it up on that end.

Tallying everything up, I think Kobe was alright in elimination games. Not bad or great. Numbers should always be put into proper perspective though.[/QUOTE]
If you want to remove his first 2 years when he was still a bench player, that's fair. Discounting those, Kobe averaged 24/6/4 on 51%TS, imo quite underwhelming for a guy lauded for his scoring and clutch performance and considered a top 10 player of all time.

To his credit, he had some good elimination games during the 3peat, it's really after that he's a pretty inarguably bad elimination game performer for a player of his stature.

2003 WCSF Game 6: 20/2/6 on 9/19 with 7 TO's, they lose by 28 at home

2004 Finals Game 5: 24/3/4 on 7/21, they lose by 13 but trailed by 28 with 4:30 to go

2006 FR Game 7: 24/4/1 on 8/16, he infamously quits in the 2nd half and they lose by 31

2007 FR Game 5: 34/4/1 on 13/33 with 6 TO's, they lose by 9

2008 Finals Game 5: 25/7/4 on 8/21 with 6 TO's, they stave off elimination

2008 Finals Game 6: 22/3/1 on 7/22 with 4 TO's, they lose by 39

2009 WCSF Game 7: 14/7/5 on 4/12, they won in a blowout so you don't have to put a lot of emphasis on this one, still not a good game by any measure

2010 Finals Game 6: 26/11/3 on 9/19, they stave off elimination

2010 Finals Game 7: 23/15/2 on 6/24 with 4 TO's, some people claim this a great performance, I would disagree with that assertion

2011 WCSF Game 4: 17/3/1 on 7/18 with 5 TO's, they lose by 36 as the series favorite

2012 FR Game 7: 17/1/8 on 7/16, they stave off elimination

2012 WCSF Game 5: 42/5/0 on 18/33, they lose by 16

That's a consistent track record of extremely poor-underwhelming performances and his team getting obliterated. These are a dozen games all in his prime, and I'd say maybe 2 of them were good. Even the OKC game he dropped 40, taking 33 shots and having zero assists is quite the Kobe way to go out in your final playoff game :lol

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;15031679]If you want to remove his first 2 years when he was still a bench player, that's fair. Discounting those, Kobe averaged 24/6/4 on 51%TS, imo quite underwhelming for a guy lauded for his scoring and clutch performance and considered a top 10 player of all time.

To his credit, he had some good elimination games during the 3peat, it's really after that he's a pretty inarguably bad elimination game performer for a player of his stature.

2003 WCSF Game 6: 20/2/6 on 9/19 with 7 TO's, they lose by 28 at home

2004 Finals Game 5: 24/3/4 on 7/21, they lose by 13 but trailed by 28 with 4:30 to go

2006 FR Game 7: 24/4/1 on 8/16, he infamously quits in the 2nd half and they lose by 31

2007 FR Game 5: 34/4/1 on 13/33 with 6 TO's, they lose by 9

2008 Finals Game 5: 25/7/4 on 8/21 with 6 TO's, they stave off elimination

2008 Finals Game 6: 22/3/1 on 7/22 with 4 TO's, they lose by 39

2009 WCSF Game 7: 14/7/5 on 4/12, they won in a blowout so you don't have to put a lot of emphasis on this one, still not a good game by any measure

2010 Finals Game 6: 26/11/3 on 9/19, they stave off elimination

2010 Finals Game 7: 23/15/2 on 6/24 with 4 TO's, some people claim this a great performance, I would disagree with that assertion

2011 WCSF Game 4: 17/3/1 on 7/18 with 5 TO's, they lose by 36 as the series favorite

2012 FR Game 7: 17/1/8 on 7/16, they stave off elimination

2012 WCSF Game 5: 42/5/0 on 18/33, they lose by 16

That's a consistent track record of extremely poor-underwhelming performances and his team getting obliterated. These are a dozen games all in his prime, and I'd say maybe 2 of them were good. Even the OKC game he dropped 40, taking 33 shots and having zero assists is quite the Kobe way to go out in your final playoff game :lol[/QUOTE]

Yeah, not sure I agree with your analysis (raw numbers don't include playing defense). I actually incorporated everything from Kobe's prime so the 2001 season and up. Not really sure why you're removing his 3-peat years. :confusedshrug: There shouldn't be an arbitrary cutoff. I'm also confused as to why you're now adding different criteria. Like losing, getting blown out and "being favorites" :oldlol: As a LeBron fan don't you think that would negate some of his "best" performances? lol

Do lebum stans realize lebum has worse and more humiliating moments than Kobe? Focusing on Kobe's bad plays LMAO who are you nerds fooling??

23 healthy seasons, 3 lucky rings and the most embarrassing moments of any atg.

[QUOTE=LAL;15031688]Do lebum stans realize lebum has worse and more humiliating moments than Kobe? Focusing on Kobe's bad plays LMAO who are you nerds fooling??

23 healthy seasons, 3 lucky rings and the most embarrassing moments of any atg.[/QUOTE]

Kobe lucked himself into 3 rings by playing with peak Shaq.

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15031689]Kobe lucked himself into 3 rings by playing with peak Shaq.[/QUOTE]
Not even worth arguing with that guy he can barely tie his shoes he’s so dumb.

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15031665]1:06:50 mark. Look at all those shots Kobe is taking over double teams, and when he is not doubled they are still heavily contested.

"great game" though. :lol

[video=youtube;19kCMpF-86c]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19kCMpF-86c[/video][/QUOTE]

Lebum fanboi post a video about lebum vs Diaw, Iggy, JJ barea, Terry, celtics quitjob, orlando quitjob, spurs 07, you should check the quitting and HORRIBLE decisions he made during those matchups? There's a LOT more. You should apply the same standards to your stat padding queen who is actually not a great basketball player compared to others before during and after.

Anyone remember lebum switching away from KD for that final shot like a straight up bitch?

Anyone remember him posting up midgets and kick it out like a bitch?

Anyone remember lebum disagreeing with mj saying kobe was better and more proven in 2013 and Kobe shutting his shit down in that asg and telling him 'you talk too much'?

Anyone remember lebum being scared of Kawhi coming back in and continued to shut his no fundamental having ass up. Then the cramps.

How would lebum's stats looked if he played in a triangle? Would he have accepted lesser stats for a ball moving system and Phil and shaq's ego?

[QUOTE=Tavr;15031684]Yeah, not sure I agree with your analysis (raw numbers don't include playing defense). I actually incorporated everything from Kobe's prime so the 2001 season and up. Not really sure why you're removing his 3-peat years. :confusedshrug: There shouldn't be an arbitrary cutoff. I'm also confused as to why you're now adding different criteria. Like losing, getting blown out and "being favorites" :oldlol: As a LeBron fan don't you think that would negate some of his "best" performances? lol[/QUOTE]
The notion his defense makes up for some of these performances is absolutely laughable, you'd have to have Bill Russell impact to try to salvage these performances and Kobe, esp after the 3peat, is not even in the stratosphere of that.

I didn't remove his 3peat years, I acknowledged that was the one instance he performed well, but that was a clear aberration as the rest of his career was filled with very poor performances.

I didn't add any criteria, I included how many points they lost by in each elimination game, and in most instances they got curb stomped. I added they were the favorites in 2011 to emphasize the fact they got swept and destroyed like that in the final game.

And you can whataboutism LeBron, an odd choice considering he's the GOAT elimination game performer, but nothing in LeBron's career changes anything about what factually occurred in Kobe's career regarding elimination games.

[QUOTE=LAL;15031694]Anyone remember lebum disagreeing with mj saying kobe was better and more proven in 2013 and Kobe shutting his shit down in that asg and telling him 'you talk too much'?[/QUOTE]

The same MJ who failed miserably as a GM? Constantly drafting busts. We are taking his comparison seriously when evaluating players?

[QUOTE=LAL;15031696]How would lebum's stats looked if he played in a triangle? Would he have accepted lesser stats for a ball moving system and Phil and shaq's ego?[/QUOTE]

The same triangle Phil ran as a GM with the Knicks despite being outdated with the current NBA?

LeGM acutally got some rings.

[QUOTE=LAL;15031691]Lebum fanboi post a video about lebum vs Diaw, Iggy, JJ barea, Terry, celtics quitjob, orlando quitjob, spurs 07, you should check the quitting and HORRIBLE decisions he made during those matchups? There's a LOT more. You should apply the same standards to your stat padding queen who is actually not a great basketball player compared to others before during and after.[/QUOTE]

Only difference is nobody is hyping up LeBron for his performance in 2011 vs Mavs or 2007 vs Spurs.

You have people calling Kobe's horrific game 7 in 2010 a "great game"

:roll:

Don’t let the desperate Kobe stans try to make this about LeBron fellas. This is about Jokic versus Kobe.

Lebron fanbois are not good at basketball and grew up without fathers.

Kobe was lebum's daddy for a minute there, but the bitch couldn't handle
it, went about it the wrong way because he doesn't understand manhood
or mastering the game he was forced to play because of his physic.

White liberal nerds love the trashy ghetto entertainer type losers, we know that much.

Lebron fanbois are not good at basketball and grew up without fathers.

Kobe was lebum's daddy for a minute there, but the bitch couldn't handle
it, went about it the wrong way because he doesn't understand manhood
or mastering the game he was forced to play because of his physic.

White liberal nerds love the trashy ghetto entertainer type losers, we know that much.

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15031699]Only difference is nobody is hyping up LeBron for his performance in 2011 vs Mavs or 2007 vs Spurs.

You have people calling Kobe's horrific game 7 in 2010 a "great game"

:roll:[/QUOTE]

Few said it was great but he won, go defend your loser fraud.

[QUOTE=RRR3;15031672]It’s not my fault you don’t understand what you’re watching in modern basketball. The schemes are far more complex, there is far more movement on both offense and defense today. Dumbing it down to “they just shoot 3s” is disingenuous at best. Do you seriously think things have somehow gotten worse in basketball as society has advanced? :lol

Your Kobe worship seems to be rooted in your nostalgia for your childhood. You want to believe you watched the best basketball. But you didn’t. That’s not how advancement works. Teams back then played extremely stupidly, often taking outright horrendous shots like a long two early in the shot clock. That’s simply bad basketball and we know that now. You have to realize the NBA is still a relatively young sport and until recently teams really didn’t play intelligently at all.[/QUOTE]

I'm convinced you aren't reading my posts. I'm convinced you skim through, get emotionally triggered by a single sentence and then go off on a tangent. If you did you wouldn't have responded in this retarded manner.

The schemes are more "complex" because the shooting allows for it. If you took a time machine to a previous era and applied the same "scheme", it doesn't work. You don't have the shooters. If it's pre-2000's you don't even have the lanes. That means wayyy less drive and kick. If it's pre-MERGER you don't even have a 3pt line. :oldlol:

What's your brilliant plan then?? Tell me how any of these teams win without a 3pt line. :oldlol: