Would Bulls fans trade Derrick Rose for LeBron James if they had the chance?

[QUOTE=chazzy]And his TS% is lower this year... so what's your point?[/QUOTE]

Its 1% lower. Completely inaccurate in terms of efficiency. I know you love TS%, but its much better to look at the raw data.

Deng is shooting 6% worse from the field (includes both 2s and 3s) and 2.5% worse from the ft line (on less attempts this year)....yet his TS% is only 1% lower this year.

LOL

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]actually it doesn't. look at the numbers. its ridiculous that the ts% would be that close from 07 to this year.

its a flawed stat. its ok, but its much better to look at the raw numbers.
[B]
in 07 Deng took almost no threes. he missed a lot less shots and shot better from the ft line.[/B]

raw data is always better.[/QUOTE]

ts% is raw data.

threes are very useful and if you think his ts% should be lower this year than you are undervaluing threes.

[QUOTE=guy]Not a chance. Rose is way too loved by the fans, teammates, and coaches. Trading away Rose would be the Celtics trading away Perkins x 1000 as far as the reaction to it goes.

Not to mention the following:

He's younger.

He doesn't care about anything but basketball and winning, unlike Lebron who does care too much about his stats and too much off the court stuff like his "brand".

If the Bulls want him, he'll be there for the rest of his career, which could be 10-15 years. If the Bulls don't win enough in the 4-5 years, good chance Lebron leaves. If he didn't have a problem leaving Cleveland after winning 60 games for back to back seasons, he'd have less of a problem leaving a team that wasn't his hometown and was traded to.

Its not like trading Rose for Lebron makes this team so much better, if better at all. You don't get much better then a title contender winning 60 games and the no. 1 seed with a bunch of injuries to some of your best players. Lebron won't make this team that much, if better at all, to make up for all those reasons I've mentioned above.[/QUOTE]

Like I said, I don't think people are really saying Rose because they think he's better. Its the relationship he has with the community/team, his age, focus, loyalty, and the difference between the two not being large enough that is the reason.

[QUOTE=chips93]ts% is raw data.

threes are very useful and if you think his ts% should be lower this year than you are undervaluing threes.[/QUOTE]

its not raw data. sorry.

fg% is raw. it just counts how many shots you make and miss. efg% and ts% over value threes. they don't factor in the other side of the equation. missed threes often lead to transition opportunities for the other team.

its just not a great measure. i don't mind it in some cases, but in this case its way off.

missed shots hurt. they hurt a lot more than these advanced metrics account for.

i've had this argument before. its better to look at all the raw data. ts% covers up way too much. if you just looked at ts%, the gap between players is just too small.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Nah, Deng is just like every other player in the league scoring around 18 points. Deng's value comes from him being a utility player that can play good defense, rebound, and [U][B]score when you need it[/B][/U]. [B][U]He absolutely can get his own shot[/U][/B], but that isn't even relevant. He scores a lot of his points without being a ball stopper. That is a huge positive. So you see invisible and I see a lamar odom type player that can put up great numbers without having a lot of plays run for him.

Deng is about as good of a third option as there is in the league and is a great all around player in that role.

[B][U]He's not having the best year of his career[/U][/B]. That would be 07 actually. Good effort.[/QUOTE]
1.) Deng is not the player you count on to score when you need it. He followed up a 40 point game this year with a dud. He used to disappear in games but you wouldn't know that because you look at stats and not game footage.

2.) No, he cannot get his own shot off against tough d. Not on a regular basis at all. You are wrong sir.


3.) His defense has improved, he is more consistent....in 07 he was not as good of a finisher as he is now....he's more consistent now, and he plays more minutes and has more confidence. (also things you can tell by WATCHING GAMES).

[QUOTE=Go Getter]1.) Deng is not the player you count on to score when you need it. He followed up a 40 point game this year with a dud. He used to disdappear in games but you wouldn't know that because you look at stats and not game footage.

2.) No, he cannot get his own shot off against tough d. Not on a regular basis at all. You are wrong sir.


3.) His defense has improved, he is more consistent....in 07 he was not as good of a finisher as he is now....he's more consistent now, and he plays more minutes and has more confidence. (also things you can tell by WATCHING GAMES).[/QUOTE]

He's a third option. Nobody is claiming Deng to be a superstar.

WTF are you talking about. Jason Terry can't get his own shot against tough defense. Deng offensively is very similar to all players scoring at this number. That is part of what makes him good. He's not a wing ISO player.

Acting like he can't get his own shot at times is absurd though. Of course he's not Dirk. Nobody is saying that.

Deng played good defense back in 07 as well. I love Deng. I'm saying that pretending like Deng is some limited offensive player is a joke. Deng is a very good overall player and one of the best third options in the league when you factor in his entire game.

You acted like Rose is working with some unproven offensive players. Both Deng and Boozer were putting up solid offensive numbers before Rose entered the league. Now they can't get off anything without Rose?

LOL

The Bulls don't even have a top ten offense. You act like Rose is turning water into wine by with this team offensively.

the correct answer is no.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]its not raw data. sorry.

fg% is raw. it just counts how many shots you make and miss. efg% and ts% over value threes. they don't factor in the other side of the equation. missed threes often lead to transition opportunities for the other team.

its just not a great measure. i don't mind it in some cases, but in this case its way off.
[B]
missed shots hurt. they hurt a lot more than these advanced metrics account for.[/B]

i've had this argument before. its better to look at all the raw data. ts% covers up way too much. if you just looked at ts%, the gap between players is just too small.[/QUOTE]


tbh i never really thought of it that way, but i still think ts% is very good. while a missed three could give up a fast break, a made three spaces the floor. i dont think it makes that big of a difference whether its a missed three or a missed two

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Its 1% lower. Completely inaccurate in terms of efficiency. I know you love TS%,[/QUOTE]How do you know that? I've never spoken to you before, unless you'll admit you're ginobli on a sock account for some weird reason.
[QUOTE]Deng is shooting 6% worse from the field (includes both 2s and 3s) and 2.5% worse from the ft line (on less attempts this year)....yet his TS% is only 1% lower this year.

LOL[/QUOTE]
Why are you LOLing as if you know the true margin of 1.2 TS%? If you take the same amount of shots and 1.4 of your makes is a 3 in one year and 0 in the other, it's gonna boost your efficiency because of that extra point. He's also getting to the line at a slightly better rate and the FT% differential is marginal considering the small number of attempts in the first place. And in the end it's less efficient either way..
[QUOTE] missed threes often lead to transition opportunities for the other team.[/QUOTE]
What does that have to do with how efficiently you score the ball? That's all that TS% tells you and should be used as

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]He's a third option. Nobody is claiming Deng to be a superstar.

WTF are you talking about. Jason Terry can't get his own shot against tough defense. Deng offensively is very similar to all players scoring at this number. That is part of what makes him good. He's not a wing ISO player.

Acting like he can't get his own shot at times is absurd though. Of course he's not Dirk. Nobody is saying that.

Deng played good defense back in 07 as well. I love Deng. I'm saying that pretending like Deng is some limited offensive player is a joke. Deng is a very good overall player and one of the best third options in the league when you factor in his entire game.

You acted like Rose is working with some unproven offensive players. Both Deng and Boozer were putting up solid offensive numbers before Rose entered the league. [B]Now they can't get off anything without Rose?[/B]

LOL[/QUOTE]
You just made that shit up out of your bat shit crazy mind.

I said nothing of the sort.

He needs SOMEONE to feed him the ball (not necesasrily Rose, no one is saying that only Rose can get him the ball BUT if it was Steve Nash they'd say he MADE Deng and no one would argue....but I digress).

Most of his game centers around his mid range jumpshot.

You're just like the other trolls, trying to skew an argument to make the Bulls and Bulls fans look bad.

:no:

Go Getter is completely right about Deng. Yes others are partly right too. He has always been a 17-18 PPG scorer, but he CAN NOT consistently create his own shot to the extent where running ISO's for him is beneficial for the team as a whole.

The worst part about all these posters raining there analysis of the Bulls is they haven't been watching the Bulls consistently for at the very least the last decade or so. Go Getter has, and I've known that for a while now on these boards.

Yes Deng's mid-range game is very effective. His shooting percentages were always very high because he rarely took many 3's before this season. There was a point where the Bulls organization felt Deng could be a franchise or number one/two option for there team. If anyone recalls, that was the year we took out the Heat in the first round after they won a championship, and the Bulls effectively shot down Kobe trade talks that would involve sending out Deng because we were that HIGH on Deng's up-side.

However, it became evident the next couple seasons that Deng is not the type of player that you can make the number one or two option. That is because he is not effective as a go to scorer who has to create for himself. Can he occasionally make a step back or pull up in ISO? Yes, but it would lead to a stagnant overall offense if we depended on him to do that often during a game. When Deng and Ben Gordon were the focal points of the Bulls offense, too many times you would have either or both give up a wide open shot just so they could bring it back and try to create there own shot. The offense was just plain ugly. Our offense now is a thing of beauty compared to what it was just a few years ago.

This is no knock on Deng at all. He has found the perfect niche for his play style, which is an excellent cutter, and off the ball player. The fact that he has improved his spot-up three point shot is just a testimont to how well this Bulls organization, coach, and players have managed to convince each and every player that they have a specific role to this team. Each player has embraced that, and as a result of the synergy the overall product is just so refreshing for long-time Bulls fans who have been forced to watch the out of control offenses back in the early 2000's.

[QUOTE=chazzy]How do you know that? I've never spoken to you before, unless you'll admit you're ginobli on a sock account for some weird reason.

Why are you LOLing as if you know the true margin of 1.2 TS%? If you take the same amount of shots and 1.4 of your makes is a 3 in one year and 0 in the other, it's gonna boost your efficiency because of that extra point. He's also getting to the line at a slightly better rate and the FT% differential is marginal considering the small number of attempts in the first place. And in the end it's less efficient either way..[/QUOTE]

What?

Deng averaged 4.4 free throws in 37.5 minutes in 07.
Deng is averaging 4.2 free throws in in 39.2 minutes this year.

How is that getting to the line at a better rate? Please answer.

Like I said before, TS% is fine in some cases. In other cases, like this one, its totally misleading.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]What?

Deng averaged 4.4 free throws in 37.5 minutes in 07.
Deng is averaging 4.2 free throws in in 39.2 minutes this year.

How is that getting to the line at a better rate? Please answer.

Like I said before, TS% is fine in some cases. In other cases, like this one, its totally misleading.[/QUOTE]
Minutes have nothing to do with efficiency, he's getting to the line at a slightly better rate relative to his FGA.

[QUOTE=chips93]again good point, things i hadnt considered, i would disagree with the bolded tho. and broken down play is essentially the same as shot clock situation.[/QUOTE]
Not exactly.

When a play breaks down the spacing and timing gets off course then sometimes it is necessary for a player to take things into his own hands.

Creating a good shot out of nothing is an art, a skill, and very few players can do that at this level.

[QUOTE=chazzy]Minutes have nothing to do with efficiency, he's getting to the line at a slightly better rate relative to his FGA.[/QUOTE]

LOL

Being on the floor longer leads to more opportunities to be fouled. Another flawed way of thinking. You don't have to shoot to get to the ft line.