Bill Russell Vertical Leap

[QUOTE=Pointguard]If you really want to measure explosion measure a standing broad jump. Its like super hero stuff, a guy is next to you and then blink and he 20 feet away. That's the most explosive the body gets. NOthing else we do is comparable in measure of explosion or muscle combustion. You have to have a quick leap and a strong leap to project your whole body that far.

Boozer has a quick leap but not a strong one -not much height. Jason Richardson only has a strong leap which is why his game suffers. Barkley had both. Amare had/has both. VC and Jordan are amazing with both.

Wilt had HS numbers and collegiate numbers at 22 feet which is why his dunking from the foul line, Wilt did it with a one step broad jump, is something that can be surmised pretty easily. In general we are nutritional giants in comparison to the 1960's people. But it is not across the board and 100% everybody. There are people who are just ahead of their time. There were people in the Roman times that ran 96 miles. We are not 100% more athletic than everybody from the 18th century.[/QUOTE]

This is an excellent post.

While I believe every generation slowly improves, it does not necessarily mean that EVERY athlete was better than those of say 10, 15, 20 even 50 years ago.

And certainly these "improvements" are generally not dramatic, either. Does anyone really believe that Wilt, or Dr. J would be an average basketball player today? Kareem? Olajuwon? MJ? Shaq?

It has been about 12 years since MJ last played a meaningful game...and he was on the decline even then. So, his PEAK was probably in the early 90's...or close to 20 years ago. Does that mean we are to automatically assume that the best players of today are automatically better than MJ was 20 years ago? In fact, using some of the logic posted on this topic, are we to assume that EVERY basketball player today is better than what MJ was 20 years ago?

And, MJ was not head-and-shoulders above Magic, Bird, and Dr. J, either. Better? Perhaps, but certainly not overwhelmingly.

Is Howard better today, than Shaq was in 2000? Is Spencer Hawes better than Shaq in 2000? How about Olajuwon in 1995? Mose Malone in 1983? Kareem in 1972? Wilt in 1967? Russell in 1963?

And, where is the cut-off point? When did we come to believe that the players of today became better than those of yesteryear? What specific year did that take place?

I have mentioned the "bridges" before. Ted Williams and Kareem. Ted Williams was a rookie in 1939. His numbers were not better than Lou Gehrig's in 1936, whose numbers were certainly not better than Babe Ruth's in either 1927, or 1920. Williams hit .406 in 1941, against 1941 pitching. Then, at age 38, in 1957, he hit .388 against 1957 pitching...some of whom would pitch into the 60's (and 70's.) Was Williams head-and-shoulders above his peers? No...Mickey Mantle won the Triple Crown in 1956, and slugged 52 HRs in the process. Willie Mays hit 51 HRs in 1955, and 52 in 1965. Hank Aaron hit 44 HRs in 1957, and 40 HRs in 1973 (in 392 ABs), and against 1970's pitching...many of whom would be throwing into the 1980's. George Foster hit 52 HRs in 1977. Mike Schmidt was hitting 40 HRs in the 80's. Of course, we had an "explosion" in the 90's, due to other factors...but you get the picture. If we use Ted Williams as the "bridge", we can conclude that Lou Gehrig (and probably Babe Ruth) would still be great today.

Nolan Ryan is another "bridge." He was a rookie in 1969, and retired in the 90's. In between he set strikeout records that will probably never be broken. I have mentioned it before, but he was clocked by a SLOW radar gun at 101 MPH, in the 8th inning of a game in which he had already thrown 162 pitches. I have posted the link previously, in which the writer believes that Ryan would have hit 107 on a "fast" gun. Incidently, for pure speed, google the name Steve Dalkowski. You won't know who he was, but there are those, including Ted Williams, who believe that he was the hardest thrower ever. Speaking of speed...Bob Feller (and Walter Johnson before him) was believed to have thrown in the 100's. Koufax could as well, but he could not control it, so he "slowed" it down to about 98, and became almost unhittable. Ryan, himself, was STILL among the hardest throwers in his LAST season, and at age 46. He was clocked at 98 MPH on his very LAST pitch, and on an injured arm. As great as Ryan was, he was certainly not the best pitcher of all-time.

I have mentioned Mickey Mantle before. I have posted the link which lists his 10 longest HRs. Personally, I don't believe them all, but his 565 ft. HR was actually measured. Barry Bonds never came close to that distance. And I don't believe McGwire did, either. AND, Mantle was hitting "tape measure" shots from BOTH sides of the plate. All at 5-11 and 180 lbs. Hank Aaron and Willie Mays were not big guys, yet they are two of the greatest HR hitters ever. And players like Stargell, Howard, Killebrew, and McCovey were hitting 500+ ft, HRs back in the 60's. And, who can forget Reggie Jackson's monstrous HR in the '71 All-Star game?

So, are we to believe that TODAY's baseball players are SIGNIFICANTLY better than those that played 50+ years ago?

I have mentioned football. True, today's football players are much bigger (and probably much stronger) than those of even 20 years ago. Geez, there are 260 lb quarterbacks playing today. But, in terms of speed, there have been MANY faster players than the fastest in the league today (Chris Johnson...who ran a 4.24 40.)

Darrell Green played in the NFL from 1983 to 2002. I have seen claims of a 40 as low as 4.09. I am not convinced of that mark, BUT, at age 40 he ran a clocked 4.35, and was among the five fastest players in the league...at age 40! Bo Jackson ran a 4.12 at the NFL combine. Jackson, at 220 lbs, was also WORLD ranked in the 60 meter. Deion hit 4.18. Hershel Walker ran a 10.1 100 meters. OJ Simpson was a member of USC's world-record holding 4x100 relay team in 1967. And, of course, Bob Hayes ran a 10.0 100 meters in 1964. NO LEGITIMATE NFL player (much less a HOF receiver like Hayes), has EVER run faster. And he played over 40 years ago.

That brings us to Kareem..."the NBA bridge." Kareem was hanging three straight games of 35, 42, and 46 on Hakeem in the 85-86, and at age 39! We all know that Hakeem went on to be generally regarded as the best center in the league in the 90's. He certainly gave Shaq all he could handle in 1995. Shaq, of course, became the dominant player of the 00's. However, for all of Kareem's greatness, he STRUGGLED against BOTH Nate Thurmond and Wilt...and BOTH of those guys were well past their primes. Kareem, in his statistical prime, in the 70-71, 71-72, and 72-73 seasons, did not shoot even 50% against Nate and Wilt, ONE time, in five post-season series. In fact, in a couple of them he barely cleared 40%. And, against Wilt, in Chamberlain's last season, in six regular season games, he was outshot by Chamberlain, .637 to .450. And, once again, both Nate and Wilt were well past their primes. Futhermore, Chamberlain dominated Thurmond early in his career, and thoroughly outrebounded and outshot him in every post-season. In some early games he crushed Thurmond (in one game he outscored him 45-13.) Wilt outrebounded Thurmond in every post-season, as well as held him to below 40% (some WAY below 40%) in EVERY post-season battle (while never shooting less than 50% himself.)

We have discussed Wilt's athleticism. There are eye-witness accounts of him touching the top of the backboard, by well respected sports figures. He even had long-time sports writer George Kisida measure a leap at a 42". The NBA and NCAA outlawed the dunking of FTs BECAUSE of Wilt. There are numerous articles that credit Wilt with dunking on a 12 ft. rim...all of which popped up while he was at Kansas. He was a high-jump champ, a long jumper, 440, 880, shot-putter, sprinter, and a triple jumper while at Kansas. And he was only participating PART TIME. His track coach believed that he would have been capable of clearing 7-0. AND, had the "Fosbury Flop" TECHNIQUE been used back then, there is no telling how much than 7-0 he would have gone. There are also MANY accounts of his awesome strength. 500+ bench press numbers are ALL over the internet. Here again...eye-witness accounts, as well. Most all of these incredible stories are not told by Wilt, but by MANY others.

The bottom line...Wilt was truly a ONE-OF-A-KIND. He was a gifted outside shooter when he entered the NBA, and he DOMINATED the game like no one before...or SINCE. He was widely regarded as having outplayed Kareem in their 28 H2H matchups, and all but one were after his leg surgery (and he CLEARLY crushed Kareem in that one game before the injury.) And, as we have already read, Kareem went on to dominate Hakeem, who outplayed Shaq, who dominated the 00's. You can draw your conclusions from that.

[QUOTE=jlauber]And, as we have already read, Kareem went on to dominate [B]Hakeem, who outplayed Shaq[/B], who dominated the 00's. You can draw your conclusions from that.[/QUOTE]

Haven't you always maintained that you didn't believe this to be true?

[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]Haven't you always maintained that you didn't believe this to be true?[/QUOTE]

Alright...just trying to emphasize a point.

[url]http://articles.latimes.com/2006/aug/22/sports/sp-dwyre22/2[/url]

[COLOR="DarkRed"]"Kiseda cites Chamberlain's incredible athleticism.

"I saw him palm a bowling ball," he says. "I also saw him go up for a jump ball against K.C. Jones and tip it in. I saw him standing in a hospital gown, in a room with a high ceiling, [B]and jump at least 42 inches straight up and palm the ceiling."[/B]"[/COLOR]

Just a couple of quick ones...

[url]http://volleyball.org/people/wilt_chamberlain.html[/url]

[COLOR="DarkRed"]"From Pat Powers, 1984 Olympic Volleyball Gold Medalist, 10/14/99 -
A lot has been written about Wilt the last several days here in So Cal. He is receiving more attention now than he has for the last fifteen years--he would have preferred it this way, Wilt was never one for the spotlight off the court.

Here are two stories that I just attached names to yesterday:

One day big Wilty (a notorious card cheater) was playing a game off VB down at Muscle Beach in Santa Monica. To say Wilty was competitve in all sports would be a minor understatement. An argument broke out over the correct score and Wilty was not giving ground to anybody on the court. One of the players, Amon Lucky, made the mistake of stepping under the net to further the point, when Wilty picked him up and threw him over the net!!! Now understand the "Amer" weighs something on the order of 225lbs, so the rumor is Wilty "taped"him on the throw over. needless to say Wilty won the argument, and if memory serves me correct, the game.

Wilty was one of the strongest guys I have ever seen. I once was sitting on the steel fence at Rosecrans taking in the Rosecrans open with Wilt and several cohorts back in the late 70's. A player from Muscle Beach was standing beneath us and told us he was going to walk around so he could come join us up on the rail. Wilty told him there was "no no reason to walk," and reached down and picked him up by one arm and hoisted him over the bar. Mike weighed ~240lbs!!!

I have been around some athletes in my day. But nobody and I mean nobody was stronger than Wilty. He was a man's man!!! "[/COLOR]

[url]http://wiltfan.tripod.com/chat.htm[/url]

[COLOR="DarkRed"]"This is the transcript from Wilt's online interview from MSNBC

Subject:
From:
Host:
Date: NBA legend Wilt Chamberlain 4-18-97
Chris Donohue (MSNBC)
MSNBC
Mon Nov 24 11:58

Host Pamm_MSNBC says:
Our guest is Wilt Chamberlain, NBA legend and author of "Who's Running The Asylum". Wilt's book is only available by calling 800-280-1776. A portion of the book proceeds will benefit Chamberlain's favorite charities.

Host @Wilt_Chamberlain has joined the conversation.

Host Wilt_Chamberlain says:
Hello!

M3 says:
Hi Wilt

kovler says:
what up wilt

jonn says:
hello wilt

^LapTop^ says:
Hi Wilt !

Ron says:
hows it going wilt?

Host Chris_MSNBC2 says:
one says:
Oh, well in that case my question would be...."witch collage where you drafted from?"

Host Wilt_Chamberlain says:
I was drafted from high school back in 1955. I went to U of Kansas, but they made a special ruling and I was the first drafted out of high school, Overbrook high school in Philadelphia.

Host Chris_MSNBC2 says:
Rastaman says:
What's his book about??

NooRotic says:
I've got nuthing but RESPECT for you WILT....

Host Wilt_Chamberlain says:
My book is about how the inside of sports has gone completely crazy and what we can do about straightening things out. About illuminating the problems inside of sports today and what we can do about it.

Host Chris_MSNBC2 says:
Rastaman says:
And How did he feel when he scored the 100 points...

Host Wilt_Chamberlain says:
Well, I am known mainly for scoring 100 points. I felt, at that particular time, very tired. But it was not an individual record as most think, it was my team, they went above and beyond to get me the ball and stop the NY Knicks from doing all sorts of outlandish things to stop me from scoring.

Host Chris_MSNBC2 says:
M3 says:
[B]Question for Wilt...watched you bench press about 465 lbs like it was a match stick at the Stanford gym when you were working out there for some reason...how much can you still push up[/B]?

Host Wilt_Chamberlain says:
[B]Well, probably I can push up a little more than that right now, because I was bench pressing some great weights. I was a shot-putter and lifting weights was a great joy to me. I liked to show off, I don't do that anymore, but I could probably bench press more than 465 pounds now[/B]."[/COLOR]

[url]http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Wilt_Chamberlain[/url]

[COLOR="DarkRed"]"Several years after Wilt stopped playing, he toyed with the idea of a comeback. On the day he visited the Knicks' offices in Madison Square Garden, he talked to Red Holzman, then strode out to the elevator. When it opened, two deliverymen were struggling with a dolly piled high with boxes of office supplies, mostly letterheads and envelopes. The load was so heavy, the elevator had stopped maybe four inches below the floor level and now the deliverymen were huffing and puffing, but they couldn't raise the dolly high enough to get it on the floor level. After maybe two minutes of the deliverymen's huffing and puffing, Wilt, his biceps bulging in a tank top, peered down at them and intoned, "Gentlemen, maybe I can help." They stepped back, he stepped into the elevator, grabbed each end of the rope slung under the dolly and without much exertion, quickly lifted the dolly onto the floor level. Looking up in awe, the deliverymen said, "Thank you." Wilt said, "You're welcome." Wilt stepped into the elevator and rode down to the street level as another witness followed the two deliverymen toward the Knick offices and asked, [B]"How much does all this weigh?" They quickly surveyed the stack of big boxes of office supplies. "Close to 600 pounds," one said.[/B] [Source: The Good Natured Giant Wasn't Belligerent, Sports of the Times; Oct 13, 1999; Dave Anderson]"[/COLOR]

An article from Sport's Illustrated, written in 1964...and well before Wilt would fill out his frame...

[url]http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...91/2/index.htm[/url]

[COLOR="DarkRed"]"With Chamberlain now doing what everyone expected of him all along, San Francisco fans are coming back. They like him and his perpetual-motion supporting cast, and they like winning. About the only people not happy are the Warriors' opponents. The St. Louis Hawks' 6-foot-9, 240-pound Zelmo Beaty, for example, found out recently that he can no longer take Chamberlain's great strength for granted. Unable to slow Wilt down with conventional maltreatment, Beaty tried to yank his shorts off. [B]Chamberlain, who can press 400 pounds without breathing hard[/B], makes it a point to control his temper, primarily because he is genuinely afraid he might kill somebody. Beaty's unethical yank, however, was too much. Wilt flicked an arm, and Beaty flew across the floor like a man shot out of a cannon. Referee Mendy Rudolph rushed over to him and said: "For God's sake, stay down, man. Don't even twitch a muscle." Beaty didn't twitch, and he is still active in the NBA."[/COLOR]

How about this comment from none other than Larry Brown in 1980...

[url]http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Wilt_Chamberlain[/url]

[COLOR="DarkRed"]"Of all his memories of Wilt Chamberlain, the one that stood out for Larry Brown happened long after Chamberlain's professional career had ended. On a summer day in the early 1980s, when Brown was coaching at UCLA, Chamberlain showed up at Pauley Pavilion to take part in one of the high-octane pickup games that the arena constantly attracted. "Magic Johnson used to run the games," Brown recalled Tuesday after hearing that Chamberlain, his friend, had died at 63, "and he called a couple of chintzy fouls and a goaltending on Wilt. "[B]So Wilt said: 'There will be no more layups in this gym,' and he blocked every shot after that. That's the truth, I saw it. He didn't let one [of Johnson's] shots get to the rim." Chamberlain would have been in his mid-40s at the time, and he remained in top physical shape until recently[/B][1]"[/COLOR]

[url]http://www.sherdog.net/forums/f2/sto...99/index6.html[/url]

[COLOR="DarkRed"]"I appreciate your comments. Remember, however, that long limbs do not mean you can't bench press excellent poundages. Wilt [B]Chamberlain, the 7' 2" skinny elite basketball player had very poor mechanical advantages for the bench press. His chest was flat, and his arms were skinny and really long! Nonetheless, he was able to bench press 500 lbs! Nobody would believe this by looking at him. His bench press figures have been verified and are widely known. You can find documentation of it on the web.[/B] He just happened to have freakishly dense muscles, and excellent genetics when it came to all the other factors that result in brute strength.

Shaq O' Neil, however, can "only" bench press 450 lbs even though he has much thicker arms, more overall mass, shorter arms and a thicker chest. Shaq has to compensate for not being as gifted as Wilt in some areas."[/COLOR]

[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slam_dunk[/url]

[COLOR="DarkRed"]"Olympic Gold Medalist Bob Kurland was a 7-foot center and the first player to regularly dunk during games in the 1940's and 50's. [B]Wilt Chamberlain was known to have dunked on an experimental 12-foot basket set up by Phog Allen at the University of Kansas in the 1950s.[5][/B] Michael Wilson, a former Harlem Globetrotter and University of Memphis basketball player, matched this feat on April 1, 2000 albeit with an alley-oop. Dwight Howard dunked on an 12ft basket in the 2009 NBA dunk contest also off an ally-oop.

Jim Pollard[6], Wilt Chamberlain[5], Julius Erving, Clyde Drexler, Michael Jordan, Scottie Pippen, Kobe Bryant, Stromile Swift, Shawn Kemp, Grant Hill, Darrell Griffith, Korleone Young, Edgar Jones, LeBron James, James White, Vince Carter, Jason Richardson, Jamario Moon, Chris Webber, Dwight Howard, Mike Conley, Jr., Brent Barry and Al Thornton have each dunked while jumping from around the free throw line, which is 15 feet from the basket. [B]Unlike the others, Wilt Chamberlain did not require a full running start, but instead began his movement from inside the top half of the free throw circle[/B].[5]"[/COLOR]

[url]http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Wilt_Chamberlain[/url]

[COLOR="DarkRed"]"Legends abound of the truly great leapers who could touch the top of the board. Almost always the feat involves money-claims that the player could grab a dollar bill off the top of the board, or could pluck off a quarter and leave two dimes and a nickel change ... "I defy anyone to say they took change off the top of the backboard," Chamberlain said. "I could. Someone would put a quarter up and I'd snatch it down. I've heard stories about Jackie Jackson doing it, but I've never seen anyone (but himself) come close." [B]Sonny Hill, a Philadelphia leaping legend of the '60s, backs Wilt, saying, "The only man that's been to the top, that's Wilt. I asked Kareem if he ever did, and he could jump a little bit. He told me, `Sonny, no.'[/B]"[/COLOR]

[url]http://wiltfan.tripod.com/didyaknow.htm[/url]

[COLOR="DarkRed"]"Wilt used to lift weights with Arnold Shwartzenegger and Wilt got his bench press up to 500 pounds."[/COLOR]

Toldeo Blade - Nov 28, 1956

[COLOR="DarkRed"][B]'It seems Wilt has an unorthodox method of shooting free throws. The big guy takes aim at the basket from several feet behind the line. Then he takes about three giant steps, leaves his feet before reaching the line, and stuffs the ball through the hoop.[/B]

Under the old rule, it was perfectly legal as Wilt never touched the floor before letting go of the ball. In addition his percentage was fantastic.

"Why, he would have had a free throw percentage of 100," said [Tex] Winter. "He never missed."

[B]Incidentally the rules committee did not mention Chamberlain by name as a reason for the change. The rule change was made, according to the committee, "to prevent freak activity[/B]."'[/COLOR]

The Evening Independent - Sep 15, 1966

[COLOR="DarkRed"]'Chamberlain, like Brown, is a great athlete and seriously considered becoming a fighter a year and a half ago. Wilt and Jimmy have competed againsy each other in foot races and tests of strength.

"I'd rather fight Clay than Wilt," Brown said. "Chamberlain's too big and he's too strong, but I'm no fighter. I'm saving whatever fighting I've got to do for the Dirty Dozen."'[/COLOR]


St. Petersburg Times - Feb 25, 1969

[COLOR="DarkRed"]'Wilt Chamberlain is probably the first giant in history to be able to break 50 seconds in the 440, win a Big Eight high-jump title and be able to set a pick. In fact, he may not be a true giant. Medicine has taken the mystery out of gigantism. Most giants of the past were physical weaklings. Some were 90 percent legs. [B]Wilt Chamberlain, by common consent, is the world's strongest man.[/B]'[/COLOR]

The Miami News - Nov 7, 1962

[COLOR="DarkRed"]'He can clean and jerk a 375 lb weight.[/COLOR]

Prescott Evening Courier - Dec 13, 1955



[COLOR="DarkRed"]'In his colorful and highly successful coaching career at the University of Kansas, Dr. Phog Allen has come up with many radical proposals intended to improve the game of basketball. The one recommendation that readily comes to mind is the suggestion that the baskets be raised from 12 to 15 feet from the floor to overcome the edge enjoyed by exceptionally tall players. At the moment, however Coach Allen isn't pressing that point too vigorously.

If Coach Allen did wish to present a clinching argument in favor of raising the baskets he would only have to look at his freshman squad and put the finger on one Wilton Chamberlain. Wilt the Stilt, as Chamberlain has been called, is a 7-foot-plus growing boy. [B]He has no trouble at all "dunking" the ball into the 12-foot baskets and might even come close to doing the same at the 15-foot height.[/B] Many coaches call Chamberlain the greatest basketball player in the country - right now and at this stage of his development.'[/COLOR]

I posted the above to make a point. I certainly don't believe every story about Wilt or his accomplishments, but clearly, there HAS to be something to MANY of them.

No one man could just come up with these "myths."

And, of course, the biggest point in all of these "stories"...IF these stories were false, where are those that actually witnessed Wilt...the MANY players, coaches, and members of the media...where are those that would DISPUTE them??? Clearly, if these were fabrications, wouldn't at least ONE person come forward (especially since Wilt has been dead for over 10 years now)...and say something like, "Hey, I was practicing with Wilt, and he tried to touch the top of the backboard, but he couldn't even come close." Or, "I was working out with Wilt, and those reports of him benching 500 lbs are untrue. He couldn't even get 400 lbs up."

Where are those people?

[QUOTE=jlauber]I posted the above to make a point. I certainly don't believe every story about Wilt or his accomplishments, but clearly, there HAS to be something to MANY of them.

No one man could just come up with these "myths."

And, of course, the biggest point in all of these "stories"...IF these stories were false, where are those that actually witnessed Wilt...the MANY players, coaches, and members of the media...where are those that would DISPUTE them??? Clearly, if these were fabrications, wouldn't at least ONE person come forward (especially since Wilt has been dead for over 10 years now)...and say something like, "Hey, I was practicing with Wilt, and he tried to touch the top of the backboard, but he couldn't even come close." Or, "I was working out with Wilt, and those reports of him benching 500 lbs are untrue. He couldn't even get 400 lbs up."

Where are those people?[/QUOTE]

I'm not going to doubt that Wilt could bench press 465 in his weight lifting days or later career.

By the way Shaq's reported bench press as we discussed before is credited at 445, 455 and 465 across the internet. So the 445 figure you cited was listed, but so was the 465 figure I remembered seeing. Interestingly enough, one of your articles had him at 450. Again, I don't know how much he could really bench, but what i do know is that he's the strongest player of his era and I'd say the same thing about Wilt. Shaq did get into weight lifting a lot with the Lakers when he was also noticeably bigger than his younger years so for a 7'1"-7'2" 340-380 pound man I can buy those claims in the mid 400s for his bench press.

By comparison, Dwight Howard is credited with a 345 pound bench press, I believe he claimed that in 2007 or 2008. Again, I could buy that, Dwight is huge in his upper body, but unlike Shaq, he's not really that strong compared to many other centers on the court because of lower body strength. I mean, Yao can reportedly bench 300-310, but we've seen that Dwight can't overpower him. And Ben Wallace can reportedly 460 so roughly Shaq's reported bench, but we saw Shaq overpower him, part of that was height, but also strength.

I have a much easier time buying some of the claims about Wilt's weight lifting than vertical leap. I mean, it's not hard to buy that a 7'1", 300 or so pound athlete who was well conditioned and a regular weight lifter could bench over 400 or even the 465 figure that one article cited. However Wilt benching 550 at Kansas when he weighed 240 isn't plausible, IMO.

However, the article that claimed he could bench 400 without breathing hard was from 1964, I believe Wilt entered training camp that year at 290 pounds, atleast according to Robert Cherry's book and that was all muscle, so I won't argue that one.

I wouldn't be surprised if Wilt could bench more than Shaq, but I doubt he was stronger than him because Wilt had very skinny legs and a lot of posting up is lower-body strength. Jason Maxiell exposed Dwight for his lack of lower-body strength in the 2008 playoffs.

On a side note, I do think early 70's Wilt could do a good job against Shaq defensively, probably about as good as anyone I can think of in history, while nobody could stop prime Shaq 1 on 1, the bulked up defensive specialist version of Wilt would probably make him work for his points.

[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234] nobody could stop prime Shaq 1 on 1[/QUOTE]
that really depends on the rules...

if Shaq played in the 60's, he will be playing less than 30min due to foul trouble

plus, Shaq couldn't stop Ewing, Hakeem scoring either

[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]I'm not going to doubt that Wilt could bench press 465 in his weight lifting days or later career.

By the way Shaq's reported bench press as we discussed before is credited at 445, 455 and 465 across the internet. So the 445 figure you cited was listed, but so was the 465 figure I remembered seeing. Interestingly enough, one of your articles had him at 450. Again, I don't know how much he could really bench, but what i do know is that he's the strongest player of his era and I'd say the same thing about Wilt. Shaq did get into weight lifting a lot with the Lakers when he was also noticeably bigger than his younger years so for a 7'1"-7'2" 340-380 pound man I can buy those claims in the mid 400s for his bench press.

By comparison, Dwight Howard is credited with a 345 pound bench press, I believe he claimed that in 2007 or 2008. Again, I could buy that, Dwight is huge in his upper body, but unlike Shaq, he's not really that strong compared to many other centers on the court because of lower body strength. I mean, Yao can reportedly bench 300-310, but we've seen that Dwight can't overpower him. And Ben Wallace can reportedly 460 so roughly Shaq's reported bench, but we saw Shaq overpower him, part of that was height, but also strength.

I have a much easier time buying some of the claims about Wilt's weight lifting than vertical leap. I mean, it's not hard to buy that a 7'1", 300 or so pound athlete who was well conditioned and a regular weight lifter could bench over 400 or even the 465 figure that one article cited. However Wilt benching 550 at Kansas when he weighed 240 isn't plausible, IMO.

However, the article that claimed he could bench 400 without breathing hard was from 1964, I believe Wilt entered training camp that year at 290 pounds, atleast according to Robert Cherry's book and that was all muscle, so I won't argue that one.

I wouldn't be surprised if Wilt could bench more than Shaq, but I doubt he was stronger than him because Wilt had very skinny legs and a lot of posting up is lower-body strength. Jason Maxiell exposed Dwight for his lack of lower-body strength in the 2008 playoffs.

On a side note, I do think early 70's Wilt could do a good job against Shaq defensively, probably about as good as anyone I can think of in history, while nobody could stop prime Shaq 1 on 1, the bulked up defensive specialist version of Wilt would probably make him work for his points.[/QUOTE]

Agreed. Excellent post.

Regarding Wilt...he was clearly ahead of his time...but one can only wonder how much bigger and stronger he would today, with all the advancements in modern technology. Same with his leaping ability. His techinque, as I have said before, was simply awful. He was leaping with sheer athletic ability.

No matter what his actual vertical was, he was still the highest leaper in the league even in his last season (and I am not talking about vertical leap, so much as actual height reached.) I mentioned the story of him coaching San Diego, at age 37, and dressed in a suit-and-tie, and knocking a ball out of a guidewire that none of his players could reach, including 6-11 "jumpin" Caldwell Jones.

Of course, his shot-blocking has become legendary here, as well. I believe Psileas posted numbers in his last season that would have been about 7 bpg. I listened to, or watched, every game in his 71-72 season, and I am pretty convinced that he was better than 7 bpg (maybe much better.) All at an advanced age, at over 300 lbs, and on a surgically repaired knee. His ability to routinely block Kareem's sky-hook, in Kareem's physical prime, speaks volumes about his incredible leaping ability.

And, you are right, I don't think Wilt could have stopped Shaq defensively, one-on-one, although it would have been an interesting battle. There are so many amazing stories of Wilt's strength, many of them even unintentional, that you have to wonder what a truly motivated Chamberlain would have been capable of. Clearly, there was no one in his era that could come close to him in terms of strength and power. I have said it before, but if Wilt would have played like Shaq, either they would have thrown the record book out altogether, or the league would have instituted some more "anti-Wilt" rules.

As for Shaq...he is a great example of those that would argue that today's players are better than those of yesteryear. IMHO there hasn't been a center in the league since Shaq came in in 1993, that is close to him...especially a Shaq circa 2000. And, I seriously doubt we will see anything close to him over the next 10-20 years, either. I look at someone like Greg Oden, who had so much hype, and yet, in reality, he is nowhere near as powerful as either Shaq or Wilt, nor nearly as skilled as Kareem or Olajuwon. If Oden is the best that the NBA can offer (other than Howard...who, IMHO, is also not close to the other's I mentioned)...then Shaq's legacy is certainly safe.

In fact, I am actually perplexed at the criticism that Shaq has received here recently (I know, I have brought up some of his "failures", too...but IMHO, he has been the most dominant player since Wilt.) Shaq has played 18 years, and probably about 14 at as high a level as anyone in the last 35 years, and yet, he gets ripped quite often. I am a huge Kobe fan...but the reality is/was...Shaq was more dominant, at his peak, than Kobe has been or will be. Not a knock on Kobe, but let's get real here...those of us that actually witnessed Shaq in that "three-peat" will attest to his absolute dominance. The "Hack-a-Shaq" was not done because of his FT shooting, but because nothing else worked. Coaches were essentially waving the "white flag."

Anyway...and one more time...I really respect your opinions. In fact, I was amazed at your stated age. You seem to be exceptionally knowledgeable considering just how young you are. Obviously you do your research, and whether I agree with you, or not, I certainly respect your opinions. We are better off learning from each other on this forum, than strictly bashing each other (and that goes for everyone here.) There are several quality posters here...and we can learn from each other.

50s and 60s players are so overrated its stupid. If the superstars of today were to play against the superstars of back then it would be a massacre even worse than the Dream Team vs Angola.

Source: common sense

[QUOTE=ashlar]50s and 60s players are so overrated its stupid. If the superstars of today were to play against the superstars of back then it would be a massacre even worse than the Dream Team vs Angola.

Source: common sense[/QUOTE]

I posted a thread about something similar a while back...

I believe that the '68 USA Olympic team COULD have been the greatest "Dream Team" of all-time...

Russell
Reed
Lucas
Frazier
Thurmond
Barry
Oscar
West
Hawkins
Chamberlain

Alcindor
Hayes
Maravich

Obviously, Alcindor (Kareem), Hayes, and Maravich were in college, but a pretty impressive roster.

[QUOTE=jlauber]Agreed. Excellent post.

Regarding Wilt...he was clearly ahead of his time...but one can only wonder how much bigger and stronger he would today, with all the advancements in modern technology. Same with his leaping ability. His techinque, as I have said before, was simply awful. He was leaping with sheer athletic ability.

No matter what his actual vertical was, he was still the highest leaper in the league even in his last season (and I am not talking about vertical leap, so much as actual height reached.) I mentioned the story of him coaching San Diego, at age 37, and dressed in a suit-and-tie, and knocking a ball out of a guidewire that none of his players could reach, including 6-11 "jumpin" Caldwell Jones.

Of course, his shot-blocking has become legendary here, as well. I believe Psileas posted numbers in his last season that would have been about 7 bpg. I listened to, or watched, every game in his 71-72 season, and I am pretty convinced that he was better than 7 bpg (maybe much better.) All at an advanced age, at over 300 lbs, and on a surgically repaired knee. His ability to routinely block Kareem's sky-hook, in Kareem's physical prime, speaks volumes about his incredible leaping ability.

And, you are right, I don't think Wilt could have stopped Shaq defensively, one-on-one, although it would have been an interesting battle. There are so many amazing stories of Wilt's strength, many of them even unintentional, that you have to wonder what a truly motivated Chamberlain would have been capable of. Clearly, there was no one in his era that could come close to him in terms of strength and power. I have said it before, but if Wilt would have played like Shaq, either they would have thrown the record book out altogether, or the league would have instituted some more "anti-Wilt" rules.

I look at someone like Greg Oden, who had so much hype, and yet, in reality, he is nowhere near as powerful as either Shaq or Wilt, nor nearly as skilled as Kareem or Olajuwon. If Oden is the best that the NBA can offer (other than Howard...who, IMHO, is also not close to the other's I mentioned)...then Shaq's legacy is certainly safe.

Anyway...and one more time...I really respect your opinions. In fact, I was amazed at your stated age. You seem to be exceptionally knowledgeable considering just how young you are. Obviously you do your research, and whether I agree with you, or not, I certainly respect your opinions. We are better off learning from each other on this forum, than strictly bashing each other (and that goes for everyone here.) There are several quality posters here...and we can learn from each other.[/QUOTE]

As far as Oden? Well, I think he has a ton of potential. In just 24 mpg, he averaged 11.1 rpg, 8.5 rpg and 2.3 bpg on 60.5% shooting and 76.6% from the line. He has a pretty good touch, he's a natural as far as rebounding, shot blocking and defense. Foul trouble was a problem, but that won't be what will hold him back. I've never seen foul trouble end up the difference between a player being good and great. If he doesn't achieve his potential it'll likely be because of health.

He's a great athlete when healthy. [URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8fv810QfY8"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8fv810QfY8[/URL] [URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7HzkEcKITo#t=0m55s"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7HzkEcKITo#t=0m55s[/URL]

And he's very strong. Stronger than Howard and Bynum. Oden backing into Mutombo here reminds me of Shaq in the 2001 finals. [URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hmgn9zkx2Ow#t=7m04s"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hmgn9zkx2Ow#t=7m04s[/URL]

Greg Oden is one of those great shot blockers who keeps the ball in play after his blocks. You can see this in any of his highlight mixes.

Well, even though I'm only in my 20's I did start watching basketball young and I was hooked from the time I was a kid. That was when jordan was in the league and basketball was exciting here in NY thanks to Ewing and the tough teams with Starks, Oakley, Mason, Harper ect. I love the game of basketball in general so i've always been interested in the history of the game and I watch older games whenever I get a chance, thankfully there are plenty of games available from the 80's both regular season and playoffs, some gems from the 70's with prime Kareem and Walton, but unfortunately, not much from the 60's.

[QUOTE=alexandreben]that really depends on the rules...

if Shaq played in the 60's, he will be playing less than 30min due to foul trouble[/QUOTE]

No he wouldn't. :oldlol:

Do you realize how physical the league allowed Chamberlain and Russell to be on the inside? Not just them, but other centers.

[QUOTE=jlauber]
That brings us to Kareem..."the NBA bridge." Kareem was hanging three straight games of 35, 42, and 46 on Hakeem in the 85-86, and at age 39! We all know that Hakeem went on to be generally regarded as the best center in the league in the 90's. He certainly gave Shaq all he could handle in 1995. Shaq, of course, became the dominant player of the 00's. However, for all of Kareem's greatness, he STRUGGLED against BOTH Nate Thurmond and Wilt...and BOTH of those guys were well past their primes. Kareem, in his statistical prime, in the 70-71, 71-72, and 72-73 seasons, did not shoot even 50% against Nate and Wilt, ONE time, in five post-season series. In fact, in a couple of them he barely cleared 40%. And, against Wilt, in Chamberlain's last season, in six regular season games, he was outshot by Chamberlain, .637 to .450. And, once again, both Nate and Wilt were well past their primes. Futhermore, Chamberlain dominated Thurmond early in his career, and thoroughly outrebounded and outshot him in every post-season. In some early games he crushed Thurmond (in one game he outscored him 45-13.) Wilt outrebounded Thurmond in every post-season, as well as held him to below 40% (some WAY below 40%) in EVERY post-season battle (while never shooting less than 50% himself.)
[/QUOTE]

On the bridge tip, Robert Parrish was asked who was the strongest player he faced, he said Artest Gilmore. Not Shaq. Wilt had no problem with Gilmore. Great post again J.