Larry Bird vs. Magic Johnson - Complete Career Head-to-Head Stats

[QUOTE=SHAQisGOAT][B]Phila should do Bird's shotchart, I'm telling you.

If anything, imo, Bird's the GOAT overall shooter, just because he could score and bang inside, also great at post-up, doesn't mean he wasn't also an amazing shooter, that's from everywhere else and in any way (3pters too obviously).
I've watched countless of Bird's games and always seemed "easily" a 50% shooter from mid-range, playing ways and stats suggest the same more than enough.

From watching through the years, what's improved mostly over his career (regarding scoring) was his post-game and shot-selection, in his early years he settled more for long range jumpers and went inside and attacked the rim a bit less than after it, took more ill-advised 3's (of course his shooting improved and still had a pretty good shot-selection before). Always great without the ball but always managed to improve on that, just terrific to see.[/B][/QUOTE]

And yet, overall he had a less-than-average career playoff FG%, and was way below the league norms in FG% (and especially eFG%'s) in his Finals.

GOAT shooter my a$$.

GOAT choker my son.

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]And yet, overall he had a less-than-average career playoff FG%, and was way below the league norms in FG% (and especially eFG%'s) in his Finals.

GOAT shooter my a$$.

GOAT choker my son.[/QUOTE]

[B]:roll: :roll: Shit you so mad right now.

We ain't talking about Wilt here, take that to the Wilt's choking resume thread.[/B]

[QUOTE=SHAQisGOAT][B]Phila should do Bird's shotchart, I'm telling you.

If anything, imo, Bird's the GOAT overall shooter, just because he could score and bang inside, also great at post-up, doesn't mean he wasn't also an amazing shooter, that's from everywhere else and in any way (3pters too obviously).
I've watched countless of Bird's games and always seemed "easily" a 50% shooter from mid-range, playing ways and stats suggest the same more than enough.

From watching through the years, what's improved mostly over his career (regarding scoring) was his post-game and shot-selection, in his early years he settled more for long range jumpers and went inside and attacked the rim a bit less than after it, took more ill-advised 3's (of course his shooting improved and still had a pretty good shot-selection before). Always great without the ball but always managed to improve on that, just terrific to see.

What you've said about the 84 Finals is somewhat true though. Magic had and took plenty of mid-range shots, Celtics were giving him the shot since he wasn't an established reliable shooter and they had to double Kareem. And Bird was doing more damage on the inside yea, also because he was smart, that was the thing to do with Cooper on him.[/B][/QUOTE]

You're right, lol. Phila or somebody needs to do a shot chart on the 84 Finals. Magic didn't seem to miss anything jumpers while Bird missed a lot, but he did his damage inside. I'm curious in Bird percentage in that finals and in one of his seasons.

Imo, Bird in 84 was pretty awesome because how much he attacked. Him battling the boards against Kareem was amazing to watch. Basically willed the team to keep in the games. When I watched it, the Lakers were obviously the better team. They had the better 2nd and 3rd option and Kareem was right up there with Bird. They shot themselves in the foot, but Bird gave them a lot of chances for the Celtics to keep them in the game. And it's always a pleasure to watch Magic control the game. I said this before but he probably is the smartest shot taker I ever seen play. And it's amazing how he and Bird could control the pace of the game without taking a shot sometimes.

Amazing finals. One of my favorites.

/praise

Anyway, Bird in 86 was pretty unstoppable. I would imagine he wouldn't have a weakness in the shot chart. I need to watch more games of his prior to 84 tho. I stared, but didn't finish the 76ers vs Celtics series in 81. I watched a few in games of his rookie year in 80. It was amazing how skilled he was as rookie, especially off the ball and his footwork even back then.

We need a shot chart to see how good Bird was with the midrange. I know guys like Worthy and Dr. J had better FG%, but they weren't better shooters, but better finishers. Like Dr. J never develop a smooth jumper because he could just attack the basket. Bird shot a lower percentage, but he could attack the basket and shoot it in your face. Although I don't know if he is better than MJ with the midrange or not. As I said, it just seem like MJ was better imo. Bird could be better tho. Especially at his peak. We don't know the percentage tho.

Except past prime MJ in 97 and 98. He shot 49% midrange (shorten 3pt line) and 43% in 98 in the regular season. I'm curious if Bird had better numbers than that.

[QUOTE=Micku]Whenever I rewatch some of Bird tapes, I realize how good he is in terms of off the ball movement and being able to get a shot off a times. I always thought he was a bit overrated as a shooter. Like MJ seemed to be a better mid range shooter than Bird. By the 92 season, all MJ did was shoot jumpers it seems Nobody could stop it because how high he jumped and how quick he was and he constantly shot 50%. I probably need to watch more tapes of Bird tho.

It would interesting somebody would check this, but I swore I saw Magic Johnson in 84 Finals to hit more jumpers than Bird in the entire series. Magic was more open due to the Celtics letting him taking it and the Celts doubling Kareem. Bird seemed to miss the a bunch of midrange shots, but made his points inside the paint from rebounds or post. Bird seemed to fall in love with the jumper when he should've took it inside more, while Magic was more selective at it.

Even in the 87 Finals, Bird was much better at scoring the paint and it seems most of his misses were anything outside the paint. But I have rewatch it again.[/QUOTE]

I remember certain situations but I can't recall much from '84. In general Magic had the best judgement of when to shoot, thread the needle, or make the extra pass. Most of the time Magic would rather feature other players and only take a shot as the defense allowed it. Except late in the game he would push for his shot. Magic had better judgment than any player ever. His mental game to gauge where to engage, take risk, go inside, or take the open shot was pristine. Magic knew how to dish a steady diet of all things and keep his teammates happy.

Bird had more comfortable long range than Jordan. Jordan knew his limitations and rarely seemed to go for three pointers unless very hot. Bird usually did the whole gamut of scoring but as the series would get longer he would take more jumpers. Cooper was lighter in weight but would fight like crazy to deny the entry pass in the deeper post. Bird's shot wasn't unlike any other shooter's, it is subject to good defense, pressure and fatigue. Ray Allen, Reggie Miller or Dirk's shot never stayed on course through a complete playoff run either. Bird had a superior post game than they did tho. However, like Magic perhaps, he might have been en-crouching on McHale's and Parrish's ground and decided not to go there.

[QUOTE=Micku]You're right, lol. Phila or somebody needs to do a shot chart on the 84 Finals. Magic didn't seem to miss anything jumpers while Bird missed a lot, but he did his damage inside. I'm curious in Bird percentage in that finals and in one of his seasons.

Imo, Bird in 84 was pretty awesome because how much he attacked. Him battling the boards against Kareem was amazing to watch. Basically willed the team to keep in the games. When I watched it, the Lakers were obviously the better team. They had the better 2nd and 3rd option and Kareem was right up there with Bird. They shot themselves in the foot, but Bird gave them a lot of chances for the Celtics to keep them in the game. And it's always a pleasure to watch Magic control the game. I said this before but he probably is the smartest shot taker I ever seen play. And it's amazing how he and Bird could control the pace of the game without taking a shot sometimes.

Amazing finals. One of my favorites.

/praise

Anyway, Bird in 86 was pretty unstoppable. I would imagine he wouldn't have a weakness in the shot chart. I need to watch more games of his prior to 84 tho. I stared, but didn't finish the 76ers vs Celtics series in 81. I watched a few in games of his rookie year in 80. It was amazing how skilled he was as rookie, especially off the ball and his footwork even back then.

We need a shot chart to see how good Bird was with the midrange. I know guys like Worthy and Dr. J had better FG%, but they weren't better shooters, but better finishers. Like Dr. J never develop a smooth jumper because he could just attack the basket. Bird shot a lower percentage, but he could attack the basket and shoot it in your face. Although I don't know if he is better than MJ with the midrange or not. As I said, it just seem like MJ was better imo. Bird could be better tho. Especially at his peak. We don't know the percentage tho.

Except past prime MJ in 97 and 98. He shot 49% midrange (shorten 3pt line) and 43% in 98 in the regular season. I'm curious if Bird had better numbers than that.[/QUOTE]

[B]Good post.

Yea I would love to see Bird's short-chart at his peak, even asked Phila about it at some point.

From watching him, at his best, most likely he was shooting 50% from mid or very very close.. plus he posted-up, banged and scored inside, even attacked the rim scoring from close but was always more of a jump-shooter, at his best he was shooting 50+% FG and 40+ 3P (both RS and PS) and he was taking like 3 3's per game, and I doubt that he was scoring over 70% at the rim. I would say something like 50% or really really close from mid, over 50% in the paint, and 60 percentile at the rim, taking more shots from mid but not that much less inside because he kept it all-around, also over 40% from 3 while taking around 3 (that's a give though).

I most definitely think that, at both their best from there, Bird was better from mid-range than Jordan.[/B]

[QUOTE=Micku]To be fair, didn't Worthy battle a bunch of injuries? He was already injured in 91, and then more injured in the Finals. In 92 he got injured again. He was banged up after that to perform as good. But I think Magic did give him a bunch of easy shots. Especially in the fastbreak.[/QUOTE]
Yeah he was banged up some but in '92 he played more minutes per game than he ever did and shot as much as he did the year before, rebounded and block shots as good or better than the year before (rebounding and blocking shots are the best indicators of health). So when he played in '92 he was himself. After that he seemingly never got it back together.

Scott wasn't injured and was still in his prime.

[QUOTE=Micku]
We need a shot chart to see how good Bird was with the midrange. I know guys like Worthy and Dr. J had better FG%, but they weren't better shooters, but better finishers. Like Dr. J never develop a smooth jumper because he could just attack the basket. Bird shot a lower percentage, but he could attack the basket and shoot it in your face. Although I don't know if he is better than MJ with the midrange or not. As I said, it just seem like MJ was better imo. Bird could be better tho. Especially at his peak. We don't know the percentage tho.

Except past prime MJ in 97 and 98. He shot 49% midrange (shorten 3pt line) and 43% in 98 in the regular season. I'm curious if Bird had better numbers than that.[/QUOTE]

Bird was a better midrange shooter than Dr. J and Worthy without question. The both of them had great first steps and were rarely contested but still missed more than Bird did. Before the second threepeat, I felt Bird was a better midrange shooter than MJ except in fourth quarters when MJ seemed never to miss if he was playing your team. In the last three peat Jordan's midrange was one of the best ever. It seemed more dependable than Shaq's deep post game if it was a close game.

[QUOTE=Pointguard]I remember certain situations but I can't recall much from '84. In general Magic had the best judgement of when to shoot, thread the needle, or make the extra pass. Most of the time Magic would rather feature other players and only take a shot as the defense allowed it. Except late in the game he would push for his shot. Magic had better judgment than any player ever. His mental game to gauge where to engage, take risk, go inside, or take the open shot was pristine. Magic knew how to dish a steady diet of all things and keep his teammates happy.

Bird had more comfortable long range than Jordan. Jordan knew his limitations and rarely seemed to go for three pointers unless very hot. Bird usually did the whole gamut of scoring but as the series would get longer he would take more jumpers. Cooper was lighter in weight but would fight like crazy to deny the entry pass in the deeper post. Bird's shot wasn't unlike any other shooter's, it is subject to good defense, pressure and fatigue. Ray Allen, Reggie Miller or Dirk's shot never stayed on course through a complete playoff run either. Bird had a superior post game than they did tho. However, like Magic perhaps, he might have been en-crouching on McHale's and Parrish's ground and decided not to go there.[/QUOTE]

Yeah. I agree with you with Magic. Whenever I watched him, I was amazed in how much control he would have in the game. Like when to pass, when to drive, when to shoot (one of the best shot selection player I've seen).

And I would love to see a shot chart with peak Bird. MJ did seem to know his limits, and perfected his skills with his shot selection. When I first saw a few tapes of his play in the early 90s, I was amazed at how many jumpers he would take because I always thought of him as driver first. In 92 it seemed almost all of his shots were mid range jumpers and he shot 50%.

And it's interesting that you said that MJ secondpeat midrange was one of the best ever, because I thought he was a bit better during the first threepeat. But that's just the eye test, so I might be wrong at it.

From what I watched of Bird, he had more range definitely. And in 86 he was threat everywhere on the floor and had great offensive versatility. Catch and shoot, post up, and could drive. But all of this talk makes me want a shot chart even more to compare. I'm interested to see how good was Bird as a finisher as well. Like SHAQisGOAT said, I would say the percentage would be about 50% from the paint and 60% of the rim. I don't know about midrange. Could be close to or around 50% there too at his peak.

[QUOTE=Micku]
And I would love to see a shot chart with peak Bird. MJ did seem to know his limits, and perfected his skills with his shot selection. When I first saw a few tapes of his play in the early 90s, I was amazed at how many jumpers he would take because I always thought of him as driver first. In 92 it seemed almost all of his shots were mid range jumpers and he shot 50%.

And it's interesting that you said that MJ secondpeat midrange was one of the best ever, because I thought he was a bit better during the first threepeat. But that's just the eye test, so I might be wrong at it.

From what I watched of Bird, he had more range definitely. And in 86 he was threat everywhere on the floor and had great offensive versatility. Catch and shoot, post up, and could drive. But all of this talk makes me want a shot chart even more to compare. I'm interested to see how good was Bird as a finisher as well. Like SHAQisGOAT said, I would say the percentage would be about 50% from the paint and 60% of the rim. I don't know about midrange. Could be close to or around 50% there too at his peak.[/QUOTE]

Well the Knicks and Detroit were bombing on Jordan when he drove so while he did buff up, he also knew he couldn't keep going down the middle. So in '92 he did take a lot of jumpers. But he was driving like crazy the first couple of years. I never seen a player since do as many reverse lay ups as Jordan did the first three or four years. People don't know the energy it takes to drive all year long (AI was the only guy like Jordan, and Derrick Rose is the only one in this generation to exhibit something close to them). Jordan wasn't super comfortable with jumpers during the first ring. But he came back with confidence the second year but still drove a lot in pressure situations. By 92 he was taking a lot of jumpers. But Jordan was super efficient for the second threepeat and took the path of least resistance.

[QUOTE=Pointguard]Well the Knicks and Detroit were bombing on Jordan when he drove so while he did buff up, he also knew he couldn't keep going down the middle. So in '92 he did take a lot of jumpers. But he was driving like crazy the first couple of years. I never seen a player since do as many reverse lay ups as Jordan did the first three or four years. People don't know the energy it takes to drive all year long (AI was the only guy like Jordan, and Derrick Rose is the only one in this generation to exhibit something close to them). Jordan wasn't super comfortable with jumpers during the first ring. But he came back with confidence the second year but still drove a lot in pressure situations. By 92 he was taking a lot of jumpers. But Jordan was super efficient for the second threepeat and took the path of least resistance.[/QUOTE]
It's a myth that MJ wasn't a good shooter early on. Sure, he hadn't perfected his fadeaway, but his midrange game was already sublime by the 89-90 season. In his first threepeat you basically have MJ at the total peak of his powers. He was great during the second threepeat as well, but you could see that he had lost some explosiveness, and his fadeaway jumper was a natural counter to that. But he wasn't as effective anymore, which is clearly evident if you compare his playoffs stats from 91-93 to 96-98. The first threepeat MJ edges second threepeat MJ in every possible way.

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]I have said it before, but I will reiterate it now, you simply can't look at Magic's scoring, and hold it against him. He was certainly capable of 30+ point games anytime he wanted them. Again, he had the TWO highest scoring games in the Bird-Magic H2H.

How about this: You already are aware of Magic, in his ROOKIE season, putting up that incredible clinching game six in the Finals (42 pts, 15 rebs, 7 ast, 14-23 from the floor, and 14-14 from the line.) Again, in his ROOKIE season. In his LAST season, in 90-91, and in theseries clinching first round game against Hakeem's Rockets, he hung a 38 point, 6 reb, 7 ast, 14-20 FG/FGA, 9-9 FT/FTA game.

It was EVERYTHING that Magic brought to the table that set him apart. And I mean everything. He made his teammates much more efficient. He kept them happy. He made players like Byron Scott into 20 ppg scorers. Hell, he took Michael Cooper, and made him into one of the best three point shooters of his era. And KAJ was certainly a huge beneficiary. He had staggering FG%'s in the 80's. And, then look at Magic's teammates after he retired.

He could dominate games even without scoring in double figures. He forced the pace in his career. He made teammates better. He was super clutch. He was highly efficient. His IMPACT went FAR beyond just scoring. But again, he could have scored MUCH more in his career, had he been tasked to do so.[/QUOTE]To say that Magic was super clutch is certainly stretching it, since his failures come Playoff time in the mid 80s are pretty well documented. And I have a very hard time believing that Magic could score 30 points at will. He simply didn't have that type of scoring capacity on a consistent basis. Bird was the better player of the two until 86-87 when you could say that Magic finally eclipsed him.

[QUOTE=navy]Why do people say Bird was better than Magic?[/QUOTE]

Because they saw them both play.

great thread

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]I have said it before, but I will reiterate it now, you simply can't look at Magic's scoring, and hold it against him. He was certainly capable of 30+ point games anytime he wanted them. Again, he had the TWO highest scoring games in the Bird-Magic H2H.

How about this: You already are aware of Magic, in his ROOKIE season, putting up that incredible clinching game six in the Finals (42 pts, 15 rebs, 7 ast, 14-23 from the floor, and 14-14 from the line.) Again, in his ROOKIE season. In his LAST season, in 90-91, and in theseries clinching first round game against Hakeem's Rockets, he hung a 38 point, 6 reb, 7 ast, 14-20 FG/FGA, 9-9 FT/FTA game.

It was EVERYTHING that Magic brought to the table that set him apart. And I mean everything. He made his teammates much more efficient. He kept them happy. He made players like Byron Scott into 20 ppg scorers. Hell, he took Michael Cooper, and made him into one of the best three point shooters of his era. And KAJ was certainly a huge beneficiary. He had staggering FG%'s in the 80's. And, then look at Magic's teammates after he retired.

[B]He could dominate games even without scoring in double figures.[/B] He forced the pace in his career. He made teammates better. He was super clutch. He was highly efficient. His IMPACT went FAR beyond just scoring. But again, he could have scored MUCH more in his career, had he been tasked to do so.[/QUOTE]
Solid post as usual.

Magic was the best at dominating a game without scoring. Magic could have scored at least 8 more points per game on fast breaks alone but he felt the need to get others involved unlike any other player. And another 4 ppg if he didn't feature other players. Magic could back anybody down but he deferred to Kareem. Magic was either too big or too quick for every body.

Jason Kidd was another that could dominate without stats and he was phenomenal with it. Kidd took a last place team 26 wins, replaced the most prolific point guard (24ppg and 8 assist) in the league, and took that exact same team to the finals two years in a row. Kidd only averaged 15ppg and 10 assist and 7.3 rebounds. Nobody on the team averaged 16ppg or got 8 rebounds per game or made the all defensive team outside of Kidd. [SIZE="4"][B]This is why you can't do the points mean everything argument on guys that have control of the game.
[/B][/SIZE]

Magic could morph into all types of positions. When Rodman was offensive rebounding like crazy on the Lakers Magic said let me me get him. And Rodman was controlled. When Kareem's 34 ppg was missing Magic added 8 more points to it and rebounded like crazy. Worthy couldn't play, Magic took up post scoring and fast break load. 16 assist 12 rebounds 8 points dominant game. 12 assist 10 rebounds 8 points dominant game. Lakers as a franchise were not winners, Magic converted minuses into pluses all the time. Could turn nothing into something all the time. He was very different and more intriguing to watch than even Jordan.

magic was better than bird but it is really close:coleman: