Peak Alonzo Mourning or Peak Dwight Howard

[QUOTE=BFRESH44]:oldlol: There was this guy named Michael Jordan who played in the Eastern Conference in the 90's, when Zo had a team capable of going all the way(96-97 61 win "Road Warriors" Miami Heat).

Dwight would've[B] never[/B] seen the Finals in that era, either.[/QUOTE]

If only the world were built on woulds and coulds......

And what about in '98 when they didn't even make it out of the first round? Despite being the 2nd seed and facing the 7th seed Knicks with HCA?

Can't blame Jordan for that.

In 1999, the Heats best scorers in the playoffs outside of Zo averaged 10.2 PPG (PJ Brown) and 10.0 PPG (Jamal Mashburn). He played with some great teams in those years, Tim Hardaway could take over games and Riley is obviously good, but I felt he was more of the man for his team than Dwight is. You could say Dwight lead his team to the Finals, and he did, but undoubtedly he had (and still has) alot of help on the offensive end - for instance he finished 4th in field goal attempts for the Magic in the 09 post season behind Lewis, Turk, and Alston. That much fire power around you surely opens things up for Dwight, and when teams buckle down on defense (like LA did, and Boston did this last season) it makes it much harder for Howard. If I had to choose a player to generate offense on a not-so-great team, it would probably be Alonzo with his more polished offense.

[QUOTE=zORi]If only the world were built on woulds and coulds......

And what about in '98 when they didn't even make it out of the first round? Despite being the 2nd seed and facing the 7th seed Knicks with HCA?

Can't blame Jordan for that.[/QUOTE]
You forgot to mention that Zo was suspended for game 5 because of the brawl with LJ. He was also playing injured that series cause of a broken nose. He had a mask on for the first 3 games which disrupted his game a bit. Game 4, he had 29 pts on 79% shooting. Nobody could really guard him since Ewing was injured for the series. 1999, his teammates were absolute [b]trash[/b] in the playoffs. Mashburn, the resident chokeartist, saw a severe decline in his game in the postseason. He could never really get going in a structured offense like Miami had. Tim Hardaway shot [b]27%[/b] from the field and was locked up by Childs and Ward. He has to be one of the most overrated point guards from that era. Too reliant on deep / pull up 3s and he lost his explosiveness in his Miami years. How we can blame Zo for this is beyond me.....

[QUOTE]96 - 1st round sweep to CHI
97 - ECF lost to CHI
98 - 1st round to NYK
99 - 1st round to NYK
00 - 2nd round to NYK
01 - 1st round sweep to CHA
02 - Missed playoffs[/QUOTE]
Dwight wouldn't lead them any further. You're kidding yourself if you think otherwise. The thought of Dwight standing up to Rodman makes me cringe. Dude would probably start smiling.

Great comparison. Two very close players.

Many people don't remember Alonzo's defensive impact since it goes beyond stats. Much like David Robinson and Tim Duncan (not quite on their level, but still very good), he had a large defensive impact since he tried hard on both ends of the floor all the time. He had good spacing, almost always contested shots well, and dude put in buckets on the other end.

Let's not forget how much of a beast the guy was 'til '01. Even when he burst onto the scene as a rookie, he was extremely good. I still remember the Zo/LJ combo for the Hornets, lol :P


Howard's a more dominant rebounder though (sort of obvious), but something tells me those stats of his are going to slide a bit within the next couple years. Great centers usually stop going all out for boards after a handful of years when they start to conserve their energy a bit more throughout games so they can play extra minutes.

Still, taking nothing away from him, he's the best defender in the NBA right now, and imo that's not even debatable. My only curent beef with Howard are his offense. If he could somehow improve his FT shooting a bit, or at least develop some extra post moves so he's more of a go-to guy, people will start giving him the props he deserves. It kills me to see people's top 5 or top 10 current NBA players lists, and he's somehow not on it. Dude's a top 3-5 player easily.

Anyway, who to pick. . .I'd probably go with Zo' since he's had the longer career and embarrassed Dwight when he was old once. That said, Howard's still one of my fav' players right now, and I'd bet he gets an MVP and a title or two at some point. . .as the main guy on his team. That'd easily propel him above Zo' in my book. Or even another 3 seasons like he's been putting up.

Two great players. . .good topic!

[QUOTE=SCdac]In 1999, the Heats best scorers in the playoffs outside of Zo averaged 10.2 PPG (PJ Brown) and 10.0 PPG (Jamal Mashburn). He played with some great teams in those years, Tim Hardaway could take over games and Riley is obviously good, but I felt he was more of the man for his team than Dwight is. You could say Dwight lead his team to the Finals, and he did, but undoubtedly he had (and still has) alot of help on the offensive end - for instance he finished 4th in field goal attempts for the Magic in the 09 post season behind Lewis, Turk, and Alston. That much fire power around you surely opens things up for Dwight, and when teams buckle down on defense (like LA did, and Boston did this last season) it makes it much harder for Howard. If I had to choose a player to generate offense on a not-so-great team, it would probably be Alonzo with his more polished offense.[/QUOTE]

No doubt that Howard had more help in '09 than Zo in '99 or '00, but I think just FGA are deceptive, Dwight gets fouled on a lot of his attempts because his game is around the rim. Here are their attempts if you divide the FTA by 2 and add them to the FGA and call them scoring attempts.

Here are their numbers for the 2009 playoffs

[B]1.Lewis-[/B] 16.9 scoring attempts
[B]2.Howard-[/B] 16.6 scoring attempts
[B]3.Turkoglu-[/B] 14.7 scoring attempts
[B]4.Alston-[/B] 13.1 scoring attempts

Lewis and Howard were basically identical, but Orlando's offense did revolve more around Howard than Lewis and he was definitely doubled more than Lewis.

Getting away from the direct comparison a bit... I know this thread was about two particular season for these guys, even though it's turned into an all-around comparison... seems like people have quickly forgotten that Dwight is just a couple years removed from a second and first round rout by the Pistons... and that he just came off a 18 PPG reg season and post season, which is sort of underwhelming for a supposed "superstar", who should be a 20 PPG or more player with the tools he has... the way he's talked about as one of the greatest big men to grace the game, is a head scratcher to me... He reminds me of like a very rich man's Andris Biedrins, versus say a really poor man's Shaq... I think there's a reason about 90% of the people in this thread, including the OP, have picked Zo ('s season) as the better one.

It's really unfaire to compare a 24-25 years old DH12 with Zo... I wonder what a real Peak, 27-28 years old, DH12 could be...

[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]No doubt that Howard had more help in '09 than Zo in '99 or '00, but I think just FGA are deceptive, Dwight gets fouled on a lot of his attempts because his game is around the rim. Here are their attempts if you divide the FTA by 2 and add them to the FGA and call them scoring attempts.

Here are their numbers for the 2009 playoffs

[B]1.Lewis-[/B] 16.9 scoring attempts
[B]2.Howard-[/B] 16.6 scoring attempts
[B]3.Turkoglu-[/B] 14.7 scoring attempts
[B]4.Alston-[/B] 13.1 scoring attempts

Lewis and Howard were basically identical, but Orlando's offense did revolve more around Howard than Lewis and he was definitely doubled more than Lewis.[/QUOTE]

I don't think it's deceptive at all.

When the PF and SF are taking over 200 three pointers combined in the playoffs, it gives the center a certain amount of room to operate. I definitely saw a reciprocal offensive system, versus one that was merely and solely inside-out. There were a good amount of games where one of Lewis, Pietrus, Turk, etc, lead in scoring. I don't quite see Howard as an elite offensive player in the mold of some past players, as much as a player who is above-average offensively, who can go off for elite-like scoring games. His moves and touch just isn't there [I]consistently[/I] enough.

Howard gets to the line very well on his own accord, he's almost impossible to keep of the glass at times, but surely teams don't mind and even put him on the line on purpose. It gets the other team in foul trouble, but 6 fouls for a bunch of bigs isn't that hard to expend, and making only 55-65% of your free throws, that tends to be the kind of player "hack a ____" strategies are based on. I'd rather make Howard go to the line and earn his points on every possession, than let him get easy buckets.

[QUOTE=alexandreben]It's really unfaire to compare a 24-25 years old DH12 with Zo... I wonder what a real Peak, 27-28 years old, DH12 could be...[/QUOTE]

Why are we absolutely, with a great amount of certainty, assuming he's going to become much better than he is now? Merely because weeks and months go by? I do think he'll improve with experience, but if anything, he's regressed in the past season... and it's not about statistics really, it's about him, his keenness and acumen, or lack thereof, and is he willing to (or can he) improve on it.

[QUOTE=SCdac]Getting away from the direct comparison a bit... I know this thread was about two particular season for these guys, even though it's turned into an all-around comparison... seems like people have quickly forgotten that Dwight is just a couple years removed from a second and first round rout by the Pistons... and that he just came off a 18 PPG reg season and post season, which is sort of underwhelming for a supposed "superstar", who should be a 20 PPG or more player with the tools he has... the way he's talked about as one of the greatest big men to grace the game, is a head scratcher to me... He reminds me of like a very rich man's Andris Biedrins, versus say a really poor man's Shaq... I think there's a reason about 90% of the people in this thread, including the OP, have picked Zo ('s season) as the better one.[/QUOTE]

Even a very rich man's Biedrins is harsh, IMO. While Dwight isn't that polished offensively, I've still seen better post moves from Howard than Biedrins, he has off the charts athleticism and his defensive impact is light years ahead of Biedrins. I think he's too far away from either Biedrins or Shaq to make a comparison. That's why I made the comparison here, Howard to me is a less skilled, more athletic Mourning and in the end, I take the skills because they're more reliable when the production is similar.

And we do basically have a consensus so far.

[B]Mourning[/B]
Me
lukekarts
Rose
ronnymac
2Letters
Sarcastic
BFRESH44
AlonzoMagic
CambyLandCan
Jasper
SCdac
Thorpesaurus
LAClipsFan33
andgar923
necya
Manute for ever
Dwade305
tontoz
FindingTim
zORI
RocketGreatness
Showtime
nbacardDOTnet
DatWasNashty
oh the horror
triangleoffense
EarlTheGoat
jstern
greymatter
Nastradamus
SinJackal

[B]Howard[/B]
Bladers
joyner82
Magic Vinsanity
Shep
ChuckOakley
jbryan1984

31 have picked Zo and 6 have picked Howard

Dwight Howard hasn't peaked yet.

[QUOTE=DatWasNashty]You forgot to mention that Zo was suspended for game 5 because of the brawl with LJ. He was also playing injured that series cause of a broken nose. He had a mask on for the first 3 games which disrupted his game a bit. Game 4, he had 29 pts on 79% shooting. Nobody could really guard him since Ewing was injured for the series. 1999, his teammates were absolute [b]trash[/b] in the playoffs. Mashburn, the resident chokeartist, saw a severe decline in his game in the postseason. He could never really get going in a structured offense like Miami had. Tim Hardaway shot [b]27%[/b] from the field and was locked up by Childs and Ward. He has to be one of the most overrated point guards from that era. Too reliant on deep / pull up 3s and he lost his explosiveness in his Miami years. How we can blame Zo for this is beyond me.....


Dwight wouldn't lead them any further. You're kidding yourself if you think otherwise. The thought of Dwight standing up to Rodman makes me cringe. Dude would probably start smiling.[/QUOTE]

Nah I didn't forget to mention, I could also counter that with the fact that the only team Zo ever beat Ewing in a series was when Ewing (and most of his team) was suspended for multiple games because of a fight.

Or that fact that in 1999 Zo was 28 (turned 28 about a month and a half before the start), while Ewing was 36 (turning 37 about 3 and a half months later). Poor excuse.

I also wasn't blaming Zo, I was just saying it's not like he had a beautiful career with no blemishes. Every player has.

Seriously, this smiling thing is getting ridiculous. He jokes around during games, but never when it's close, not only that, but almost every player does this. I could find a clip or 2 of Kobe playing around with Wade and Nash during games, it happens. I bet everyone who has to guard him doesn't think he's too nice.

BTW, I'm starting to think that people here are thinking I don't like Zo. I do, actually, but the notion that Dwight can't approach him is ridiculous.

[QUOTE=SCdac]Why are we absolutely, with a great amount of certainty, assuming he's going to become much better than he is now? Merely because weeks and months go by? I do think he'll improve with experience, but if anything, he's regressed in the past season... and it's not about statistics really, it's about him, his keenness and acumen, or lack thereof, and is he willing to (or can he) improve on it.[/QUOTE]

He's bound to increase a little, but the opportunity is there for him to increase quite a bit.

We can't say that he will, but we also can't say that he won't, either.

[QUOTE=ZenMaster]Dwight Howard hasn't peaked yet.[/QUOTE]

You sure? He's not going to be running and jumping around like this at 27. He has no fundamentals.

Alonzo, but I am also a Heat fan so..