Very disturbing charts on the wealth imbalance in USA

[QUOTE=sawyersauce]Re-read the chart.

That's not the bottom 10%. That's the bottom 90%.[/QUOTE]
you're right, I completely f*cked that up...thank you

[QUOTE=-playmaker-]you're right, I completely f*cked that up...thank you[/QUOTE]

You're welcome.

It was a nit-pick, but I figured that mis-read was shaping your latter argument.

[QUOTE=sawyersauce]You're welcome.

It was a nit-pick, but I figured that mis-read was shaping your latter argument.[/QUOTE]
yes it was...not a nit pick at all really...It actually had a great deal to do with how I viewed the entire thing...

the later charts go on to say that the average medium net worth is $120k or so though...how is that even possible making 30k a year?

seems like a lot of this you just kind of have to accept...and it also feels like a lot of it is very misleading...



but whatever...I am just trying to worry about myself, I know this country is far from perfect...but we are still much better off than most...

it also says your odds of being a millionare are 1 in 22...

that seems very high to me, not low...that is a shit load of millionares...

[QUOTE=joe]My brother in law worked for a mortgage company, and he feels some of the same guilt you speak of. Got to do what you got to do to support yourself/the family, though.

He worked with people to re-structure the terms of their mortgage, so they wouldn't have to default. This generally let people lower their monthly fee, but added years and years of repayment overall, and of course much more interest to be paid overall as well.[/QUOTE]


It's an incredibly volatile situation. The people buying the home want the loan, even if they can't afford it (or don't know they can't afford it). I want to sell them the home, because that's how I earn my living... and the loan officer is in the same boat. Everyone wants to get the deal done, so if there is anyway (sub-prime loan) to get it done, everyone turns a blind eye to the possible problems down the road. The entire situation was like a perfect storm, and when you throw big money commissions into the equation, it turns into a tornado. At times, it didn't even seem real. Like we were operating outside the box, in some fantasy world. I imagine that's what it must feel like for the people working on wall street as well. Playing with peoples livelyhoods like it's funny money in fantasy world. I considered becoming a stockbrocker or investment analyst coming out of College, but I got into real estate because I thought I could make a good living providing an honest service (and because many of my family members work in real estate). For the most part I feel like I have stayed true to myself, but there is no doubt that I've ruined peoples lives to improve my standard of living, and its something I think about all of the time.

Sorry for the rant. It's late, I'm tired.

[QUOTE=bdreason]It's an incredibly volatile situation. The people buying the home want the loan, even if they can't afford it (or don't know they can't afford it). I want to sell them the home, because that's how I earn my living... and the loan officer is in the same boat. Everyone wants to get the deal done, so if there is anyway (sub-prime loan) to get it done, everyone turns a blind eye to the possible problems down the road. The entire situation was like a perfect storm, and when you throw big money commissions into the equation, it turns into a tornado. At times, it didn't even seem real. Like we were operating outside the box, in some fantasy world. I imagine that's what it must feel like for the people working on wall street as well. Playing with peoples livelyhoods like it's funny money in fantasy world. I considered becoming a stockbrocker or investment analyst coming out of College, but I got into real estate because I thought I could make a good living providing an honest service (and because many of my family members work in real estate). For the most part I feel like I have stayed true to myself, but there is no doubt that I've ruined peoples lives to improve my standard of living, and its something I think about all of the time.[/QUOTE]

It's a volatile situation indeed, but there's a few other factors that need to be mentioned.

1- Those mortgage companies messed up, no doubt about it. Not only was it immoral to make those loans, but it was also very bad business. If you know someone can't pay back a loan, you shouldn't make the loan. You're getting screwed just as much as them in the end.

It's those business practices that should have put these companies out of business, yet we bailed many of these companies out. What would've happened if we let them fail? Well, many people would lose their jobs (maybe even you). There would be a lot of mis-allocated resources in the economy, causing a recession (or a dip). However, in place of those failed companies, over time, newer and better mortgage companies would emerge. These new companies would create more jobs, and create more wealth in the economy. The recession could end peacefully.

But what we did instead was bail them out. Now we're stuck with companies that the people clearly don't want, as they failed. Just to save a few jobs? That's not how capitalism is supposed to work.

The good companies should survive, the bad companies should die off.

2) It's in large part the federal reserves fault, for messing with interest rates. They keep rates too low, allowing any schmoe to get bank loans, regardless of if they can realistically pay it back. Since banks can get money from the fed damn near anytime they want, they've lowered lending standards. This led to many people having loans that SHOULDN'T have had them to begin with.

If those people couldn't get loans, like they wouldn't be able to in a free market economy.. everyone and their brother couldn't go and buy a house as a supposed "investment."

The argument for and against deregulation, or how much deregulation was to blame for the entire situation is an interesting topic. I'll post my opinions tomorrow when I'm not half asleep. I will say that, in the end, the federal reserve is really the one dictating everything. That's reason enough to require significant regulation, if for no other reason than to dampen the boom and bust cycles the Fed creates. Less regulation, less government, and truely free markets would obviously be ideal if we weren't dealing with a central banking system that calls all the shots, and answers to nobody.

[QUOTE=bdreason]The argument for and against deregulation, or how much deregulation was to blame for the entire situation is an interesting topic. I'll post my opinions tomorrow when I'm not half asleep. I will say that, in the end, the federal reserve is really the one dictating everything. That's reason enough to require significant regulation, if for no other reason than to dampen the boom and bust cycles the Fed creates.[B] Less regulation, less government, and truely free markets would obviously be ideal if we weren't dealing with a central banking system that calls all the shots, and answers to nobody.[/B][/QUOTE]

Totally agree with the bolded. If you do post those thoughts I'll make sure to read them.

Anyone in here still think capitalism is the problem? If so open your mind. This country was built on capitalism, and we had our most prosperous times because of it. Along with the constitution, it's the most important building block of our country. Sadly, both of those things are very misunderstood and trampled upon in 2011.

just have a few questions

if things get worse, rich get richer poor poorer, would a revolution happen?

[QUOTE=Stuckey]just have a few questions

if things get worse, rich get richer poor poorer, would a revolution happen?[/QUOTE]

Idk if this was directed at me but I'll answer it anyways because I'm bored.

As far as a violent revolution, I don't really see that happening right now. People don't care enough about this stuff to risk their lives for it. But a revolution of thought is certainly possible, especially if things get bad enough.

It seems somewhat of a revolution of thought is going on right now, but it's fighting for the wrong things. A lot of young people got excited about politics in 2008, I was one of them, but we keep begging for our own destruction. We want socialized medicine. Bigger government. Less freedoms in exchange for protection from terrorism.

Some people are on the right track, however.

If the rich keep getting richer, poor keep getting poorer, my hope is that THIS is the revolution:

People realize our government has been hijacked by corporations, and our politicians are corrupt. They are disregarding the constitution at every turn, and that needs to be stopped. The government must be shrunk, and we need to bring our troops home from EVERYWHERE, not just the middle east. We want our personal liberties back, and in return we'll abolish this welfare state. Real capitalism is to be restored. We want the return of sound money, which means the federal reserve shall be abolished, and we go back on the gold standard. We want much fewer regulations on business. We need less prisoners, and companies shouldn't profit from putting people behind bars. End of the drug war. Legalization of marijuana and other drugs. FREEDOM. The constitution restored, and followed strictly.

My fear is that THIS may be the revolution:

We desire socialist policies because that's the only "fair" way to do things. It's not right that some people are filthy rich while others can't afford food. We want these dirty businessmen to give some of their wealth to us. We want "free" healthcare, even though it's entirely unconstitutional and will cost a bunch in taxes. The constitution is outdated, and only restricts us from growing as a country. We need harsher regulations on business because that's the only way to keep them from stealing from the poor. We need more military spending because terrorists lurk at every turn. We need more welfare because I don't want to support myself. More "republican Vs Democrat" non-sense, when the fact is they're nearly the exact same thing, policy wise.

What I think will probably happen?

People will continue to not really care about any of this. They think hell, the country's messed up but why should I care? I just want to live my life and enjoy it, no sense in worrying about politics.

That attitude, which currently permeates most of the country.. will continue on until the dollar collapses. At that point people will want answers, and because they're still not educated, they'll be convinced that "what they need is THIsss...", with "THIssss" being more policy that keeps the current powers that be in power, so they can continue to pass ridiculous legislation that helps no one but themselves.

Naysayers will continue to be marginalized in the media. Ignorant Americans will continue to believe everything the news tells them, because, "if they're on tv, they must know what they're talking about."

And then the masses will be convinced that they want more socialization in the government. That they want more war. That it's good for them, good for us as a country. Just as they're being convinced of that now by Obama and his cronies.

And the people will not only get what they want.. but they will beg for it. For the very things that will bring us down in the end.

Sad face.

you really think the dollar will collapse?

[QUOTE=Stuckey]you really think the dollar will collapse?[/QUOTE]

I do think so sadly. I could be wrong, but from my own research.. and from the words of experts I trust on this topic.. that seems to be where we're headed unless there's major changes. And FAST. But that doesn't seem likely.

The basic problem is the federal reserve keeps inflating the dollar. It's losing its worth steadily over time, and relatively sharply in the last few years. That obviously doesn't make all of our debtors happy. China especially. There's no possible way we'll ever be able to pay China back everything we owe them.

Meanwhile, we're not taking any steps to help that situation. We're still inflating. We're making it impossible for new businesses to form, ones that actually produce things (thanks to all of our regulations, taxes, etc.) If we had businesses exporting products, it'd lower our trade deficit. But most businesses we have are consumer businesses, that don't produce goods. Things like movie theatres, wal-mart, etc. That's all well and good, but it doesn't help the trade deficit. And more importantly, most of the goods we buy are from other countries (because we don't produce much). That helps the other countries while simultaneously hurting us.

While this is all going on, China keeps propping us up. They allow us to raise the trade ceiling. They keep exporting us products at a deficit. They buy our dollars.

But what may (and I think will) happen eventually, is China will get tired of that. They will realize we aren't making any changes that would help us to pay them back in the future. The dollar will keep being worth less and less over time. Eventually, China will pull out. They'll stop supporting us.

When that happens.... is when the dollar would collapse. And our economy will be in shambles.

Many say the Chinese would never do this, because we're their biggest exporter. Without us, who would they sell all of their stuff too? And while it's true that it'll hurt them a bit in the short term, in the long term dropping us will only strengthen their economy and quality of life. Instead of exporting all of their products to us, the Chinese people will actually be able to enjoy some of those things for themselves. There's plenty of people in China with money to spend.

I'm still in the continuous process of educating myself on these things as well, so I may be missing some additional details. But that's basically the bare bones of the situation.

Also, it's important to note that this is nothing unexpected. This is what happens to countries that use paper money, as we do. Our money used to be backed by gold, but is no longer. When the money isn't "tied down," so to speak, the way of things is inflation, corruption, and everything else we see. The only answer is to abolish the federal reserve. And while that is just one of the many things that need to happen for America to get back on track, it may very well be the most important.

It's also important to note that there's no guaranteed time line of when this will happen. It could happen this year, it could be in the next few years. It depends on how China decides to play it. But from what I'm hearing from reliable experts, and from what I read, it will happen. Barring a miracle of policy change in the USA, that is.

healthy inflation is 5% a year and we have been below that recently...we aren't inflating much, our shit is going down in value...we have been deflating at times even...

we owe China an amount that is near impossible to pay back they guess what....they have a huge debt with us as well...

in order for the dollar to collapse there needs to be hyperinflation and that isn't anywhere in our near future...

[IMG]http://www.dollarsandsense.org/archives/2009/Inflation500x312.gif[/IMG]


^^^ see that, we were deflating there for a while during that recession, meaning that the dollar gained value...people are hungry for money


but that is a BAD THING ALSO...obviously

for the economy to remain healthy, 5% inflation is needed...inflation like that let's our property rise and gain value...

you buy a house 15 years ago, and you are still making payments on it based on what the dollar was valued BACK THEN!!!

so inflation is good for home owners...you see?

if we were to inflate to the point that 1,000 is nothing, then suddenly my morgage payments are nothing...(extreme example, obviously that would be a bad thing if 1,000 was nothing)

but can you see how a little inflation helps the economy?...it raises the value of what we own...