Phil Jackson on Scottie Pippen's as a leader

[QUOTE=Quizno]phil ****in jackson called pippen their leader you dweeb :oldlol: :oldlol:[/QUOTE]

Phil was smart to delegate and make every player feel like he had their role and importance to the team.

Gary Payton said it best, everyone knew Jordan was the president. Scottie was just vice president.

The Shaq-Kobe Lakers had more of a blur/overlap of who the no.1 really was, with the Bulls there was never really any doubt who it was.

Leadership also dictates itself on the court ... which player controls the game most on the court for his team. That was always Jordan.

People say Udonis Haslem is the "leader" of the Heat ... that's all fine and dandy, but LeBron is the one that has to dictate on the court or they aren't sh*t.

of COURSE MJ was the #1 guy. he was the best player in the league, but that doesn't mean another player on the team couldn't be one of the team leaders. look at PJ's quotes and his explanations, it's obvious that pippen was an excellent leader and other players looked to him for help moreso than MJ. that isn't a slight against MJ...it doesn't take away from his greatness. pippen is an all-time great player, one of the GOATs too

it's like kobe and d fish...kobe was the team's leader by example, but d fish was the team's leader in the sense that other players looked to him when they needed advice and help

[QUOTE]Gary Payton said it best, everyone knew Jordan was the president. Scottie was just vice president.[/QUOTE]

Gary Payton played on the Bulls? :eek: I'll believe Payton over Phil Jackson, Bill Wennington, B.J. Armstrong, John Paxson, and so on. :roll: Wasn't Payton known for being a jerk and poor leader btw?

Charley Rosen on Payton:

[QUOTE]Gary Payton
G.P. has always been a shoot-first point guard, favoring post-ups, open middles, and high-and-low screens to locate his shots[B]. He was also a confrontational player, demanding perfection form his teammates and his coaches, but never from himself. [/B]Payton's reputation for playing outstanding defense gained him All-Defense honors for nine seasons, and a famous nickname, "The Glove." Even so, during the 1996 Finals, the Chicago Bulls set out to prove something that they already knew — that Payton's rep was mostly bogus. In lieu of playing solid contain defense, Payton routinely gambled for steals at every opportunity, and when he failed he put his teammates in jeopardy. The Bulls limited Payton's room to maneuver by posting Michael Jordan, who had little difficulty catching, shooting, driving, and generally having his way against G.P. Payton's game was, and is, less than meets the eye.
[/QUOTE]

What MJ stans fail to grasp is the best player does not always=the leader and it definitely does not=the sole leader. Bill Cartwright was a role player and a leader on the Bulls. Derek Fisher was a role player and a leader on the Lakers--and of the player's union. Pippen by 2001-2003 was a role player but still a leader in Portland doing there what he did in Chicago.

[QUOTE]People say Udonis Haslem is the "leader" of the Heat ... that's all fine and dandy, but LeBron is the one that has to dictate on the court or they aren't sh*t.
[/QUOTE]

Yeah, Pippen was dictating the offense and defense. "Scottie was our voice."--Phil Jackson You :mad: ?

[QUOTE]of COURSE MJ was the #1 guy. he was the best player in the league, but that doesn't mean another player on the team couldn't be one of the team leaders. look at PJ's quotes and his explanations, it's obvious that pippen was an excellent leader and other players looked to him for help moreso than MJ. that isn't a slight against MJ...it doesn't take away from his greatness. pippen is an all-time great player, one of the GOATs too

it's like kobe and d fish...kobe was the team's leader by example, but d fish was the team's leader in the sense that other players looked to him when they needed advice and help[/QUOTE]

:applause: Exactly. It isn't a hard concept to grasp. These Jordan mythologists just can't give anyone other than Mike credit.

[QUOTE=Quizno]of COURSE MJ was the #1 guy. he was the best player in the league, but that doesn't mean another player on the team couldn't be one of the team leaders. look at PJ's quotes and his explanations, it's obvious that pippen was an excellent leader and other players looked to him for help moreso than MJ. that isn't a slight against MJ...it doesn't take away from his greatness. pippen is an all-time great player, one of the GOATs too

it's like kobe and d fish...kobe was the team's leader by example, but d fish was the team's leader in the sense that other players looked to him when they needed advice and help[/QUOTE]

I don't have any qualms with that.

If that's what Roundball Rock and 97 bulls were pushing, I'd have no issue with it.

I have qualms with the clearly skewed narrative that someone Jordan wasn't a good leader either and that only Scottie was.

Jordan never had the epic lapses in leadership that Pippen had if we're going to throw stones only at one guy while ignoring all the warts on the other. Scottie had plenty of warts in this area too if we're being honest.

If Kobe or LeBron or Durant or Wade or any major player did what Pippen did in game 3 of that Knicks series, this board would have a full on melt down and it would be a daily topic of derision.

Also as an aside the Jordan-Steve Kerr fight thing ... so what? I don't mind guys have a bit of a throw down/fight in practise anyway. Why is that so taboo? This is a physical, competetive sport played by men, not the ice capades. You want to have that fire.

Maybe it's because I follow football and hockey too, but basketball doesn't need to such a p*ssy sport either.

[QUOTE=Soundwave]What fact? Also remind me when Jordan ever sat on the bench refusing to go into a game like Scottie did? When did Jordan ever bicker with other star teammates like Pippen did with Barkley and was unable to get his game to work with Hakeem as well? Did a Jordan led team ever suffer from a epic playoff choke job like the Blazers in 2000? [/QUOTE]
Michael Jordan assaulted one of his teammates. Come on. And he threatened another. He berated his boss, lets not act like Jordan was a saint.

[QUOTE]These aren't attributes I equate to "great leader" per se, there are lots of cracks in Scottie's armor. MJ may have had his spats with teammates, but I never saw it manifest itself on the court. [/QUOTE]
He never had to. And again, no one is defending what Pippen did. But it was one moment. His teammates and coaches forgave him. Let it go. He never repeted it.

[QUOTE]And IMO Rodman stayed relatively in check (relatively) in Chicago in part because he respected Jordan as the best player in the game. MJ commanded respect from everyone. [/QUOTE]
Lol. Jordan recieved respect due to his play on the court. Not because he was a jerk. Rodman worked because the Bulls allowed Rodman to be Rodman.

[QUOTE]You guys are cherry picking quotes, there are plenty of quotes that put MJ in a positive light, but you guys hand pick the ones centered about Pippen. [/QUOTE]
Youre the one saying that Jordan led by being a jackass. And that thats the only way to get results from people

What do you disagree with in the OP?

[QUOTE][B][U]Phil Jackson on Scottie Pippen as a leader[/U][/B]

[QUOTE=97 bulls]Michael Jordan assaulted one of his teammates. Come on. And he threatened another. He berated his boss, lets not act like Jordan was a saint.


He never had to. And again, no one is defending what Pippen did. But it was one moment. His teammates and coaches forgave him. Let it go. He never repeted it.


Lol. Jordan recieved respect due to his play on the court. Not because he was a jerk. Rodman worked because the Bulls allowed Rodman to be Rodman.


Youre the one saying that Jordan led by being a jackass. And that thats the only way to get results from people[/QUOTE]

See above about spats with teammates. Like I said, I follow hockey and football too, basketball doesn't need to be a sport filled with p*ssies. Two player's getting heated in a practice is fine, good for Kerr for sticking up for himself.

Pippen also had his issues meshing with Barkley and Olajuwon and was at the head of perhaps one of the top 3 epic playoff meltdowns in history with the Blazers.

And yeah I would hope that Pippen "never did that again", one time was way too many, it's very likely that could've been the lasting impression of Pippen that people had if Jordan had opted just to stay playing baseball.

Thank gawd for Scottie the internet/Twitter/etc. wasn't a big thing back then otherwise it would've been 10000x worse.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]
Yeah, I am sure Obama (a real leader--even if you disagree with him you have to acknowledge to become president takes great leadership skills) routinely punches cabinet members and insults his staff.[/QUOTE]

But Obama walking out of the war room when Seal Team 6 was about to take out Osama because he didn't agree with a general's decision would've been a sign of legendary leadership, right?

And I notice no one has responded to my open challenge. There has to be at least a couple examples throughout the 60+ years of professional basketball History. But like I said, feel free to give me an example from any sport.

[QUOTE]Pippen also had his issues meshing with Barkley and Olajuwon and was at the head of perhaps one of the top 3 epic playoff meltdowns in history with the Blazers. [/QUOTE]

He led his team to Game 7 of the WCF against the 67 win Lakers who had two top 10 GOAT players (Shaq is top 5 imo), PEAK Shaq (top 1-3 peak), and the GOAT coach. They were minutes away from going to the Finals, where they would have been heavy favorites. Were you in the huddle? Did Pippen not try to stop it? Every account from his time in Portland praises his leadership.

Don't forget MJ's team--and you are saying MJ was THE leader--had an epic collapse in Game 6 in 95' in the closing minutes as well. Up 8 with 3 minutes left.

It is interesting you point to the collapse on Portland but not Pippen leading 4 bench players back in Game 6 of the Finals against Portland. Bulls.com called it Pippen's finest moment.

Pippen was a leader in Chicago and Portland (even in his final year in Chicago he had some impact on the team culture in 04'). What happened to Mike's leadership ability when he left Chicago? The players tuned him out in D.C.

Why don't you use Google and put together a thread on MJ's leadership like I did?

[B]ANyway. [SIZE="4"][COLOR="Red"]ON JORDAN'S BRAND OF LEADERSHIP.[/COLOR][/SIZE] [/B] (This is for Roundball_Rock too)

Jordan [b]absolutely needed Pippen[/b] to temper his edge with the right amount of coaxing and personable style. Jordan's harsh leadership style [i]generally[/i] isn't very effective, tbh.


[b]BUT[/b]

Jordan's harsh leadership would absolutely work with [b]only[/b] a particular type of people--and it works magnificently. But it would only be ideal under certain conditions:

>only in capacity of competitions
>on strong minded people
>on confident people
>on competitive/driven people

These people:
-rise to challenges
-don't cave under pressure
-are strong/confident enough not to collapse under MJ's overwhelming personality


That's why the bulls were so ****ing good and did so well in '94. The bulls culled the softer people out and were left with toughminded players led by Scottie.



[B]The difference between the 'weak' players Jordan wouldn't trust or respect:[/B]
[quote][B]He has practically ruined [reserve forward] Rodney McCray for us.' [/B]When the two players are on opposite teams in scrimmages, the source says, "[ Jordan] is in Rodney's face, screaming,[B] 'You're a loser! You've always been a loser!' Rodney can hardly put up a jumper now.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]
Pippen was a leader in Chicago and Portland (even in his final year in Chicago he had some impact on the team culture in 04'). What happened to Mike's leadership ability when he left Chicago? The players tuned him out in D.C.

Why don't you use Google and put together a thread on MJ's leadership like I did?[/QUOTE]

Jordan was 40 years old in Washington on a crap team playing because he wanted to play while he still had something left in his legs. You're going to tell me with a straight face that Pippen would've led that team anywhere in the same situation? Or any NBA player? I'm sorry even with a 40-year-old Bill Russell that team wasn't doing sh*t.

Swap Pippen with a 33 year old Jordan with those Rockets and he probably leads them to a title. Put a 34 year old Jordan on that Blazers team and they also probably win the championship.

Why don't I use Google to put together a MJ thread? Because I don't need to. I don't have an agenda that needs to be pushed so desperately that I'd spend an hour on Google to make a thread with cherry picked quotes in it as if its a school project or something.

Roundball_Rock has been working overtime flooding ISH with anti-MJ threads lately.

Dude, give that shit up. No matter how much you try to big up Scottie to make MJ look bad, it ain't gonna change the fact the MJ is GOAT and the Bulls didn't win shit before or after him, including the year and a half he was out and Scottie was the man. Add to the fact that as much as trolls like you and that ph@ggot meyha love to say that MJ never won without Pip, Pip didn't win jack nor shit without MJ--and that's with Pip going to a stacked team in the Blazers.

[QUOTE=sportjames23]Roundball_Rock has been working overtime flooding ISH with anti-MJ threads lately.
[/QUOTE]

Hardest working man in show business :applause:

Dude's like the terminator. Won't shut down until his objective is complete.

Must destroy GOAT's legacy :mad:

God speed, RR. God speed. :cheers:

[QUOTE=DonDadda59]But Obama walking out of the war room when Seal Team 6 was about to take out Osama because he didn't agree with a general's decision would've been a sign of legendary leadership, right?[/QUOTE]
That kind of thing happens often.

[QUOTE]And I notice no one has responded to my open challenge. There has to be at least a couple examples throughout the 60+ years of professional basketball History. But like I said, feel free to give me an example from any sport.[/QUOTE]
You want to name instances in which a player actually took himself out of a game? Lebron James just did it with 8 minutes to go in the NBA Finals. The Pistons left with the court early in 91.

I don't think Roundball_Rock is trying to make MJ look bad. I think he just feels Pippen's contributions and impact are unfairly downplayed.




And i think i need an avatar now.