Larry Bird vs Magic Johnson - Who was the better player All Time?

[QUOTE=K Xerxes]I wonder if the Showtime dynamic would have been looked at in a different light historically had Kareem won the finals MVP in 1980.[/QUOTE]

I don't see why it would. Kareem should have won it anyway, so I don't see why it would have been looked at in a different light. If Kareem was actually physically present, then he would have won it. But they didn't want to give it to a player who wasn't actually there to accept the award, and Magic was there and had the all-time great deciding game, so...

[QUOTE=La Frescobaldi]The thing is, you broke all these skills out and gave them to different guys. Bird had ALL of them.

There's lots of ways you could do that with Magic's skillset. Rondo has the assists and court vision. CP3 has the driving.
I mean what's the point of that?
None of those guys were as good as Bird, and none of these guys are as good as Magic.

It's not right to say one is "clearly" better than the other. There's a lot more to it than that.
But if that's really what you think you should make a better effort than to just splinter Larry Bird and dole out the pieces to a bunch of other guys.[/QUOTE]

rick barry had a stretch where he was about as good a player as bird

the year rb won nba title his numbers compare favorably to any peak larry bird year.....and he lead team to ring

larry was consistently great all around player, while rick was known more for high volume scoring...but look at his stats for 74-77

now , name a player who in any way was comparable to magic

[QUOTE=Pointguard]Hey homeslice, I couldn't find that thread again but I find it really funny we were in the same hood and both played the same instrument![/QUOTE]

Yeah, that is funny. I had forgotten you played guitar too, but now that you mention it, I think I remember you saying it before.

[QUOTE]Max, was making clutch shots that year. The thing that makes it foggy was that Max was very timely with his defensive plays as well. Bird was missing key shots as well. I do think it was very close. Hard call because Bird does so many things.[/QUOTE]

It's been a while since I've seen the series so I'd like to re-watch it, but I remember Bird having a big closeout game including a 3 that was a real dagger. It's not hard to see why Maxwell got it because Bird didn't have a great series by his own standards while Maxwell did, but as you said, Bird did so many things.

[QUOTE]The look and feel was different once Magic arrived. Kareem was still great for sure. While Kareem did beast for LA for four years prior, good teams never had a problem with them. LA would usually get beat 4 to 1 in playoff series while never getting too deep into the playoffs. Wilkes and Kareem both looked sharper and played in a more alert manner once Magic arrived. The LA team looked like Washington (beginning of this year) in the 1970's vs a Golden State team now, after Magic arrived. While Kareem was the better individual player, he didn't mean more to the team. Kareem himself was transformed and now had a bigger impact than he did in one of his best years three years prior. Magic knew how to make Kareem key in winning ways. It was not something you can really say Kareem knew how to do himself. Wilkes was the same.[/QUOTE]

I don't think Kareem's impact was ever greater than it was in 1977. The "bad team" thing may come off as an excuse used too frequently, but I think in this particular year, it's undeniable. He had a team compromised of role players and led them to the best record in the league, and part of the reason they did this was Kareem had a number of huge 4th quarters throughout the season, and you can see that despite having the best record, several teams had bigger point differentials.

But in those playoffs, Kareem lost some of the few good players he had, including Kermit Washington, the one guy who gave him some help inside with rebounding and physicality, as well as Lucius Allen who was really the only dangerous guard on the team. If you watch that Blazer series, you'll see Kareem going up against the frontline of Walton and Lucas pretty much by himself with Washington out, and you'll see the Lakers struggling to even bring the ball up and get into their offense with Allen out.

I also think Kareem's impact was as great in '74 when he carried Milwaukee to game 7 of the finals and won game 6 with the famous sky hook.

But I will agree that Magic added a different feel since Kareem was introverted while Magic was more outspoken. And that seemed to be beneficial to chemistry as well as the on the court impact a player of Magic's caliber has.

[QUOTE]That Philly team was far better than any team Kareem faced the previous four years. Their defense was on a whole different level than those teams.
So without Magic they don't sniff a title either. It was Magic's wild card play (you really couldn't prepare for Magic because his play affected everybody on the court and he was not playing in a traditional manner). Magic always had a winning way about himself.[/QUOTE]

I'm not trying to diminish Magic's importance to the 1980 team, but Kareem himself did dominate the Sixers. Had an incredible game 5 that's unfortunately largely forgotten where he came back after spraining his ankle and had a huge 4th quarter to pull out a tight game and finish with 40/15 on 16/24 shooting, iirc and also closed out the defending champion Sonics with 38/11/6/7 in the WCF.

[QUOTE]Yeah, Bird was built around. And Magic had to squeeze himself into the team as he was really not playing a position for a minute there. A few things were very definite from his arrival tho: every Laker could depend on Magic hitting them in their sweet spots, easy baskets came in droves, they controlled the tempo, they kept coming at you, they had a winning way about them, they would pick apart your weaknesses, they were among the best in the post game and the running game, Magic would adjust to all personnel changes on both sides, he could make something out of nothing, if you lost concentration for a moment you paid for it, they really played to win 81 games (1 game sacrificed to basketball Gods), positional play was mastered, and if you turned the ball over you were dead. And Magic could make split second decisions better than anybody. The team before Magic wasn't like that.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, when Magic came to the Lakers, he was sharing ball-handling responsibilities with Norm Nixon and they didn't have quite as much of the running identity as from '82 on, this was essentially the problem between Paul Westhead and Magic until Westhead was fired early in '81-'82.

But even from the start, you're right that they now had the amazing running game to complement Kareem's unmatched low post dominance. Once the Lakers did get out and run, teams couldn't handle Magic handling the ball at 6'8" and finishing or finding Wilkes on the wing, in addition to Norm Nixon using his quickness, or hitting his pull up 15 footer. But it was a complementary thing because what set them apart from many famous fastbreak teams is that they could still beat you in a half court game. Kareem could score pretty much whenever he wanted, but he'd also run give and goes with Magic and consistently find cutters, or Magic would have the ball on the perimeter and throw a bullet pass to Wilkes cutting backdoor.

While having Magic and the fastbreak prevented them from being a stagnant and predictable team who relied too heavily on Kareem. It was the formula they used for the entire decade, though it gradually changed as Kareem declined and Worthy and Magic posted up more, though they still looked to run before eventually becoming more of a half court team once Kareem retired and the offense ran through Magic in the post a lot during his last 2 years before he retired.

I do favor Kareem the first few years when he was a 25 ppg type player also blocking 3 shots per game and Magic was sharing ball-handling responsibilities, but once Nixon was gone and Magic also added a bit of outside shot while Kareem was declining defensively, I wouldn't argue it was more Magic's team as far as impact. Though Kareem remained their first scoring option and half court option until the '87 season.

Actually, that leads me to one of the things I respect the most about Magic, which is how he handled the dynamic with Kareem. He simply waited his turn until Riley came to him and asked him to take over more after the Lakers were upset by Houston in the '86 WCF. He was ready and obviously delivered with the '87 season, but was patient, listened to what his coach said and didn't risk alienating Kareem.

magic

Magic averaged [B]21.5 points 11.2 rebs, 8.7 ast, 2.7 stl on 57% FG[/B] in the 1980 Finals as a 20 year old rookie.

He was dominant from the moment he stepped into the league.

The fact that there was a white east coast media bias and Bird gets shown more on ESPN Classic doesn't change that.

[QUOTE=eliteballer]Magic averaged [B]21.5 points 11.2 rebs, 8.7 ast, 2.7 stl on 57% FG[/B] in the 1980 Finals as a 20 year old rookie.

He was dominant from the moment he stepped into the league.

The fact that there was a white east coast media bias and Bird gets shown more on ESPN Classic doesn't change that.[/QUOTE]

[B]You Say Magic > Bird because You are a Laker Fan.

Bird Was Better Than Magic because he Actually Played Good Defense, While Also Being a Beast Scoring, Rebounding and Passing Wise.[/B]

[QUOTE=Round Mound][B]You Say Magic > Bird because You are a Laker Fan.

Bird Was Better Than Magic because he Actually Played Good Defense, While Also Being a Beast Scoring, Rebounding and Passing Wise.[/B][/QUOTE]

Only someone who never watched them play would call Bird a good defender....which you already admitted you HAVEN'T. Magic was 3 years younger and CLEARLY outplayed PEAK Bird repeatedly in the title round.

[QUOTE=eliteballer]Only someone who never watched them play would call Bird a good defender....which you already admitted you HAVEN'T. Magic was 3 years younger and CLEARLY outplayed PEAK Bird repeatedly in the title round.[/QUOTE]

[B]I Saw Both Play At The End of Their Careers (Magic Was My Favorite Player When I Started Watching and Playing B-Ball BTW) Where So For Bird It Was a Broken Larry Bird Because of the Back Problems and Injuries. That Was NOT PRIME BIRD.

Bird

Be it college or pro, whenever Magic played Bird in a championship, Magic beat him 3-1.

Even Bird admitted Magic was the greatest he had ever seen.

[QUOTE=gengiskhan]remember. a kobe'tard a full retard will always show his true colors at some point.

Kobe is the only one who is era specific.

I cannot see kobe outperforming Dominique or Clyde in '80s or '90s.
[/QUOTE]
I love how people like you call out others and follow it up with your own ridiculous statement. Kobe not outperforming Dominique or Clyde? Really? You my dear sir, are the very definition of a troll.

As for the topic at hand, I'm leaning towards choosing Bird (in his prime he was unconscious), but I can agree that Magic had a somewhat better career.

[QUOTE=get these NETS]rick barry had a stretch where he was about as good a player as bird

the year rb won nba title his numbers compare favorably to any peak larry bird year.....and he lead team to ring

larry was consistently great all around player, while rick was known more for high volume scoring...but look at his stats for 74-77

now , name a player who in any way was comparable to magic[/QUOTE]
I see what you mean about Rick Barry. Yes indeed that man was ferocious.

Comparable to Magic? In an earlier era, Oscar Robertson; in a later, Jason Kidd leading the Nets in particular, but his whole career has been one enormous highlight film

[QUOTE=havoc33]I love how people like you call out others and follow it up with your own ridiculous statement. Kobe not outperforming Dominique or Clyde? Really? You my dear sir, are the very definition of a troll. [/QUOTE]

I can back my statements of Kobe not out performing Dominique & Drexler.

Kobe may have better offensive skills set to score but there is something thats called Strength, Stamina & endurance

[B]Drexler & Dominique were considerably stronger than Kobe in all 3 departments.[/B]

Drexler lacked kobe's post up offense, he makes it up on strength, quickness & endurance.

[B]Kobe gets tired from 2nd quarter itself & when defense gets physical, I've seen him REST ON HIS KNEES from start of 2nd Quarter itself.[/B]

Many here think, a great player out performs another great player on SKILLS ALONE.

A laughable joke.

[B]When you go deep into 4th, Stength, Stamina, endurance is more helpful in gutting it out.[/B]

[B]Dominique had that. Drexler had that (Da man NEVER EVER rested on his Knees, upper extremities locked, bent forward) even in 1 min left in 4th quarter.[/B]

Unbelievable speciman of strength, stamina, conditioning & endurance!

[QUOTE=Lakers Legend#32]Be it college or pro, whenever Magic played Bird in a championship, Magic beat him 3-1.

Even Bird admitted Magic was the greatest he had ever seen.[/QUOTE]

Magic has made similar quotes about Larry so that really doesn't mean anything.

I think the difference is so small that it could go either way. I'd probably change my answer depending on how I feel that day.

[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]
It's been a while since I've seen the series so I'd like to re-watch it, but I remember Bird having a big closeout game including a 3 that was a real dagger. It's not hard to see why Maxwell got it because Bird didn't have a great series by his own standards while Maxwell did, but as you said, Bird did so many things. [/quote]
Somewhat similar to Pierce and Garnett if you ask me. Garnett affected the game in more ways but Pierce won FMVP by being in the right place at the right time and hitting clutch shots.
[quote]
I'm not trying to diminish Magic's importance to the 1980 team, but Kareem himself did dominate the Sixers. Had an incredible game 5 that's unfortunately largely forgotten where he came back after spraining his ankle and had a huge 4th quarter to pull out a tight game and finish with 40/15 on 16/24 shooting, iirc and also closed out the defending champion Sonics with 38/11/6/7 in the WCF. [/quote]

You brought up a good point about Kareem. Not only was he a prolific scorer, rebounder, defender, passer but he was also very clutch. My brother just told me that teams always try to beat them by the fourth quarter, because if the game got methodical, Kareem would win it.
[quote]
Yeah, when Magic came to the Lakers, he was sharing ball-handling responsibilities with Norm Nixon and they didn't have quite as much of the running identity as from '82 on, this was essentially the problem between Paul Westhead and Magic until Westhead was fired early in '81-'82. [/quote]
Magic's play was non-descript for like two years. Kind of like if you had Penny Hardaway on a Chris Paul team. Westhead couldn't commit to putting him at PG.
[quote]
While having Magic and the fastbreak prevented them from being a stagnant and predictable team who relied too heavily on Kareem. It was the formula they used for the entire decade, though it gradually changed as Kareem declined and Worthy and Magic posted up more, though they still looked to run before eventually becoming more of a half court team once Kareem retired and the offense ran through Magic in the post a lot during his last 2 years before he retired. [/quote]
You ever see the films of how they used Worthy on the quick post. Magic would actually try to set up Worthy before Kareem would come down. Almost like a fast break post up. Of course now, one out of every 4 teams has a post player.
[quote]
Actually, that leads me to one of the things I respect the most about Magic, which is how he handled the dynamic with Kareem. He simply waited his turn until Riley came to him and asked him to take over more after the Lakers were upset by Houston in the '86 WCF. He was ready and obviously delivered with the '87 season, but was patient, listened to what his coach said and didn't risk alienating Kareem.[/QUOTE]
When you think about how high these guys are on the GOAT list and how greatly they co-existed. Sure things were said but you could tell how they fed off of each other. Maybe the greatest complimentary duo ever in terms of making a complete team.

[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]

Actually, that leads me to one of the things I respect the most about Magic, which is how he handled the dynamic with Kareem. He simply waited his turn until Riley came to him and asked him to take over more after the Lakers were upset by Houston in the '86 WCF. He was ready and obviously delivered with the '87 season, but was patient, listened to what his coach said and didn't risk alienating Kareem.[/QUOTE]



- Magic did everything....and was more popular then Kareem....I don't think Magic viewed it as " taking his turn".....it was more about winning and doing what it took to win.

and they did win......alot!

- The Basketball landscape wasn't as....." I'm the man/leader " centered as it is today's game.

- Especially with the style that Magic/Bird played ( using thier skill to set up a teammate for a easy shot was just as valuable/exciting as getting a shot for themselves)


- and what I like about that era.....often in the eyes of the basketball world.....the better player was determined by who won in June....

not marginal stats differential or personal awards..( I.E. "Bird might have been MVP but Magic won the title" = Magic had a better season / was a better player)

- maybe it was because Bird and Magic had similar games and came into the league together and played on great teams ....( the only way to judge was by winning)


- .....and after the Jordan 90's era[B] ( " The Man"...justifiying Jordan's playoff struggles and finally winning a title.....Most fans tried to use "the man" arguements to prop up MJ's 1 - 3 titles as greater acomplishments then Magics 5 titles and Birds 3 titles.....because they didn't win FMVP's in all of them)[/B]

The way the game was played changed...it was a totally different era and style of play...even compared to the early mid 90's.

- Looking back now.....Magic was the better player....he played at higher level for a longer period of time...he won more championships as a Main / superstar player....and IMO he could do more with the basketball in hand ( wich is a primary attribute in the post season)

funny how no one cared who was the man in the 80's....just beat the other guys team.




of course I know you watched alot of hoop back then.....just stating it for the guys who never watched Bird/Magics career....man I feel sorry for them....

best bball ever!