[QUOTE=juju151111;4011089]Good post. Top 25 and Goat defender.:cheers:[/QUOTE]
Espn ranked him at 21.
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[QUOTE=juju151111;4011089]Good post. Top 25 and Goat defender.:cheers:[/QUOTE]
Espn ranked him at 21.
[QUOTE=BigShotBob;14023240]Great second option. Can't do much more though outside of that unfortunately.[/QUOTE]
Goat perimeter defender, point guard. 2nd option was just one of roles
[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;4016871]Good point. You could even argue that the 99' Bulls were better than the 95' Bulls without Pippen or Jordan. Kukoc would be the best player on either team and in 99' he was at his peak, not a second year player new to American basketball. BJ Armstrong>99' Harper but the rest of the team is similar. If anything the 99' team was slightly better. Brent Barry>whoever you count as the 95' Bulls' third best player in this scenario (Will Perdue? Kerr? ), It doesn't even matter beyond this. It is scrubs vs. scrubs after this.
Keep in mind in 95' Pippen became the second player in history to lead his team in scoring, rebounding, assists, blocks, and steals. He led them in minutes too I believe. He ran their offense, anchored their defense. If his team was so good why was he asked to do so much?
He is in the conversation for top 5 PF of all-time. You mentioned 87'. He was 4th in MVP voting that year. Legit "sidekicks" do not finish that high in MVP voting or make all-NBA first team. The sad thing is being a "sidekick" will hurt him when he is, say, compared to Dirk. They are comparable in terms of talent but one was "the man" on his team for years and losing as "the man">winning as a "sidekick" according to a lot of people.
The 95' Bulls would have been good if they had a rebounding/defensive PF like Grant or Rodman. What do you expect from a team whose starting "power" forward is averaging 5 boards and was not exactly a tough defender? Kukoc was a very good scorer and playmaker but having him as a PF is a joke. All he had was the height of a PF. He lacked the mentality or strength needed to be a viable PF. Who did the Bulls have at center? Will Perdue and Luc Longley.
It is a shame the Bulls used their free agent $$$$ on what turned out to be a washed up Ron Harper and not a PF that year. They could survive with a scrub at SG; they could not survive zero rebounding and Kukoc and Perdue as their "intimidators" in the paint.
Harper was not as good as O'Neal imo. That was washed up, defensive specialist Harper not prime 20 ppg Harper.
I factored all that in. Cassell played 60 games, Sprewell was old and Wally was good for a years. Even with Cassell's injury, Sprewell being old I would still take Cassell/Sprewell/Wally over second year Kukoc/Armstrong/old, post-injury Harper.
So we both agree they were comparably bad "casts." So why is one guy criticized for producing the same results and the other lionized? :confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]
1995 team got better with return of Longley. Younger Harper with BJ, Kerr & Kukoc. Still not a playoff team, but not 1999.
makes me wonder what his GPA were, since it wasn't the one and done system back then.
[QUOTE=Aceman]1995 team got better with return of Longley. Younger Harper with BJ, Kerr & Kukoc. Still not a playoff team, but not 1999.[/QUOTE]
They were still safely a playoff team. They were in 6th place, right behind the Cavs. There is a myth they were at risk of missing the playoffs that gets pushed so often people start to believe it. The 8th place team in 95' (Celtics) won 35 games so the Bulls had basically done that (34) by when MJ returned.
Right, they got better with Longley and their record did not reflect their SRS. Over time, SRS is the best predictor of win losses and it appeared their SRS was starting to show up in their results before MJ came back (11-6 since the break, 8-2 right before MJ returned). Here is what SRS said the 1995 standings should have been before MJ returned:
[U]1995 East Standings Predicated by SRS[/U]
1) Magic 48-17
2) Bulls 42-23
3) Pacers 39-24
4) Hornets 39-35
5) Knicks 37-25
6) Cavs/Hawks 35-28
8) Heat 28-36
Pippen also missed two full games (0-2) and he basically missed a third when he was ejected in the second quarter against the Clippers (the worst team in the NBA that year). If you project their win pace out with him, they would be 36-31 heading to Indiana, compared to the Pacers 39-24. In other words, if Pippen played every game they would be right in the hunt to win the division. This is compared to a full strength Pacers team whereas the Bulls were down MJ, Grant, Rodman, plus injuries to Longley as you noted.
[QUOTE=GimmeThat;14053217]makes me wonder what his GPA were, since it wasn't the one and done system back then.[/QUOTE]
I assume solid because he was getting a work-study type scholarship and that comes with a minimum requirement (isn't it usually 2.5 or 2.75?). He wasn't a star until late in college when he had his growth spurt so he wouldn't get any "special treatment" like you here about with some players who went to college as big stars.
[B]Best All Around Forward of the 90's![/B]
[QUOTE=Rico2016;14023300]It was the greatest consecutive three-year stretch for a number two option in NBA history. You won't find a better one. Pip averaged something crazy like 21/9/8/2/1 on 46% and obviously top-level defense.[/QUOTE]
Bingo
Riiiiico got these bois spinnin
:dancin
[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14053261]They were still safely a playoff team. They were in 6th place, right behind the Cavs. There is a myth they were at risk of missing the playoffs that gets pushed so often people start to believe it. The 8th place team in 95' (Celtics) won 35 games so the Bulls had basically done that (34) by when MJ returned.
Right, they got better with Longley and their record did not reflect their SRS. Over time, SRS is the best predictor of win losses and it appeared their SRS was starting to show up in their results before MJ came back (11-6 since the break, 8-2 right before MJ returned). Here is what SRS said the 1995 standings should have been before MJ returned:
[U]1995 East Standings Predicated by SRS[/U]
1) Magic 48-17
2) Bulls 42-23
3) Pacers 39-24
4) Hornets 39-35
5) Knicks 37-25
6) Cavs/Hawks 35-28
8) Heat 28-36
Pippen also missed two full games (0-2) and he basically missed a third when he was ejected in the second quarter against the Clippers (the worst team in the NBA that year). If you project their win pace out with him, they would be 36-31 heading to Indiana, compared to the Pacers 39-24. In other words, if Pippen played every game they would be right in the hunt to win the division. This is compared to a full strength Pacers team whereas the Bulls were down MJ, Grant, Rodman, plus injuries to Longley as you noted.
I assume solid because he was getting a work-study type scholarship and that comes with a minimum requirement (isn't it usually 2.5 or 2.75?). He wasn't a star until late in college when he had his growth spurt so he wouldn't get any "special treatment" like you here about with some players who went to college as big stars.[/QUOTE]
Without Pippen in 95 not a playoff team
I like Bill Simmons, but that part about Pippen shutting Magic down in the 91 finals is just flat out without debate untrue and revisionist history.
It didn't happen. He's not much of a historian claiming things like that.
[QUOTE=Carbine;14053813]I like Bill Simmons, but that part about Pippen shutting Magic down in the 91 finals is just flat out without debate untrue and revisionist history.
It didn't happen. He's not much of a historian claiming things like that.[/QUOTE]
Stuff like questioning Chris Mullins place on dream team in revisionist - Pippen's defence was reported at time;
[url]https://www.nytimes.com/1991/06/06/sports/basketball-pippen-performs-magic-on-defense.html[/url]
[QUOTE=aceman]Without Pippen in 95 not a playoff team[/QUOTE]
Oh sorry, misread your post. Yeah, without Pippen for sure. The 94' team wasn't a PO team without him either. Pippen missed 12 full games during the MJ retirement era and a de facto 13th where he was ejected early. The Bulls went 4-9 in those games (25 win pace).
[QUOTE]I like Bill Simmons, but that part about Pippen shutting Magic down in the 91 finals is just flat out without debate untrue and revisionist history.[/QUOTE]
You don't "shut down" a player of Magic's caliber but Game 2 was his worst game.
Phil Jackson said Pippen's defense on Magic turned the tide of the series and Grant said he should have been FMVP, citing that as a reason.
[QUOTE]Stuff like questioning Chris Mullins place on dream team in revisionist - Pippen's defence was reported at time;
[url]https://www.nytimes.com/1991/06/06/s...n-defense.html[/url][/QUOTE]
From that article (the title? Pippen Performs Magic on Defense):
[QUOTE][B]Pippen Performs Magic on Defense[/B]
[U]Johnson Under Wraps
[/U]
Pippen shot better tonight (8 for 16) and scored 20 points. More important, he limited Magic Johnson to 4-for-13 shooting from the field and 14 points over all.
Pippen, who was matched against James Worthy at the start of the game, switched to Johnson with 4 minutes 5 seconds remaining in the first quarter after Jordan had picked up his second foul.
"Pippen did a great job on me," Johnson said. "Once Michael got into early foul trouble, you had to expect they would make that switch.
"They were trying wear me out or take the ball out of my hands, take your pick. Scottie is more physical than Michael so the matchup was a little different."
[U]Full-Court Pressure[/U]
Pippen said, "I was trying to defend Magic full court so he could not pick apart of our offense.[/QUOTE]
Look at Magic's game logs for the series.
Game 1: 19/10/11 80%
[B]Game 2: 14/7/10 31%[/B]
Game 3: 22/6/10 47%
Game 4: 22/6/11 46%
Game 5: 16/11/20 33%
One of these is not like the others. 14/7/10 isn't being shut down but you can see the stark difference with his normal level in the logs.
I watched the games, he didn't shut him down. Throwing box scores at me means nothing, it's no different than 3ball saying Jordan shut Magic down in the OT when Magic is out there shooting wide open uncontested 3 pointers and just missing them, with MJ nowhere in sight.
Strange how NBA.com paints the picture as if Scottie was the primary defender on Magic for the majority of the series.
In the Chicago’s first-ever NBA Finals appearance, Scottie Pippen took the primary responsibility of guarding Magic Johnson in 1991 versus the Los Angeles Lakers. Pippen’s stellar defensive effort altered the scope of the series and set the standard for teams searching for a taller, more athletic point guard to shut down opposing point guards.
At first, all anyone could talk about was the Michael Jordan vs. Magic Johnson match-up. But as the series carried on, it was clear that it was going to take much more than one individual for either team to succeed. Jordan was superb, averaging 31.2 points, 11.4 assists and 6.6 rebounds, but the Bulls were no one-man team. Their defense held the Lakers to a record-low 458 points for a five-game series.
At first, Head Coach Phil Jackson designated Jordan to guard Johnson, with relief help from Pippen.
"It's tough to guard Magic and then go down and be expected to carry the load offensively," Jordan said following the series opener. "It's a challenge, but I have to do it."
However, things changed in Game 2 when the Bulls discovered a new defensive stopper. Pippen switched over onto Johnson after Jordan picked up his second personal foul in the first quarter and did an outstanding job on the Lakers' star, pestering him into 4-for-13 shooting.
“I didn’t know what to expect to be honest,” Pippen said of the assignment.
The Lakers were outmanned by the younger, more athletic Bulls. Wherever Johnson went, he was hounded by the fourth-year Pippen, who combined to pressure his every step and harassed him into 22 turnovers.
"We were all hyped and full of energy because it was our first time [in the Finals] and we were excited,” Pippen recalled.
“I decided I was going to try to work him and wear him down as best as I could. That was my plan, and whether it affected him initially, I didn’t know if it would or not. I just focused on wearing him down for the long haul—not just that game but throughout the whole series.”
The Bulls dropped the opening game in Chicago, but wouldn’t lose again, taking the series, 4-1. Pippen led all scorers in the decisive fifth game with 32 points and 13 boards and averaged 21.6 points, 8.9 rebounds, 5.8 assists, and 2.47 steals in 17 postseason games.
[url]https://www.nba.com/bulls/history/pippen10_1991.html[/url]
Historians place a lot of weight on what was said at the time, both in coverage and by participants. For the press, the first stop is the [I]New York Times[/I] as the nation's "paper of record." If the NYT headline on the next day's story is Pippen's defense, you have quotes from various participants in the game, other press accounts, etc. there is only one conclusion for a historian to reach. He isn't going to get held up on a technicality over the definition of "shut down", especially since we know superstars like that are never really shut down.
The counter argument has to explain how people 1) at the time 2) in the lore that developed over the following 30 years were both incorrect. The NYT reporter watched the game too--that was his job. Did all these people just get it backwards?
[QUOTE] Throwing box scores at me means nothing, it's no different than 3ball saying Jordan shut Magic down in the OT [/QUOTE]
That is one guy with an agenda 30 years later. That isn't the same as the NBA reporter for the nation's "paper of record" saying it in his story on the game.
[QUOTE]Strange how NBA.com paints the picture as if Scottie was the primary defender on Magic for the majority of the series.
[/QUOTE]
That article was written sloppily and therefore conveys that impression. He wasn't and I don't think that's what the writer actually meant. Maybe a short deadline? :oldlol:
Here is more reporting from the time. So people who watched the game live, wrote a story right after the game for the next day's paper. There is this push against this from the MJ crowd "Pippen guarding Magic" (not you but I see it out there)--but that started 20+ years after the fact with a clear agenda. This is what (now four) people said when they wrote their thoughts minutes after the game ended without any agenda other than telling readers what happened.
[U]The Washington Post (David Aldridge)[/U]
[QUOTE][B]Scottie Pippen had 20 points, but it was his defensive job on Magic Johnson that was his bigger contribution tonight[/B]. With Pippen instead of Jordan on Johnson, the Lakers' leader shot four for 13.
Chicago actually did it out of necessity. Jordan picked up his second foul guarding Johnson with 4:05 left in the first period, and Pippen, who had made one of six shots till then, had to switch off to Johnson while Jordan took Byron Scott.
[B]The 6-foot-8 Pippen could obstruct Johnson's passing lanes, which the 6-6 Jordan couldn't do. And Pippen, a few pounds heavier than Jordan, could put a little more muscle on Johnson and turn him back and forth down the floor.[/B]
"Basically,[B] I was trying to defend against Magic full-court," Pippen said, "so he couldn't pick apart our defense.[/B] . . . I had success on Magic tonight but so did Michael."
"[B]He's much more physical than Michael," Johnson said[/B]. "So the matchup's different. I thought all along that they were going to play Scottie on me. But I think they were forced into it."[/QUOTE]
[URL="https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/sports/1991/06/06/game-2-bulls-surge-107-86/11781a94-f3e9-4ca2-84aa-d94671a10751/"]https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/sports/1991/06/06/game-2-bulls-surge-107-86/11781a94-f3e9-4ca2-84aa-d94671a10751/[/URL]
[U]UPI[/U]
Headline: [B]Pippen's defense shadows Magic, Lakers[/B]
[QUOTE]INGLEWOOD, Calif. -- [B]Contrary to some reports, when Magic Johnson removed his jersey after Game 2 of the NBA Finals, he did not find Scottie Pippen underneath.
Pippen, though, did blanket Johnson during the Chicago Bulls' 107-86 rout[/B] of the Lakers Wednesday night. And he'd like to remain up close and personal with the Los Angeles star when the best-of-seven series, tied at one game apiece, resumes Friday night at the Forum.
Early in Game 2, Chicago Coach Phil Jackson took Michael Jordan off Johnson and replaced him with Pippen. [B]The long-armed 6-foot-7 forward hounded the Lakers' playmaker from baseline to baseline, and Johnson finished with just 14 points on 4 of 13 shooting.[/B]
'I wanted to guard Magic,' Pippen said. 'I knew it might take something out of my offense, but I had to try. I got out there and felt very good about guarding him.'
[B]
Johnson, forced to work each time he brought the ball upcourt, played 43 minutes and looked weary[/B]. In his last eight games, he has played fewer than 43 minutes just once.
[B]'When somebody's aggressive like that, guarding you, you know you're going to get tired,' Johnson said.[/B]
Added [B]Los Angeles assistant Randy Pfund: 'That's where (the rout) started. Scottie picked up the pace and that engerized them. He picked up the whole team.'[/B]
[/QUOTE]
[URL="https://www.upi.com/Archives/1991/06/06/Pippens-defense-shadows-Magic-Lakers/8129676180800/"]https://www.upi.com/Archives/1991/06/06/Pippens-defense-shadows-Magic-Lakers/8129676180800/[/URL]