There is one reason why Michael Jordan is the greatest of all-time

[QUOTE=t-rex]If the Bulls had beaten the Knicks that year, it would have been a shocking upset if the Pacers had knocked them off in the ECF. If the Bulls had beaten the Knicks, they would have been heavy favorites to return to the finals.



Question?



If I take Lebron off the Cavs, do they win 55 games and advance to the second round of the playoffs? Are they legit title contenders?

If not, then you must conclude Lebron's supporting cast is not as good as Jordan's.

Neither is Kobe's.[/QUOTE]
LMFAO Gasol,Odom,Fisher, and bynum are you stupid?? MJ>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Kobe Taking LJ off the cavs is a joke through.

[QUOTE=jlauber]So,, Jordan was one of the three best offensive players ever, and one of the ten best defensive players ever...and that makes him at least #2. Who is #1?

How about this...

.[/QUOTE]
How about 6>2:lol

[QUOTE=juju151111]How about 6>2:lol[/QUOTE]

You're absolutely right...

The REAL order of greatness...

Russell with 11 rings, Sam Jones with 10, KC Jones (yep...a greater player than MJ) with 8, Havlicek with 8, and Horry with 7.

Of course, Duncan, Shaq, Magic, and several other are well behind KC Jones, too. Oscar and West...well, you could probably come up dozens of players who have at least two rings...which means, of course, that they are superior players to them.

[QUOTE=jlauber]You're absolutely right...

The REAL order of greatness...

Russell with 11 rings, Sam Jones with 10, KC Jones (yep...a greater player than MJ) with 8, Havlicek with 8, and Horry with 7.

Of course, Duncan, Shaq, Magic, and several other are well behind KC Jones, too. Oscar and West...well, you could probably come up dozens of players who have at least two rings...which means, of course, that they are superior players to them.[/QUOTE]

This counter argument would make sense is all said players were "the man" on their championship teams.

[QUOTE=jlauber]You're absolutely right...

The REAL order of greatness...

Russell with 11 rings, Sam Jones with 10, KC Jones (yep...a greater player than MJ) with 8, Havlicek with 8, and Horry with 7.

Of course, Duncan, Shaq, Magic, and several other are well behind KC Jones, too. Oscar and West...well, you could probably come up dozens of players who have at least two rings...which means, of course, that they are superior players to them.[/QUOTE]
Mj has the combination of all those things, which is why he is the Goat. Don't be mad at me for stating the facts.

[QUOTE=juju151111]Mj has the combination of all those things, which is why he is the Goat. Don't be mad at me for stating the facts.[/QUOTE]
KAJ had the combination of all those things too, tell me why you pick MJ over KAJ...

Pay no attention to roundball and jlauber. They have an agenda of discrediting Jordan at any given opportunity.

It's really sad that they stoop to such lengths to stretch the truth.

From someone who was there for every game from the 1993 finals to 1996 I can give a better perspective of those teams.

1993 - the Bulls weren't exactly the favorites goinginto the playoffs as everyone was picking the Suns. The suns had the best record at 62-20 that year with Barkley as the MVP of the league. The Bulls weren't even favored to beat the Kncks that year and had lost the first two games of the series before roaring back to take the next four straight in mostly close and tightly contest games.

The Bulls vs. Suns finals had the suns as the favorites to win it all. But the Bulls jumped out to a quick 3-0 series lead and never looked back. That Bulls team had MJ and Pippen as their best players and everyone else played a role. That's not spin, that's the truth.

1994 - This team was VASTLY different than the championship '93 team. They didn't simply replace Jordan with Pete myers. They added Steve kerr to and already deadly deep threat team in paxson and Armstrong. They added 2 bill wennington who was a stretch the floor center in a time where centers didn't take jumpshots from 19' out. They drafted Corey Blount whom they figured would replace grant. Last but not least was the addition of Toni kukoc. 6' 11" SF who could shoot, pass, drive the lane and create his own shot. Gone were the non contributing scrubs from the 1993 squad. This was a good team and they fought for each ofthos 55 wins. They didn't coast like 1993 team did. They struggled early in November posting a losing record that month. In December they started to gel and gain traction and posted a winning record that month. Each win they got was a battle. We all know the playoff screw job. And I do beliefs that they would've handled the pacers and rockets
that year as they had done so in the regular season. Therockets would have had the best chance to beat them though.

1995 - Horace Grant bolts for Orlando and the bulls are left without a starting pf. This squad was wierd. They had just added luc longley to replace bill Cartwright. Jud buechler was brought in for what reason I'll never know and they added some other players that weren't really any good. The core of pippen, kukoc, kerr, and Armstrong was still in tact and they weren't as good as the year before. In January Jordan starts showing up to bulls practices and played with them but couldn't fully participate as he wasn't an active player. The bulls started playing better in games and winning a little more. After the all star break the rumors start flying that Jordan is returning and the buzz builds momentum. Then on march 19 the fax comes through with two words "I'm back" and he was. But he was different, he was bulky, and had a flat jumpshot. He was also a little slower than we were used to seeing. In his words he had a baseball player's body and not one for basketball as they used different muscle groups. He played in the last 19 games of the season (not the full season as some would lead you to believe) and the Bulls were good again. They handled Charlotte (hornets) and lost to Orlando. Why? Because they still had no answer for pf forward and grant abused them, add the deadly 3-point shooting of Nick Anderson and Dennis Scott with shaq and penny, that was an amazing squad that went on to be swept by the rockets in the finals.

1996 - to solve the pf problem, bulls management takes a huge gamble in bringing in the games greatest rebounder in Dennis rodman. No real major tweaks were made to the team as they were set at pretty much ever position. Well we all know what happens after that.

In short the bulls didn't always have stacked teams. They did however have the perfect mix of chiefs and Indians. Everyone knew their roles and executed them to perfection. This isn't a slight on any one player as I look at these teams as a whole and not try to diminish players for the sake of an agenda.

[QUOTE=magnax1]So hes the best individual player ever because of the players he played with?[/QUOTE]

Yes because Basketball is a team sport. I think Jordan himself will be the first to tell you that.

To answer the this thread Jordan is the GOAT because of two things....he's talent on the b-ball court which changed that game and Nike. We all know about his talent..mindset..skill...etc. But Nike...think about it has any pro athlete before Jordan been marketed that way to reach the masses like him? I'm talking about Jordan the brand right now. Jordan the brand is about as legendary as Jordan the ball player. Think about it....his retro kicks are legendary today still selling for $$$$. His logo when you see it you know what it is.

[QUOTE=alexandreben]KAJ had the combination of all those things too, tell me why you pick MJ over KAJ...[/QUOTE]
KAJ wasn't the man for 2 of his chips.

[QUOTE=Glide2keva]Pay no attention to roundball and jlauber. They have an agenda of discrediting Jordan at any given opportunity.

It's really sad that they stoop to such lengths to stretch the truth.

From someone who was there for every game from the 1993 finals to 1996 I can give a better perspective of those teams.

1993 - the Bulls weren't exactly the favorites goinginto the playoffs as everyone was picking the Suns. The suns had the best record at 62-20 that year with Barkley as the MVP of the league. The Bulls weren't even favored to beat the Kncks that year and had lost the first two games of the series before roaring back to take the next four straight in mostly close and tightly contest games.

The Bulls vs. Suns finals had the suns as the favorites to win it all. But the Bulls jumped out to a quick 3-0 series lead and never looked back. That Bulls team had MJ and Pippen as their best players and everyone else played a role. That's not spin, that's the truth.

1994 - This team was VASTLY different than the championship '93 team. They didn't simply replace Jordan with Pete myers. They added Steve kerr to and already deadly deep threat team in paxson and Armstrong. They added 2 bill wennington who was a stretch the floor center in a time where centers didn't take jumpshots from 19' out. They drafted Corey Blount whom they figured would replace grant. Last but not least was the addition of Toni kukoc. 6' 11" SF who could shoot, pass, drive the lane and create his own shot. Gone were the non contributing scrubs from the 1993 squad. This was a good team and they fought for each ofthos 55 wins. They didn't coast like 1993 team did. They struggled early in November posting a losing record that month. In December they started to gel and gain traction and posted a winning record that month. Each win they got was a battle. We all know the playoff screw job. And I do beliefs that they would've handled the pacers and rockets
that year as they had done so in the regular season. Therockets would have had the best chance to beat them though.

1995 - Horace Grant bolts for Orlando and the bulls are left without a starting pf. This squad was wierd. They had just added luc longley to replace bill Cartwright. Jud buechler was brought in for what reason I'll never know and they added some other players that weren't really any good. The core of pippen, kukoc, kerr, and Armstrong was still in tact and they weren't as good as the year before. In January Jordan starts showing up to bulls practices and played with them but couldn't fully participate as he wasn't an active player. The bulls started playing better in games and winning a little more. After the all star break the rumors start flying that Jordan is returning and the buzz builds momentum. Then on march 19 the fax comes through with two words "I'm back" and he was. But he was different, he was bulky, and had a flat jumpshot. He was also a little slower than we were used to seeing. In his words he had a baseball player's body and not one for basketball as they used different muscle groups. He played in the last 19 games of the season (not the full season as some would lead you to believe) and the Bulls were good again. They handled Charlotte (hornets) and lost to Orlando. Why? Because they still had no answer for pf forward and grant abused them, add the deadly 3-point shooting of Nick Anderson and Dennis Scott with shaq and penny, that was an amazing squad that went on to be swept by the rockets in the finals.

1996 - to solve the pf problem, bulls management takes a huge gamble in bringing in the games greatest rebounder in Dennis rodman. No real major tweaks were made to the team as they were set at pretty much ever position. Well we all know what happens after that.

In short the bulls didn't always have stacked teams. They did however have the perfect mix of chiefs and Indians. Everyone knew their roles and executed them to perfection. [B]This isn't a slight on any one player as I look at these teams as a whole and not try to diminish players for the sake of an agenda.[/B][/QUOTE]


My only AGENDA is to present the FACTS in these GOAT discussions. And the FACTS were, Jordan played with the most talented rosters in the 90's, and his TEAM won six titles. Was Jordan the primary reason? Of course he was. But, for those that have this perception that MJ HIMSELF won those rings, what about Pippen, who won just as many. On top of that, using this analogy that ONE player won the rings, Pippen got the Bulls just as far in '94, withOUT MJ, as he did WITH MJ in '95. And,Pippen played on a Portland team that took the 99-00 Lakers to the final minutes of a game seven, as well.

And, once again, MJ was NO miracle worker. He played on FIVE losers in his career. He took a 27 win team to 38 wins in his first year. Bird, Kareem, D. Robinson, and Wilt all had far more IMPACT in their first season.

And uneducated fans, who never even saw Wilt and Russell play, believe the MYTH that Wilt was a "loser" (although he played on as many title teams as Olajuwon did.) The real FACTS were that Wilt carried inferior rosters for much of his career, to within an eyelash of beating the greatest dynasty in professional sports history. He played in FOUR game sevens, and those teams lost those games by a combined NINE points. I have documented the variety of reasons, as well...and they are all FACTUAL. He played on inferior rosters; and in several post-season games in which an opposing player hit a miracle shot to beat his team (1962 and TWO games in 1969); or a horribly officiated game that cost a HUGE under-dog team a title (game five of the 70 Finals); or where an opponent made a great play at the end of the game (65 ECF's game seven.)

Jordan supporters would argue that MJ would NEVER have lost a close game seven. MY take is that Jordan would never have gotten those teams that Wilt played on, nearly as far. For those that did not see him play, Elgin Baylor was a similar player to MJ. He and Jerry West are two of the greatest players ever (West had POST-SEASON numbers similar to MJ's BTW)...and yet, they went 0-7 against Russell's Celtics. Wilt not only played in four series in which he could easily have won...he DID lead a team to a convincing victory over the Celtics.

I have given the '86 Bulls as an example before, but here we go again...MJ played brilliantly, but he could not lead Chicago to even ONE win against the Celtics, and their FIVE HOFers. Meanwhile, Wilt took the same basic last-place roster that he joined in '60, to a game seven, two-point loss against the 62 Celtics..and their SIX HOFers.

You can find flaws in most all of the great players, as well. Kareem played on several 60+ win teams that did not win a championship. In fact, he was considered a huge disappointment until Magic arrived in 79-80. Shaq, as dominant as he was in so many post-seasons, played on several teams that got swept in the post-season.

Really, if you are using rings as a gauge, only Russell stands alone. His TEAMs won 11 titles in 13 seasons, and 27 playoff series in 29 tries. He also won with a 48 win team.

If you are using INDIVIDUAL domination...it is simply NO CONTEST...Wilt was the statistically most dominant player in ANY professional team sport.

[QUOTE=Glide2keva]Pay no attention to roundball and jlauber. They have an agenda of discrediting Jordan at any given opportunity.

It's really sad that they stoop to such lengths to stretch the truth.

From someone who was there for every game from the 1993 finals to 1996 I can give a better perspective of those teams.

1993 - the Bulls weren't exactly the favorites goinginto the playoffs as everyone was picking the Suns. The suns had the best record at 62-20 that year with Barkley as the MVP of the league. The Bulls weren't even favored to beat the Kncks that year and had lost the first two games of the series before roaring back to take the next four straight in mostly close and tightly contest games.

The Bulls vs. Suns finals had the suns as the favorites to win it all. But the Bulls jumped out to a quick 3-0 series lead and never looked back. That Bulls team had MJ and Pippen as their best players and everyone else played a role. That's not spin, that's the truth.

1994 - This team was VASTLY different than the championship '93 team. They didn't simply replace Jordan with Pete myers. They added Steve kerr to and already deadly deep threat team in paxson and Armstrong. They added 2 bill wennington who was a stretch the floor center in a time where centers didn't take jumpshots from 19' out. They drafted Corey Blount whom they figured would replace grant. Last but not least was the addition of Toni kukoc. 6' 11" SF who could shoot, pass, drive the lane and create his own shot. Gone were the non contributing scrubs from the 1993 squad. This was a good team and they fought for each ofthos 55 wins. They didn't coast like 1993 team did. They struggled early in November posting a losing record that month. In December they started to gel and gain traction and posted a winning record that month. Each win they got was a battle. We all know the playoff screw job. And I do beliefs that they would've handled the pacers and rockets
that year as they had done so in the regular season. Therockets would have had the best chance to beat them though.

1995 - Horace Grant bolts for Orlando and the bulls are left without a starting pf. This squad was wierd. They had just added luc longley to replace bill Cartwright. Jud buechler was brought in for what reason I'll never know and they added some other players that weren't really any good. The core of pippen, kukoc, kerr, and Armstrong was still in tact and they weren't as good as the year before. In January Jordan starts showing up to bulls practices and played with them but couldn't fully participate as he wasn't an active player. The bulls started playing better in games and winning a little more. After the all star break the rumors start flying that Jordan is returning and the buzz builds momentum. Then on march 19 the fax comes through with two words "I'm back" and he was. But he was different, he was bulky, and had a flat jumpshot. He was also a little slower than we were used to seeing. In his words he had a baseball player's body and not one for basketball as they used different muscle groups. He played in the last 19 games of the season (not the full season as some would lead you to believe) and the Bulls were good again. They handled Charlotte (hornets) and lost to Orlando. Why? Because they still had no answer for pf forward and grant abused them, add the deadly 3-point shooting of Nick Anderson and Dennis Scott with shaq and penny, that was an amazing squad that went on to be swept by the rockets in the finals.

1996 - to solve the pf problem, bulls management takes a huge gamble in bringing in the games greatest rebounder in Dennis rodman. No real major tweaks were made to the team as they were set at pretty much ever position. Well we all know what happens after that.

In short the bulls didn't always have stacked teams. They did however have the perfect mix of chiefs and Indians. Everyone knew their roles and executed them to perfection. This isn't a slight on any one player as I look at these teams as a whole and not try to diminish players for the sake of an agenda.[/QUOTE]
Problem is people always AUTOMATICALLY thought Jordan is the GOAT without thinking, and the rest of the candidate AUTOMATICALLY out of the GOAT discussion; how can that be???!!!

People neglect Bill Russell had the most impact to the game and neglect his effort and his 11 rings which's FAR more than Jordan's, and also I doubt Jordan's MIND is stronger than Bill Russell's, and giving the criteria of "With and without you" theory, Bill Russell was FAR more important player than Jordan to their teams, the 1995 Bulls had proved that;

KAJ has combination of rings and personal awards and honours just like Jordan did, how can he be left out of the GOAT discussion?

Wilt Chamberlain has 2 rings, and he wrote the "NBA record book" like his own "diary book", how can he left out of the GOAT discussion too?

[QUOTE=juju151111]KAJ wasn't the man for 2 of his chips.[/QUOTE]
Without KAJ, Magic will never got the chance of reaching the ring, just like Kobe and Shaq, Wade and Shaq..

[QUOTE=jlauber]My only AGENDA is to present the FACTS in these GOAT discussions. [B]And the FACTS were, Jordan played with the most talented rosters in the 90's[/B], and his TEAM won six titles. Was Jordan the primary reason? Of course he was. But, for those that have this perception that MJ HIMSELF won those rings, what about Pippen, who won just as many. On top of that, using this analogy that ONE player won the rings, Pippen got the Bulls just as far in '94, withOUT MJ, as he did WITH MJ in '95. And,Pippen played on a Portland team that took the 99-00 Lakers to the final minutes of a game seven, as well.

And, once again, MJ was NO miracle worker. He played on FIVE losers in his career. He took a 27 win team to 38 wins in his first year. Bird, Kareem, D. Robinson, and Wilt all had far more IMPACT in their first season.

And uneducated fans, who never even saw Wilt and Russell play, believe the MYTH that Wilt was a "loser" (although he played on as many title teams as Olajuwon did.) The real FACTS were that Wilt carried inferior rosters for much of his career, to within an eyelash of beating the greatest dynasty in professional sports history. He played in FOUR game sevens, and those teams lost those games by a combined NINE points. I have documented the variety of reasons, as well...and they are all FACTUAL. He played on inferior rosters; and in several post-season games in which an opposing player hit a miracle shot to beat his team (1962 and TWO games in 1969); or a horribly officiated game that cost a HUGE under-dog team a title (game five of the 70 Finals); or where an opponent made a great play at the end of the game (65 ECF's game seven.)

Jordan supporters would argue that MJ would NEVER have lost a close game seven. MY take is that Jordan would never have gotten those teams that Wilt played on, nearly as far. For those that did not see him play, Elgin Baylor was a similar player to MJ. He and Jerry West are two of the greatest players ever (West had POST-SEASON numbers similar to MJ's BTW)...and yet, they went 0-7 against Russell's Celtics. Wilt not only played in four series in which he could easily have won...he DID lead a team to a convincing victory over the Celtics.

I have given the '86 Bulls as an example before, but here we go again...MJ played brilliantly, but he could not lead Chicago to even ONE win against the Celtics, and their FIVE HOFers. Meanwhile, Wilt took the same basic last-place roster that he joined in '60, to a game seven, two-point loss against the 62 Celtics..and their SIX HOFers.

You can find flaws in most all of the great players, as well. Kareem played on several 60+ win teams that did not win a championship. In fact, he was considered a huge disappointment until Magic arrived in 79-80. Shaq, as dominant as he was in so many post-seasons, played on several teams that got swept in the post-season.

Really, if you are using rings as a gauge, only Russell stands alone. His TEAMs won 11 titles in 13 seasons, and 27 playoff series in 29 tries. He also won with a 48 win team.

If you are using INDIVIDUAL domination...it is simply NO CONTEST...Wilt was the statistically most dominant player in ANY professional team sport.[/QUOTE]

But that is not a fact, that is your opinion. Why are you trying to pass it off as a fact? Pretty much everyone thought the 92 Blazers were more talented then the Bulls.

[QUOTE=Leviathon1121]But that is not a fact, that is your opinion. Why are you trying to pass it off as a fact? Pretty much everyone thought the 92 Blazers were more talented then the Bulls.[/QUOTE]

Yeah right. Chicago went 67-15 that year, while the Blazers went 57-25.

kobe never lost to a team that wasn't better than his. what do you mean when they should have won it all? i'm sorry but :

those spurs were better than the lakers, duncan was inhuman that year.

those pistons had a great team defense and were relentless with their bench.

the suns were just better from 1-12. so what if hes the best player in that series? he was the best but the suns had the next 8 top players in that series (yeah i randomly said 8 lol)

the celtics were a great team with great team defense. they threw so many bodies on him, plus the lakers size was neutralized. which is prob what will happen again but this team the lakers have a great defender they can put on pierce to prevent him from going off. im sorry but luke walton and sasha and radmanovic all had their turns getting burned by pierce and allen lol

yeah it seems like im making excuses, but i dont excuse kobe for putting up sh*tty performances. while he may have cost the lakers a game here or game there in them series, the lakers were outmatched in all of them. but whatever, im sure mj beat better teams all the time right. oh wait they never had enough competition and everyone else in that era was mentally weak, and im a knicks fan and i admit they might have thought they could compete but mentally MJ would demoralize them.