[QUOTE=eliteballer]
Magic was 3 years younger and CLEARLY outplayed Bird in the Finals. You have NO counter for that.[/QUOTE]
Bird was injured.
Printable View
[QUOTE=eliteballer]
Magic was 3 years younger and CLEARLY outplayed Bird in the Finals. You have NO counter for that.[/QUOTE]
Bird was injured.
[QUOTE=eliteballer]
Magic was 3 years younger and CLEARLY outplayed Bird in the Finals. You have NO counter for that.[/QUOTE]
It's not clear what I'm supposed to be countering. Which finals are you referring to?
[QUOTE=Champ]It's not clear what I'm supposed to be countering. Which finals are you referring to?[/QUOTE]
I'm assuming '85 when Bird played the entire postseason with a broken thumb.
85 AND 87. His numbers were also clearly better in 84 even if he made a couple of mistakes down the stretch of games.
[QUOTE=eliteballer]His numbers were also clearly better in 84 even if he made a couple of mistakes down the stretch of games.[/QUOTE]
:facepalm
And with that, I say "goodnight".
[QUOTE=eliteballer]85 AND 87. His numbers were also clearly better in 84 even if he made a couple of mistakes down the stretch of games.[/QUOTE]
Magic was a better player and he did outplay Bird in '87.
Magic also played better in '85, but then again Bird wasn't 100%.
I clearly give the edge to Bird in '84. Much better scorer, more active on the boards, and he came threw in the clutch while Magic didn't.
[B][COLOR="darkgreen"]Bird [/COLOR]was A [COLOR="DarkGreen"][U]WAY[/U] [U]BETTER DEFENDER[/U][/COLOR] Than Magic Was[/B]
[B][U]Defensive Rating [/U]
1979-80 NBA 98.2 (6)
1980-81 NBA 98.6 (10)
1981-82 NBA 99.4 (6)
[U][COLOR="Green"]1983-84 NBA 100.8 (2)[/COLOR][/U]
1984-85 NBA 102.8 (9)
1985-86 NBA 99.4 (4)
Career NBA 101.4 (61)
[B][U]NBA & ABA Yearly Playoff Leaders and Records for Defensive Rating[/U][/B]
2012 NBA Josh Smith 93.20 ATL
2011 NBA Dwight Howard 95.73 ORL
2010 NBA Dwight Howard 92.98 ORL
2009 NBA Dwight Howard 98.35 ORL
2008 NBA Tim Duncan 98.51 SAS
2007 NBA Jason Kidd 94.63 NJN
2006 NBA Alonzo Mourning 95.13 MIA
2005 NBA Ben Wallace 93.48 DET
2004 NBA Ben Wallace 83.91 DET
2003 NBA Ben Wallace 90.51 DET
2002 NBA Ben Wallace 86.41 DET
2001 NBA David Robinson* 92.42 SAS
2000 NBA David Robinson* 84.01 SAS
1999 NBA David Robinson* 87.33 SAS
1998 NBA David Robinson* 93.42 SAS
1997 NBA Alonzo Mourning 94.64 MIA
1996 NBA Scottie Pippen* 96.07 CHI
1995 NBA David Robinson* 97.53 SAS
1994 NBA Patrick Ewing* 94.34 NYK
1993 NBA Hakeem Olajuwon* 96.56 HOU
1992 NBA Dennis Rodman* 99.35 DET
1991 NBA Scottie Pippen* 99.52 CHI
1990 NBA Bill Laimbeer 96.32 DET
1989 NBA Dennis Rodman* 99.38 DET
1988 NBA Bill Laimbeer 99.51 DET
1987 NBA Hakeem Olajuwon* 102.24 HOU
1986 NBA Bill Walton* 100.62 BOS
1985 NBA Ralph Sampson* 97.16 HOU
1984 NBA Buck Williams 99.41 NJN
1983 NBA Moses Malone* 95.76 PHI
[COLOR="green"][U]1982 NBA Larry Bird* 94.21 BOS[/U][/COLOR]
1981 NBA Truck Robinson 94.51 PHO
[U][COLOR="green"]1980 NBA Larry Bird* 95.93 BOS[/COLOR][/U]
[U]Defensive Win Shares[/U]
[COLOR="green"]1979-80 NBA 5.6 (1) [/COLOR]
[COLOR="green"][U]1980-81 NBA 6.1 (1) [/U][/COLOR]
1981-82 NBA 5.7 (2)
1982-83 NBA 5.6 (5)
[COLOR="green"][U]1983-84 NBA 5.6 (1) [/U][/COLOR]
1984-85 NBA 5.2 (2)
[COLOR="green"][U]1985-86 NBA 6.2 (1) [/U][/COLOR]
1986-87 NBA 4.8 (6)
Career NBA 59.0 (25)[/B]
[QUOTE=Round Mound][B][COLOR="darkgreen"]Bird [/COLOR]was A [COLOR="DarkGreen"][U]WAY[/U] [U]BETTER DEFENDER[/U][/COLOR] Than Magic Was[/B]
[B][U]Defensive Rating [/U][/B]
1979-80 NBA 98.2 (6)
1980-81 NBA 98.6 (10)
1981-82 NBA 99.4 (6)
[U][COLOR="Green"]1983-84 NBA 100.8 (2)[/COLOR][/U]
1984-85 NBA 102.8 (9)
1985-86 NBA 99.4 (4)
Career NBA 101.4 (61)
[B][U]NBA & ABA Yearly Playoff Leaders and Records for Defensive Rating[/U][/B]
2012 NBA Josh Smith 93.20 ATL
2011 NBA Dwight Howard 95.73 ORL
2010 NBA Dwight Howard 92.98 ORL
2009 NBA Dwight Howard 98.35 ORL
2008 NBA Tim Duncan 98.51 SAS
2007 NBA Jason Kidd 94.63 NJN
2006 NBA Alonzo Mourning 95.13 MIA
2005 NBA Ben Wallace 93.48 DET
2004 NBA Ben Wallace 83.91 DET
2003 NBA Ben Wallace 90.51 DET
2002 NBA Ben Wallace 86.41 DET
2001 NBA David Robinson* 92.42 SAS
2000 NBA David Robinson* 84.01 SAS
1999 NBA David Robinson* 87.33 SAS
1998 NBA David Robinson* 93.42 SAS
1997 NBA Alonzo Mourning 94.64 MIA
1996 NBA Scottie Pippen* 96.07 CHI
1995 NBA David Robinson* 97.53 SAS
1994 NBA Patrick Ewing* 94.34 NYK
1993 NBA Hakeem Olajuwon* 96.56 HOU
1992 NBA Dennis Rodman* 99.35 DET
1991 NBA Scottie Pippen* 99.52 CHI
1990 NBA Bill Laimbeer 96.32 DET
1989 NBA Dennis Rodman* 99.38 DET
1988 NBA Bill Laimbeer 99.51 DET
1987 NBA Hakeem Olajuwon* 102.24 HOU
1986 NBA Bill Walton* 100.62 BOS
1985 NBA Ralph Sampson* 97.16 HOU
1984 NBA Buck Williams 99.41 NJN
1983 NBA Moses Malone* 95.76 PHI
[COLOR="green"][U]1982 NBA Larry Bird* 94.21 BOS[/U][/COLOR]
1981 NBA Truck Robinson 94.51 PHO
[U][COLOR="green"]1980 NBA Larry Bird* 95.93 BOS[/COLOR][/U]
[B][U]Defensive Win Shares [/U[/B]]
[COLOR="green"]1979-80 NBA 5.6 (1) [/COLOR]
[COLOR="green"][U]1980-81 NBA 6.1 (1) [/U][/COLOR]
1981-82 NBA 5.7 (2)
1982-83 NBA 5.6 (5)
[COLOR="green"][U]1983-84 NBA 5.6 (1) [/U][/COLOR]
1984-85 NBA 5.2 (2)
[COLOR="green"][U]1985-86 NBA 6.2 (1) [/U][/COLOR]
1986-87 NBA 4.8 (6)
Career NBA 59.0 (25[/QUOTE]
Yet another foreigner who never watched 80's ball:facepalm
[QUOTE=eliteballer]Yet another foreigner who never watched 80's ball:facepalm[/QUOTE]
:no:
[B]Bird Was Better Defensively. Fact![/B]
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers]Chamberlain
Regular Season - 30 PPG
Postseason - 22.5 PPG
His PPG dropped EVERY YEAR in the postseason.[/QUOTE]
Hmmm...he absolutely SHELLED his OPPOSING centers in the vast majority of his 29 playoff series. He outrebounded them ALL (and by generally by HUGE margins...as well as ELEVATING his rebounding.)
Scoring? Yep. Wilt gets ripped for "only" averaging 34 ppg, on .468 shooting, against Russell in the '62 ECF's (all while taking a cast of clowns to a game seven, two point loss), because it came in his 50 ppg season. But wait...in his ten regular season H2H's against Russell (and a SWARMING Celtic defense which didn't have to concern themselves with the four other boobs that Wilt was shackled with)...Chamberlain could "only" average 39.7 ppg, on .471 shooting. Now, when you factor in that the regular season NBA averaged 118.8 ppg on .426 shooting, and the post-season NBA averaged 112.6 ppg on .411 shooting, ...well, it puts a much better perspective on that "decline." Oh, and incidently, Russell shot .457 against the NBA in the regular season...BUT, against Chamberlain in that seven game series? .399. Yep. .399.
Or how about a Chamberlain in the '64 post-season? In the regular season, Wilt averaged 36.9 ppg on .524 shooting, in an NBA that averaged 111 ppg on .433 shooting. However, in the POST-SEASON, the NBA averaged 105.8 ppg on .420 shooting. How about Chamberlain in that post-season? 34.7 ppg, 25.2 rpg, and on .543 shooting.
And how about this example? In the 64-65 season, after Wilt was traded to the Sixers at mid-season, he averaged 30.1 ppg, 22.3 rpg, and shot .528...in a league that averaged 110.6 ppg on .426 shooting.
He then took that 40-40 team, which had gone 34-46 the year before, thru the 48-32 Royals in the first round, and then to a game seven, one point loss against Russell's HOF-laden Celtics, that had gone 62-18, which was their best record in the Russell-era. And, in that series, Chamberlain averaged 30.1 ppg, 31.4 rpg, and shot .555 from the floor (while holding Russell to 15.6 ppg, 25.3 rpg, and .447 shooting.) Where's the DECLINE?
Of course, Chamberlain had SIX post-seasons in which he averaged more ppg than Bird's BEST post-season, too. He had FOUR of 33.2 ppg, 34.7 ppg, 35.0 ppg, and 37.0 ppg. Oh, and he had four post-season series of 37.0 ppg, 37.0 ppg, 38.6 ppg, and 38.7 ppg. And where are Bird's 50 point playoff games? Chamberlain had FOUR, THREE of which were in "must-win" games.
And how about this? In Wilt's first seven post-seasons, covering 67 games (35 of which came against Russell) he AVERAGED 30.4 ppg, 27.0 rpg, 4.5 apg, and shot .515. Find me ONE post-season game in which Bird accomplished that feat.
Shooting? In Wilt's SIX Finals, he shot .517, .525, .534, .560, .600, and a seven game series of .625. Bird? In his FIVE Finals, and in league's that shot .485 on average (Wilt's shot about .440 on average BTW), Bird shot .488, .484, .455, .450, and a horrible .419.
Rebounding in the post-season? Chamberlain's WORST post-season, of 20.2 rpg, blows away Bird's BEST post-season of 14.0 rpg.
Defense? Chamberlain was reducing Kareem to just awful FG%'s, and probably blocked more shots in one post-season, than Bird did in his post-season career. Wilt was arguably the second greatest defensive center in NBA HISTORY.
Yep. Wilt sure "declined" didn't he?
[QUOTE=Round Mound][B][COLOR="darkgreen"]Bird [/COLOR]was A [COLOR="DarkGreen"][U]WAY[/U] [U]BETTER DEFENDER[/U][/COLOR] Than Magic Was[/B]
[B][U]Defensive Rating [/U]
1979-80 NBA 98.2 (6)
1980-81 NBA 98.6 (10)
1981-82 NBA 99.4 (6)
[U][COLOR="Green"]1983-84 NBA 100.8 (2)[/COLOR][/U]
1984-85 NBA 102.8 (9)
1985-86 NBA 99.4 (4)
Career NBA 101.4 (61)
[B][U]NBA & ABA Yearly Playoff Leaders and Records for Defensive Rating[/U][/B]
2012 NBA Josh Smith 93.20 ATL
2011 NBA Dwight Howard 95.73 ORL
2010 NBA Dwight Howard 92.98 ORL
2009 NBA Dwight Howard 98.35 ORL
2008 NBA Tim Duncan 98.51 SAS
2007 NBA Jason Kidd 94.63 NJN
2006 NBA Alonzo Mourning 95.13 MIA
2005 NBA Ben Wallace 93.48 DET
2004 NBA Ben Wallace 83.91 DET
2003 NBA Ben Wallace 90.51 DET
2002 NBA Ben Wallace 86.41 DET
2001 NBA David Robinson* 92.42 SAS
2000 NBA David Robinson* 84.01 SAS
1999 NBA David Robinson* 87.33 SAS
1998 NBA David Robinson* 93.42 SAS
1997 NBA Alonzo Mourning 94.64 MIA
1996 NBA Scottie Pippen* 96.07 CHI
1995 NBA David Robinson* 97.53 SAS
1994 NBA Patrick Ewing* 94.34 NYK
1993 NBA Hakeem Olajuwon* 96.56 HOU
1992 NBA Dennis Rodman* 99.35 DET
1991 NBA Scottie Pippen* 99.52 CHI
1990 NBA Bill Laimbeer 96.32 DET
1989 NBA Dennis Rodman* 99.38 DET
1988 NBA Bill Laimbeer 99.51 DET
1987 NBA Hakeem Olajuwon* 102.24 HOU
1986 NBA Bill Walton* 100.62 BOS
1985 NBA Ralph Sampson* 97.16 HOU
1984 NBA Buck Williams 99.41 NJN
1983 NBA Moses Malone* 95.76 PHI
[COLOR="green"][U]1982 NBA Larry Bird* 94.21 BOS[/U][/COLOR]
1981 NBA Truck Robinson 94.51 PHO
[U][COLOR="green"]1980 NBA Larry Bird* 95.93 BOS[/COLOR][/U]
[U]Defensive Win Shares[/U]
[COLOR="green"]1979-80 NBA 5.6 (1) [/COLOR]
[COLOR="green"][U]1980-81 NBA 6.1 (1) [/U][/COLOR]
1981-82 NBA 5.7 (2)
1982-83 NBA 5.6 (5)
[COLOR="green"][U]1983-84 NBA 5.6 (1) [/U][/COLOR]
1984-85 NBA 5.2 (2)
[COLOR="green"][U]1985-86 NBA 6.2 (1) [/U][/COLOR]
1986-87 NBA 4.8 (6)
Career NBA 59.0 (25)[/B][/QUOTE]
Great post dude.
Larry Bird was a great defender in comparison to that era. People dont want to give him respect because he wouldn't hound people and he wasn't laterally quick. Guy could read the plays before they happened and this led to turnovers. His feet weren't quick, but he may have had faster hands than anyone in NBA History. Larry Bird = great defensive player. Magic was terrible on that end of the court.
Hopefully StateofMind12 reads that post and realizes that Magic was by far inferior.
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers]Chamberlain
Regular Season - 30 PPG
Postseason - 22.5 PPG
His PPG dropped EVERY YEAR in the postseason.[/QUOTE]
Let's compare shall we?
[QUOTE]Ok, here are the known numbers in Wilt's "must-win" playoff games (elimination games), and clinching game performances (either deciding winning or losing games), of BOTH Chamberlain, and his starting opposing centers in those games.
1. Game three of a best-of-three series in the first round of the 59-60 playoffs against Syracuse, a 132-112 win. Wilt with 53 points, on 24-42 shooting, with 22 rebounds. His opposing center, Red Kerr, who was a multiple all-star in his career, had 7 points.
2. Game five of the 59-60 ECF's against Boston, a 128-107 win. Chamberlain had 50 points, on 22-42 shooting, with 35 rebounds. His opposing center, Russell, had 22 points and 27 rebounds.
3. Game six of the 59-60 ECF's against Boston, in a 119-117 loss. Wilt had a 26-24 game, on 8-18 shooting, while Russell had a 25-25 game, and on 11-26 shooting.
4. Game three of a best-of-five series in the first round of the 60-61 playoffs , and against Syracuse, in a 106-103 loss. Chamberlain with 33 points, while his opposing center, the 7-3 Swede Halbrook, scored 6 points.
5. Game five of a best-of-five series in the first round of the 61-62 playoffs, against Syracuse, in a 121-104 win. Chamberlain had 56 points, on 22-48 shooting, with 35 rebounds. Kerr had 20 points in the loss.
6. Game six of the 61-62 ECF's, and against Boston, in a 109-99 win. Wilt with 32 points and 21 rebounds. Russell had 19 points and 22 rebounds in the loss.
7. Game seven of the 61-62 ECF's, against Boston, in a 109-107 loss. Wilt with 22 points, on 7-15 shooting, with 21 rebounds. Russell had 19 points, on 7-14 shooting, with 22 rebounds in the win.
8. Game seven of the 63-64 WCF's, and against St. Louis, in a 105-95 win. Wilt with 39 points, 26 rebounds, and 10 blocks. His opposing center, Zelmo Beaty, who would go on to become a multiple all-star, had 10 points in the loss.
9. Game five of the 63-64 Finals, and against Boston, in a 105-99 loss. Chamberlain with 30 points and 27 rebounds, on 12-28 shooting. Russell had 14 points and 26 points, on 5-11 shooting in the win.
10. Game four of a best-of-five series in the 64-65 first round of the playoffs against Cincinnati, a 119-112 win. Chamberlain with 38 points. His opposing center, multiple all-star (and HOFer) Wayne Embry had 7 points in the loss.
11. Game six of the 64-65 ECF's, against Boston, a 112-106 win. Chamberlain with a 30-26 game, on 13-23 shooting. Russell with a 22-21 game, on 8-19 shooting, in the loss.
12. Game seven of the 64-65 ECF's, and against Boston, a 110-109 loss. Wilt with 30 points, on 12-15 shooting, with 32 rebounds. Russell had 15 points, on 7-16 shooting, with 29 rebounds in the win.
13. Game five of a best-of-seven series, in the 65-66 ECF's, and against Boston, in a 120-112 loss. Wilt had 46 points, on 19-34 shooting, with 34 rebounds. Russell had 18 points and 31 rebounds in the win.
14. Game four of a best-of-five series, in the first round of the 66-67 playoffs, and against Cincinnati, a 112-94 win. Wilt with 18 points, on 7-14 shooting, with 27 rebounds and 9 assists. His opposing center, Connie Dierking, had 8 points, on 4-14 shooting, with 4 rebounds in the loss.
15. Game five of the 66-67 ECF's, and against Boston, in a 140-116 win. Chamberlain with 29 points, on 10-16 shooting, with 36 rebounds, 13 assists, and 7 blocks. Russell had 4 points, on 2-5 shooting, with 21 rebounds, and 7 assists in the loss.
16. Game six of the 66-67 Finals, and against San Francisco, in a 125-122 win. Chamberlain with 24 points, on 8-13 shooting, with 23 rebounds. His oppsoing center, HOFer Nate Thurmond, had 12 points, on 4-13 shooting, with 22 rebounds in the loss.
17. Game six of the first round of the 67-68 playoffs, against NY, in a 113-97 win. Wilt had 25 points, and 27 rebounds. His opposing center, HOFer Walt Bellamy, had 19 points in the loss.
18. Game seven of the 67-68 ECF's, against Boston, in a 100-96 loss. Wilt with 14 points, on 4-9 shooting, with 34 rebounds. Russell had 12 points and 26 rebounds, on 4-6 shooting, in the win.
19. Game six of the first round of the 68-69 playoffs, against San Francisco, in a 118-78 win. Wilt with 11 points on 5/9 FG, 25 rebounds and 1 assist. Thurmond had 8 points in the loss.
20. Game four of the 68-69 WCF's, against Atlanta, in a 133-114 sweeping win. Chamberlain with 16 points on 5/11 FG, 29 rebounds and 10 blocks. His opposing center, Zelmo Beaty had 30 points in the loss.
21. Game seven of the 68-69 Finals, against Boston, in a 108-106 loss. Chamberlain had 18 points, on 7-8 shooting, with 27 rebounds. Russell had 6 points, on 2-7 shooting, with 21 rebounds in the win.
22. Game five of a best-of-seven series (the Lakers were down 3-1 going into the game) in the first round of the 69-70 playoffs, and against Phoenix, a 138-121 win. Wilt with 36 points on 12/20 FG 14 rebounds and 3 assists. His opposing center, Neal Walk, had 18 points in the loss.
23. Game six of the first round of the 69-70 playoffs, against Phoenix, in a 104-93 win. Wilt with 12 points on 4/11 FG, 26 rebounds, 11 assists and 12 blocks (unofficial quad). Jim Fox started that game for Phoenix, and had 13 points in the loss.
24. Game seven of the first round of the 69-70 playoffs, against Phoenix, and in a 129-94 win, which capped a 4-3 series win after falling behind 3-1 in the series. Wilt with 30 points on 11/18 FG, 27 rebounds, 6 assists and 11 blocks. Fox had 7 points in the loss.
25. Game four of the 69-70 WCF's, against Atlanta, in a 133-114 sweeping win. Wilt with 11 points on 5/10 FG, 21 rebounds and 10 blocks. Bellamy had 19 points in the loss.
26. Game six of the 69-70 Finals, against NY, in a 135-113 win. Wilt with 45 points, on 20-27 shooting, with 27 rebounds. Nate Bowman had 18 points, on 9-15 shooting, with 8 rebounds in the loss.
27. Game seven of the 69-70 Finals, against NY, in a 113-99 loss. Wilt with 21 points, on 10-16 shooting, with 24 rebounds. HOFer Willis Reed had 4 points, on 2-5 shooting, with 3 rebounds in the win.
28. Game seven of the first round of the 70-71 playoffs, against Chicago, in a 109-98 win. Wilt with 25 points on 7/12 FG,18 rebounds and 9 assists. 7-0 Tom Boerwinkle had 4 points for the Bulls in the loss.
29. Game five of the 70-71 WCF's, against Milwaukee, in a 116-94 loss. Wilt had 23 points, on 10-21 shooting, with 12 rebounds, 6 blocks (5 of them on Alcindor/Kareem.) Kareem had 20 points, on 7-23 shooting, with 15 rebounds, and 3 blocks in the win. Incidently, Wilt received a standing ovation when he left the game late...and the game was played in Milwaukee.
30. Game four of the 71-72 first round of the playoffs, against Chicago, in a 108-97 sweeping win. Wilt had 8 points on 4/6, 31 rebounds and 8 assists. Clifford Ray had 20 points in the loss.
31. Game six of the 71-72 WCF's, against Milwaukee, in a 104-100 win. Chamberlain with 20 points, on 8-12 shooting, with 24 rebounds, and 9 blocks (six against Kareem.) Kareem had 37 points, on 16-37 shooting, with 25 rebounds in the loss.
32. Game five of the 71-72 Finals, against NY, in a 114-100 win. Chamberlain with 24 points, on 10-14 shooting, with 29 rebounds, and 9 blocks. HOFer Jerry Lucas had 14 points, on 5-14 shooting, with 9 rebounds in the loss.
33. Game seven of the first round of the 72-73 playoffs, against Chicago, in a 95-92 win. Wilt with 21 points on 10/17 FG, 28 rebounds, 4 asissts and 8 blocks. His opposing center, Clifford Ray, had 4 points.
The article about this series sad that Wilt blocked Chicago from playoffs after blocking 49 shots in 7 games.
34. Game five of the 72-73 WCF's, and against Golden St., in a 128-118 win. Wilt with 5 points on 2/2 FG, 22 rebounds, 7 assists. Thurmond had 9 points on 2/9 FG, 18 or 15 rebounds and 5 assists in 32 minutes in the loss.
35. Game five of the 72-73 Finals, against NY, in a 102-93 loss. Wilt with 23 points, on 9-16 shooting, with 21 rebounds. Willis Reed had 18 points, on 9-16 shooting, with 12 rebounds.
That was it. 35 "must-win" elimination and/or clinching post-season games.
[/QUOTE]
continued...
With this resume...
[QUOTE]How about this from Colts18:
Quote:
Just look at Bird's long list of playoff failures while Dirk improves his play in the postseason:
1980- Averaged a .511 TS% in the postseason. In game 5 vs. the Sixers, he shot poorly, 5-19 with just 12 points, as the Celtics lost the game. His man (Dr. J) averaged 25 PPG in this series. His team loses in 5 games despite having HCA and winning 61 games. Had a 18.3 PER in the postseason
1981- Has a .532 TS% in the postseason. He had a bad finals where he averaged just 15 PPG on .419 shooting and .460 TS%.
1982- PPG average dropped from 22.9 PPG to 17.8 PPG. He has an embarrassing .474 TS% in the playoffs. He averaged a pedestrian 18.3 PPG against the Sixers. Averages 17 PPG in the final 2 games of the series. The Celtics lose again with HCA. The Celtics won 63 games and had the #1 SRS in the league. Has a 17.9 PER in the postseason.
1983- The Celtics get swept by the Bucks. The Celtics win 56 games and had the #2 SRS in the league and lose again with HCA. Bird plays awful again. .478 TS%. His PPG average drops 2 PPG in the playoffs. Bird missed a game in the series but that game happened to be the closest one (Celtics lose by 4). In the 3 other games, the Celtics lose by 14.3 PPG with Bird on the court.
1984- Great playoffs. Averaged 27-14-4 in the Finals and had a .607 TS% in the playoffs. First great playoff of his career. Celtics win the title over the Lakers.
1985- Celtics make the finals, but Bird's numbers drop in the playoffs. His PPG drops by 2.8 PPG, Reb by 1.2 Reb, and AST by 0.7 AST. Had an average .536 TS% in the postseason. Bird plays even worse in the finals. His PPG dropped 4.9 PPG, his Reb 1.7 Reb, and AST by 1.6 AST in the finals compared to his regular season average. His Finals TS% is just .527. Not only that, but Celtics finish with 63 wins and lose once again with HCA a constant theme in Bird's career. This is the first time in Celtics history they lost in the finals with HCA.
1986- Great year. His best year ever. Wins the title. .615 TS% in the postseason and amazing finals.
1987- I think this is his most admirable playoffs up until the finals. The Celtics were quite banged up this year. Averaged 27-10-7 in the postseason with .577 TS%. Though his numbers in the finals dropped off once again. His PPG was 3.9 PPG down from the regular season, AST down by 2.1 AST and his TS% was just .534. In game 6, Bird scored just 16 points on 6-16 (.375) shooting. In the final 3 games of this series, Bird averaged just 20 PPG on .377 shooting and .492 TS% with 3.7 TOV. This is the first time Bird has played without HCA in the playoffs and his team loses.
1988- Bird's PPG drops by 5.4 PPG, Reb by 0.5 Reb. Bird shoots an awful 40-114 (.351) against the Pistons. Has a mediocre .538 TS% and 20.2 PER in the playoffs. The Celtics had HCA and the #1 SRS in the league and you probably guessed what happened next, Larry Bird loses with HCA once again.
1989- Injured doesn't play in the postseason.
1990- Bird shoots .539 TS% and has 3.6 TOV as the Celtics once again you guessed it, lose with HCA.
1991- In the first round, his team needs to go 5 vs. the 41 win Pacers. His PPG drop by 2.3 PPG and his Rebounds and Assists also drop quite a bit. Has a .490 TS% 15.8 PER in the playoffs. Against the Pistons Bird averages 13.4 PPG on .446 TS%. His 56 win team played with you guessed it HCA and loses with it.
1992- Doesn't play in the first round as the Celtics sweep the Pacers. In round 2, his team goes 7 against the Cavs, but Bird plays in 4 games and his team was 1-3 in those games. Averages a pathetic 11.3 PPG and 4.5 Reb which are 8.4 PPG and 5.2 Reb down from his regular season average. He has a .514 TS% and 16.4 PER in the postseason.
So out of 12 years, you get 9 years under .540 TS%, 5 under .520 TS%, and 3 under .500 TS%. From 80-83, he had a 19.9 playoff PER. In that span, Johnny Moore, Franklin Edwards, Gus Williams, and Bob Lanier all had better playoff PER and WS/48. Teammates Parish, McHale, Tiny Archibald, and Cedric Maxwell had better TS% in that span. From 88-92, he had a 18.8 PER which is 25th among players with 10 playoff games played. Players who had better playoff PER's in that span include Fat Lever, Terry Cummings, Roy Tarpley, Cedric Ceballos, and Sarunas Marciulionis. His teammates Reggie Lewis and Kevin McHale had better playoff PER's in that span.
With Bird you get a nice 4 year run that had 4 straight finals appearances but outside of that you get a 4 year span of .505 TS% (80-83) and a .525 TS% span (88-92). In 12 years, you get 7 losses with HCA. Basically out of Bird's 13 year career, you have 1 injury season and 3 non-descript postseasons at the end of his plus some playoff disappointments early in his career.
Bird played in an NBA that shot about .485 in his CAREER. Yet, in the post-season, he only shot .472. Which is bad enough, BUT, wait...it gets worse. He shot a CAREER .455 in his five FINALS. In fact, he shot UNDER .399 in his 31 Finals games as often as he shot over .499...ELEVEN times (including TWO games of under .299!) His HIGH Finals series was only .488, and his LOW was .419.
And how did the great "Game Seven" Bird fare in his lone game seven FINALS game? 6-18...or 33%.
Furthermore, in his five Finals, he was only the best player in TWO of them, and in fact, lost out to a TEAMMATE in the '81 Finals for the FMVP (Cedric Maxwell.) In fact, Bird wasn't even the SECOND best player on the floor in TWO more ('85 and '87 Finals.)
[/QUOTE]
Continued...
And this...
[QUOTE]The idiotic Bill Simmons claims that Wilt "shrunk" in the post-season, particularly in BIG games.
Had he actually done any real research into Wilt's post-season career, he would have found that Wilt averaged 27.0 ppg in his 35 "must-win" and/or clinching games. Meanwhile, his starting opposing centers averaged 14.5 ppg in those 35 games. He also outscored his opposing starting center in 29 of those 35 games, including a 19-0 edge in his first 19 games of those 35. Furthermore, in his 13 games which came in his "scoring" seasons (from 59-60 thru 65-66), Chamberlain averaged 37.3 ppg in those "do-or-die" or clinching games. And there were MANY games in which he just CRUSHED his opposing centers in those games (e.g. he outscored Kerr in one them, 53-7.)
Wilt had THREE of his four 50+ point post-season games, in these "elimination games", including two in "at the limit" games, and another against Russell in a "must-win" game. He also had games of 46-34 and 45-27 (and only 4 months removed from major knee surgery) in these types of games. In addition he had games of 39 and 38 in clinching wins.
In the known 19 games in which we have both Wilt's, and his starting opposing center's rebounding numbers, Chamberlain outrebounded them in 15 of them, and by an average margin of 26.1 rpg to 18.9 rpg. And, had we had all 35 of the totals, it would have been by a considerably larger margin. A conservative estimate would put Wilt with at least a 30-5 overall edge in those 35 games. He also had games, even against the likes of Russell, and in "must-win" situations, where he just MURDERED his opposing centers (e.g. he had one clinching game, against Russell, in which he outrebounded him by a 36-21 margin.)
And finally, in the known FG% games in which we have, Chamberlain not only shot an eye-popping .582 in those "do-or-die" games, but he held his opposing centers to a combined .413 FG%. BTW, he played against Kareem in two "clinching" games, and held Abdul-Jabbar to a combined .383 shooting in those two games, while Chamberlain shot 18-33 (.545.)
The bottom line, in the known games of the 35 that Wilt played in that involved a "must-win" or clincher, Wilt averaged 27 ppg, 26.1 rpg, and shot .582 (and the 27 ppg figure was known for all 35 of those games.)
And once again, Chamberlain played in 11 games which went to the series limit (nine game seven's, one game five of a best-of-five series, and one game three of a best-of-three series), and all he did was average 29.9 ppg (outscoring his opposing center by a 29.9 ppg to 9.8 ppg margin in the process), with 26.7 rpg, and on .581 shooting. Or he was an eye-lash away from averaging a 30-27 game, and on nearly .600 shooting, in those 11 "at the limit" games.
Oh, and BTW, Chamberlain's TEAMs went 24-11 in those 35 games, too.
That was the same player that Simmons basically labeled a "loser", and a "choker", and who "shrunk" in his BIG games.
[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=jlauber]With this resume...
Continued...[/QUOTE]
jlauber:
Though I respect all the data and info you continually come up with, I must say that list of Bird's playoff exploits you posted comes across as cherry-picked, and more than a bit biased in terms of its language and tone. There's simply too much of his playoff success that is ignored or passed over for the sake of argument, while other excerpts strike me as being flat-out wrong.
For starters, I'll point to '81 Finals, where your post stated that Bird played poorly, which simply isn't accurate. Yes, he did shoot poorly, but he also did so many other things during that series to help his team win, while coming through at key moments -- especially down the stretch -- yet there's no mention of this. Why?
You could even argue that he should've been awarded Finals MVP that year.