Felton vs. Norman (The Chamberlain\Russell Thread)

[QUOTE=Abraham Lincoln][URL="http://news.google.com/archivesearch?as_q=&num=10&hl=en&btnG=Search+Archives&as_epq=Red+Auerbach+opines&as_oq=&as_eq=&as_user_ldate=1966&as_user_hdate=1967&lr=&as_src=&as_price=p0&as_scoring=a"][SIZE=-1][COLOR=#666666]Pay-Per-View - Chicago Tribune - ProQuest Archiver[SIZE=-1][COLOR=black] - Mar 15, 1967[/COLOR][/SIZE][/COLOR][/SIZE][/URL]
[I]
'Basketball's volatile Red Auerbach opines that some of Wilt Chamberlain's records are "silly and ridiculous. It's the biggest joke in the history of all statistics to count field goals by a man who is dunking the ball."'

Chamberlain's rebuttal: "Red Auerbach is a stupid, silly man."[/I]





[URL="http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=79kLAAAAIBAJ&sjid=LVcDAAAAIBAJ&pg=7146,5149170&dq"]The Evening Independent - Apr 28, 1967[/URL]

[I]
'Instead, I asked Russell. "Wilt's attitude has not been as bad as people thought," said Bill. "It's just that he's come to realize that this is the way to play to win. When he first came into the league he had a different concept of the game than I had. Now his is the same as mine. He's been playing the way I played for the last 11 years. [B]He did it better than I used to do it[/B], but it's the same game - passing off, coming out to set screens, picking up guys outside and sacrificing for team play."'[/I][/QUOTE]

I believe that Auerbach was referring to Chamberlain's mark of 35 straight made FGAs, which is just another laughable comment on Wilt. Chamberlain had had three perfect games that year (15-15, 16-16, and 18-18), and I couldn't tell you which one(s) were involved, but to criticize a player for having 43 point games on 18-18 shooting was just ridiculous.

Simmons' ripped Wilt for leading the league in assists, too, suggesting that Chamberlain was doing so for purely statistical reasons (which, Wilt himself admitted was a goal that he had set before the season.)

What was comical about these pot-shots was that in the year that Wilt made those 35 straight FGs, Philly went 68-13, and ran away with the best mark in league history (at the time.) And Simmons failed to mention that in the year that Wilt led the league in assists, the Sixers again ran away with the best record in the league at 62-20...outdistancing 2nd place Boston by eight games.

It just amazed me that Chamberlain was so often criticized for the most ridiculous reasons. He was considered a ball-hog in the first half of his career, particularly the record-setting 61-62 season, but the FACT was, his COACH asked him to shoot the ball. He felt that that was the Warriors' best chance of winning...which it was, since he had virtually very little help.

Here again...so many current "historians" attempt to rationalize Wilt's numbers. They argue pace and competition. Yet, why was it ONLY Chamberlain that was putting up those HUGE games and seasons? As for competition...Kerr, Reed, Bellamy, Lucas, Thurmond, Lanier, Hayes, Unseld, Russell and Kareem...all in the HOF. The FACT was, when Chamberlain came into the league, he SHATTERED the existing records. Before he came into the league the scoring record was 29.2 ppg; the FG% record was .490, and the rebounding record was 23 rpg. He set records several times over, but by the time he left the game, he had set a scoring mark of 50.4 ppg; a FG% mark of .727; and a rebounding record of 27.2 rpg. Interesting too, that NO ONE has even come remotely close to ANY of those marks since.

The fact was, Wilt was a TRUE once-in-lifetime player. He STILL holds something like 130 records, and in many cases, he holds the next mark(s), as well. Many of those records will never be approached, much less broken.

There was Wilt...and then there was everyone else.

[quote]
Simmons' ripped Wilt for leading the league in assists, too, suggesting that Chamberlain was doing so for purely statistical reasons (which, Wilt himself admitted was a goal that he had set before the season.)[/quote]

What I do not understand is how one can correlate Chamberlain's [B]regular season[/B] assist record to the 7th game loss at the Spectrum in '68.



[URL="http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=nTUmAAAAIBAJ&sjid=cf4FAAAAIBAJ&pg=2336,4748497&dq"]Gettysburg Times - May 9, 1968[/URL]

[I]'Idle conversation between a reporter and Vince Miller, scout-statistician for the Philadelphia 76ers, may have solved the mystery of why Wilt Chamberlain took so few shots in the seventh and final game of the Eastern final against Boston. Miller told George Kiseda of the Philadelphia Bulliten his chart showed Chamberlain got the ball in the pivot just seven times in the second half - twice in the third period, and five times in the fourth quarter. In the first half the ball went into the pivot 23 times.[/I]'



Whether it was 5 touches in the fourth or merely 2 touches in the final period like Robert Cherry has said, that is still a staggering difference from the 1st half. As Wali Jones said, [I]"The fact that he was our center piece, and not to get the ball into him was an error. You can't perform without the ball."[/I] I have also read that the Celtics used "The Wall" Wayne Embry as the primary defensive man on Chamberlain with the rest of the Celtics (Russell included) sagging back into the paint. That is one of the games I am interested in seeing should it be released.



[quote]I believe that Auerbach was referring to Chamberlain's mark of 35 straight made FGAs, which is just another laughable comment on Wilt. Chamberlain had had three perfect games that year (15-15, 16-16, and 18-18), and I couldn't tell you which one(s) were involved, but to criticize a player for having 43 point games on 18-18 shooting was just ridiculous. [/quote]
One can only wonder just how much influence Auerbach had on some of these close games. Not to imply any sort of cheating or fixture at all, as Bill Russell has proven to be the most dominating team player in basketball history as the sustained Celtic excellence cannot be neglected. I just happen to believe that Chamberlain as a Sixer (notably under Hannum) was the best in basketball history. Funny how Red said that about Chamberlain, who as a pivot man played closer to the basket than a guard or forward. Chamberlain would have a similar opinion on Michael Jordan's game decades later.



[I]"I'm not a big fan of Michael Jordan's because he never led the league in field goal percentage. If you take the dunk out of his game, his percentage will be even lower."

-Wilt, 1997




"Wilt was big on stats. One time he called me up and said, 'You know, Harvey, Michael Jordan can't hit a shot beyond 15 feet?'

I said, 'How do you know that?'

He said to me, 'Don't you watch the games?'

I said, 'I don't watch stuff like that. How do you know?'

He said, 'I watch it.'

So, during the height of Michael's career, I got the play-by-play of the first 20 Bulls games and I checked the distance of every shot Jordan took during the season and sure enough, he was shooting 38 percent from 15 feet back. So, I did 20 more and came up with the same result. So then I said, if I did 40, I might as well do 82. Wilt

[I]"I'm not a big fan of Michael Jordan's because he never led the league in field goal percentage. If you take the dunk out of his game, his percentage will be even lower."

-Wilt, 1997[/I]

Doesn't that tell you exactly why Wilt was not a winner.

I wouldn't look to deep into it as Chamberlain would routinely say these things about any player who approached him as a great ball player on the all time ranks. Not too often did he give a player after his era a positive review. His favorite target before Jordan was Kareem, and even Shaq in the late 90's a bit. I would agree Chamberlain may be the only player in basketball history who can be called the biggest underachiever in the history of the game as by some as well as the best player in the game's history by others.

[QUOTE=Abraham Lincoln]Not too often did he give a player after his era a positive review. His favorite target before Jordan was Kareem, and even Shaq in the late 90's a bit.[/QUOTE]
Where did that come from? Actually he give a comment on Shaq that Shaq might have a chance to become a better player than himself, check out the interview, his comment on Shaq were nothing but positive:
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vW17r...lated#t=04m13s[/url]

Indeed that was during Shaq's rookie year. However as some of the writers and even some former players were basically declaring O'Neal a "rich mans Wilt" in the late 90's, the feud was alive. Jabbar & Chamberlain also criticized Shaq's leadership in the '99 season.


[I]"If Shaq has been chosen as the team leader then he need to do it more by example. He needs to get down the court and play defense instead of cherry picking by the basket for all those dunks. Too often the other team is on offense and Shaq is not even at half court. Everybody talks about his points when we should be looking closer at his rebounds and blocked shots and defense."[/I]

[I]-Wilt, 1999[/I]




[URL="http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=9-MdAAAAIBAJ&sjid=Oi8EAAAAIBAJ&pg=6459,5311741&dq"]Milwaukee Journal Sentinel - Apr 30, 1999[/URL]

[I]'In an interview with The Associated Press, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar said the Lakers were underachievers who lacked chemistry. Abdul-Jabbar said Shaquille O'Neal and Kobe Bryant lacked leadership and Kobe Bryant showed immaturity on the court.

Abdul-Jabbar's comments were reported Thursday, two days after the Los Angeles Times published comments by Wilt Chamberlain that focused on O'Neal as the source of the Lakers' problems. Chamberlain, who helped the Lakers win the 1972 title, said the team's biggest problem was O'Neal's inability or refusal to play defense. He said Bryant had been unfairly cast as a "whipping boy" when more of the blame should go to O'Neal.

O'Neal dismissed the comments by Chamberlain, 62, by saying Thursday, "My mother told me to leave the elderly alone."'[/I]

[QUOTE=Abraham Lincoln]Indeed that was during Shaq's rookie year. However as some of the writers and even some former players were basically declaring O'Neal a "rich mans Wilt" in the late 90's, the feud was alive. Jabbar & Chamberlain also criticized Shaq's leadership in the '99 season.


[I]"If Shaq has been chosen as the team leader then he need to do it more by example. He needs to get down the court and play defense instead of cherry picking by the basket for all those dunks. Too often the other team is on offense and Shaq is not even at half court. Everybody talks about his points when we should be looking closer at his rebounds and blocked shots and defense."[/I]

[I]-Wilt, 1999[/I]




[URL="http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=9-MdAAAAIBAJ&sjid=Oi8EAAAAIBAJ&pg=6459,5311741&dq"]Milwaukee Journal Sentinel - Apr 30, 1999[/URL]

[I]'In an interview with The Associated Press, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar said the Lakers were underachievers who lacked chemistry. Abdul-Jabbar said Shaquille O'Neal and Kobe Bryant lacked leadership and Kobe Bryant showed immaturity on the court.

Abdul-Jabbar's comments were reported Thursday, two days after the Los Angeles Times published comments by Wilt Chamberlain that focused on O'Neal as the source of the Lakers' problems. Chamberlain, who helped the Lakers win the 1972 title, said the team's biggest problem was O'Neal's inability or refusal to play defense. He said Bryant had been unfairly cast as a "whipping boy" when more of the blame should go to O'Neal.

O'Neal dismissed the comments by Chamberlain, 62, by saying Thursday, "My mother told me to leave the elderly alone."'[/I][/QUOTE]

you know what? regarding to that season in 1999, somehow, i agree with Wilt and KAJ... what do you think?

Indeed it was also a bit wild with the lockout IMO and the signing of Rodman, that was a roster with talented players. In 2000, they were [B]a team[/B], in large part due to Coach Jackson and O'Neal's full commitment to both ends, winning a near unanimous MVP.

[QUOTE=Abraham Lincoln]Indeed it was also a bit wild with the lockout IMO and the signing of Rodman, that was a roster with talented players. In 2000, they were [B]a team[/B], in large part due to Coach Jackson and O'Neal's full commitment to both ends, winning a near unanimous MVP.[/QUOTE]
Do you have source about how Bill Russell comment on Shaq?

Besides calling Shaq the most improved player in '00?



[URL="http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/USAToday/access/60307216.html?dids=60307216:60307216&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:FT&type=current&date=Sep+14%2C+2000&author=Oscar+Dixon&pub=USA+TODAY&desc=Best+center+ever%3F+Russell+steps+up&pqatl=google"]Sep 14, 2000[/URL]

[I]
[SIZE=-1] "A guy asked me if Shaq was the greatest[/SIZE] c[SIZE=-1]enter ever. I said no. [/SIZE]He then asked me who was and I said I was. I'm probably Shaq's biggest fan, but false modesty is not a virtue."[/I]

Coach Hannum with some high praise for those who have not seen it yet, calling Chamberlain the greatest player ever after the '67 season as well as the top defensive man in the league.

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJdSJQvwpIY#t=4m19s[/url]

[QUOTE=Abraham Lincoln]Besides calling Shaq the most improved player in '00?



[URL="http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/USAToday/access/60307216.html?dids=60307216:60307216&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:FT&type=current&date=Sep+14%2C+2000&author=Oscar+Dixon&pub=USA+TODAY&desc=Best+center+ever%3F+Russell+steps+up&pqatl=google"]Sep 14, 2000[/URL]

[I]
[SIZE=-1] "A guy asked me if Shaq was the greatest[/SIZE] c[SIZE=-1]enter ever. I said no. [/SIZE]He then asked me who was and I said I was. I'm probably Shaq's biggest fan, but false modesty is not a virtue."[/I][/QUOTE]
The greatest center ever? of course it's Russell... the guy had 11 rings, he is indeed the greatest center ever, and Wilt shall be the best individual and dominant center ever...

I'm more interested in his comment on Shaq's offensive and deffensive skills, domination, comparison with himself or other centers, like Wilt, KAJ, Hakeem, etc.. do you happen to have some sources please?

[QUOTE=Abraham Lincoln]Coach Hannum with some high praise for those who have not seen it yet, calling Chamberlain the greatest player ever after the '67 season as well as the top defensive man in the league.

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJdSJQvwpIY#t=4m19s[/url][/QUOTE]

I remember I saw somewhere that Coach Hannum called Wilt is the best athlete ever in sports.

[quote=alexandreben]The greatest center ever? of course it's Russell... the guy had 11 rings, he is indeed the greatest center ever, and Wilt shall be the best individual and dominant center ever...

I'm more interested in his comment on Shaq's offensive and deffensive skills, domination, comparison with himself or other centers, like Wilt, KAJ, Hakeem, etc.. do you happen to have some sources please?[/quote]

[URL="http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=op0zAAAAIBAJ&sjid=RPEDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6795,4272783&dq"]Jan 17, 1995[/URL]

[I]'"Shaquille (O'Neal) is certainly a force to be reckoned with," says Abdul-Jabbar, not necessarily responding to Russell's recent praise of O'Neal. "And he's going to be around a long time. But I think Hakeem is clearly a better player. He can do more things on the court."'[/I]



[URL="http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/features/shaq/flashback/shaqs_world/"]April 21, 1997[/URL]

[I]'"He doesn't have a good touch with the ball," says Abdul-Jabbar, the Lakers' last monster center before Shaq. "Any shot that he takes from more than two feet that he can't jam seems to lack touch. He's not selfish, he plays hard, he plays for the team, but there's just not much progress with the soft touch."[/I]'



[URL="http://news.google.com/archivesearch?as_q=&num=10&hl=en&btnG=Search+Archives&as_epq=Kareem+wrote+about+Shaq&as_oq=&as_eq=&as_user_ldate=5%2F1%2F1997&as_user_hdate=6%2F1%2F1997&lr=&as_src=&as_price=p0&as_scoring=a"]May 11, 1997[/URL]

[I][SIZE=-1]'Hall of Fame Lakers center Kareem Abdul-Jabbar is not impressed. "His offensive play is one-dimensional and predictable," Kareem wrote about Shaq[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] in Men's Journal. "He's a good defensive player only in certain situations. [/SIZE][/I][SIZE=-1][I] He doesn't understand teamwork, and if you foul him, he can't make free throws."'[/I]
[/SIZE]


[URL="http://news.google.com/archivesearch?as_q=&num=10&hl=en&btnG=Search+Archives&as_epq=%22No+dunks+or+short+stuff%2C+just+outside+shooting%2C+two+hours+a+day+by+myself.%22&as_oq=&as_eq=&as_user_ldate=10%2F7%2F1997&as_user_hdate=10%2F8%2F1997&lr=&as_src=&as_price=p0&as_scoring=a"]Oct 7, 1997[/URL]
[I]
'"Wilt and Kareem, they dog me every day, I never say anything," Shaq said. Instead, this summer, he did something. "I didn't work on anything but shooting, free-throw extended. No dunks or short stuff, just outside shooting two hours a day by myself."[/I]'
[SIZE=-1]


[URL="http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=VrsyAAAAIBAJ&sjid=OfIDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6562,1930318&dq"]Apr 23, 2000[/URL]
[I]
'"Shaquille O'Neal has played as well this year as anybody who has ever played," Bill Walton said in an interview with Jay Posner of the San Diego Union-Tribune. "I voted for Shaq as most valuable player. I voted for Shaq for defensive player of the year. I voted for Shaq for most improved player of the year."'[/I]
[/SIZE]

[quote=alexandreben]I remember I saw somewhere that Coach Hannum called Wilt is the best athlete ever in sports.[/quote]
[URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdHJOFCbUhg"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdHJOFCbUhg[/URL]

1:02 mark