Scottie Pippen Hopes to Be Traded to Suns (1995)

[QUOTE=mehyaM24]leader =/= best scorer

pippen stopped magic, the goat offensive player, from completely dominating the bulls- testament to his greatness.

i agree that if you take everything into account, the bulls' 91,96,98 titles are the most impressive. pippen took the bulls by the horn and spear-headed the run with his defense and playmaking.[/QUOTE]

Well Jordan did a lot more then just score.

So again, :oldlol: Jordan has arguably the greatest Finals ever but it's Pippen who was the leader :oldlol:

[QUOTE=guy]Well Jordan did a lot more then just score.

So again, :oldlol: Jordan has arguably the greatest Finals ever but it's Pippen who was the leader :oldlol:[/QUOTE]

having a great series doesn't make you a "leader". why do jordan fans (and only jordan fans) fail to grasp this concept? you've seen the articles and newspaper clippings RR pulled up. pippen was quite clearly "the guy" in chicago. the conductor of the offense/defense. the head of the snake.

[QUOTE]And Grant and Armstrong actually would've been great trade assets.[/QUOTE]

Yes--but not if you are seeking a superstar. Hornacek was a better player than either and the Suns still needed to give up two starters in addition to Hornacek for Barkley.

MJ was going to win rings anyway. Hakeem won without a loaded team in 94' and other teams that weren't stacked were contending in the 90's like the Knicks and Pacers. The question is whether MJ would be what he became--the best player on the biggest dynasty since the 60's--or would have been another Wilt, a great individual player (probably the BOAT) with 2 rings. MJ stans insist you could replace Pippen with any number of players and have similar results, meaning something akin to 6 rings, 8 ECF's and 3 ATG teams. The reason for their insecurity is understandable. Their argument for MJ over KAJ and especially Wilt revolves around team success. If his team success is deemed to be a product of favorable circumstances then suddenly it isn't that important, especially compared to people who did not have the same circumstances in their primes. So MJ stans for years have attempted to argue "GOAT gonna GOAT" and MJ's team doing what it did was a historical inevitably, with or without Pippen or Jackson.

[QUOTE] If they would've kept the same pick they traded for Pippen, they may have picked someone like Reggie Miller or Mark Jackson instead who were both available. [/QUOTE]

Miller was a SG. Jackson was not close to Pippen's caliber. If they wanted a SF, the next SF's taken after Pippen were average players. Only Lewis was an all-star and I believe he was the 4th SF taken that year at 22nd.

[QUOTE] I don't know what you call an "extended period" but Malone/Stockton, Payton/Kemp, Shaq/Penny, Drexler and/or Barkley/Hakeem, Hardaway/Zo, Hardaway/Mullin, were all together for at least 3 years in the 90s.[/QUOTE]

Pippen/Jordan spent almost their entire primes together. Only Malone/Stockon also did. It is no coincidence Chicago and Utah were, over the entirety of the 90's, the two most successful teams (Houston won 2 rings but was only a contender in 97' and maybe 93'. Utah was a perennial contender, reaching 5 WCF's in 7 years and 4 in 5).

[QUOTE=mehyaM24]i'll put it like this. when the bulls won their first ring in 91, it was [URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yf1KPq0yi40"] pippen guarding magic[/URL] and creating hell for the lakers. it was pippen who directed the offense and defense (getting jordan in position on the wing). it was pippen who was the leader.

kerr has gone on record saying, pippen not only would get you the good shot, but knew when you weren't feeling it and would work the offense to get you a good look to get going. pippen was the more favored teammate and leader. truth.[/QUOTE]
Pippen only guarded Magic for game 2 2 half. Mj was the primary defender in the whole series

[QUOTE=mehyaM24]leader =/= best scorer

pippen stopped magic, the goat offensive player, from completely dominating the bulls- testament to his greatness.

i agree that if you take everything into account, the bulls' 91,96,98 titles are the most impressive. pippen took the bulls by the horn and spear-headed the run with his defense and playmaking.[/QUOTE]
Mj Won every single finals MVP.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]Yes--but not if you are seeking a superstar. Hornacek was a better player than either and the Suns still needed to give up two starters in addition to Hornacek for Barkley.

MJ was going to win rings anyway. Hakeem won without a loaded team in 94' and other teams that weren't stacked were contending in the 90's like the Knicks and Pacers. The question is whether MJ would be what he became--the best player on the biggest dynasty since the 60's--or would have been another Wilt, a great individual player (probably the BOAT) with 2 rings. MJ stans insist you could replace Pippen with any number of players and have similar results, meaning something akin to 6 rings, 8 ECF's and 3 ATG teams. The reason for their insecurity is understandable. Their argument for MJ over KAJ and especially Wilt revolves around team success. If his team success is deemed to be a product of favorable circumstances then suddenly it isn't that important, especially compared to people who did not have the same circumstances in their primes. So MJ stans for years have attempted to argue "GOAT gonna GOAT" and MJ's team doing what it did was a historical inevitably, with or without Pippen or Jackson.



Miller was a SG. Jackson was not close to Pippen's caliber. If they wanted a SF, the next SF's taken after Pippen were average players. Only Lewis was an all-star and I believe he was the 4th SF taken that year at 22nd.



Pippen/Jordan spent almost their entire primes together. Only Malone/Stockon also did. It is no coincidence Chicago and Utah were, over the entirety of the 90's, the two most successful teams (Houston won 2 rings but was only a contender in 97' and maybe 93'. Utah was a perennial contender, reaching 5 WCF's in 7 years and 4 in 5).[/QUOTE]

Every great player can say that, relative to their competition Kareem and Russell had the benefit of better talent than Jordan did. Their team is going to tend to be better because for starters usually the best player in the league tips the scales in their favor.

The Bulls were a very good team, but they weren't a walking All-Star team like the 80s Lakers (or Celtics) were that helped shelter Kareem from the aging process and extended his career.

Russell's teams were far better than any team in 10-12 team league, the one time he faced Wilt with equal talent (1967), Wilt beat Russell handily.

If MJ had been drafted by Portland, he would've been in a situation more similar to Magic and Bird where they had very good teams from day 1 pretty much. Being drafted by Chicago was not some great break for him necessarily.

My personal feeling is if Krause mismanaged the Bulls, Jordan would've been traded (probably to the Lakers is my guess) and ended up on a good team sooner or later, even though you insist this is impossible. He was the biggest draw on the planet, he wasn't going to stay stay on a garbage team forever, David Falk (his agent) and the marketing powers that be at Nike/McDonalds/Coca-Cola etc. would push for a trade if the Bulls remained garbage.

[QUOTE=juju151111]Mj Won every single finals MVP.[/QUOTE]

rodman was the REAL finals mvp in 1996
pippen would have a finals mvp in 1998 had it not been for injury

when defense and intangibles are accounted for (leading the offense, defense, team captain), pippen played just as well as anyone in the 91, 97 and 98 finals (before injury).

problem is, these finals mvp awards are voted upon blinded individuals who are infatuated with volume scoring. you ask the bulls team who the real mvp was, and most would say pippen.

[QUOTE=mehyaM24]having a great series doesn't make you a "leader". why do jordan fans (and only jordan fans) fail to grasp this concept? you've seen the articles and newspaper clippings RR pulled up. pippen was quite clearly "the guy" in chicago. the conductor of the offense/defense. the head of the snake.[/QUOTE]

For every 1 mention/implication from an article or book that Pippen was the leader (and a lot of those he pulled up didn't even say that. They said he was a great teammate. And saying he was "a leader" doesn't mean he was "the leader") there's probably like 5-10 for Jordan.

Head of the snake? Wow :oldlol:

[QUOTE=mehyaM24]rodman was the REAL finals mvp in 1996
pippen would have a finals mvp in 1998 had it not been for injury

when defense and intangibles are accounted for (leading the offense, defense, team captain), pippen played just as well as anyone in the 91, 97 and 98 finals (before injury).

problem is, these finals mvp awards are voted upon blinded individuals who are infatuated with volume scoring. you ask the bulls team who the real mvp was, and most would say pippen.[/QUOTE]

:roll: :oldlol: :lol

[QUOTE=mehyaM24]rodman was the REAL finals mvp in 1996
pippen would have a finals mvp in 1998 had it not been for injury

when defense and intangibles are accounted for (leading the offense, defense, team captain), pippen played just as well as anyone in the 91, 97 and 98 finals (before injury).

problem is, these finals mvp awards are voted upon blinded individuals who are infatuated with volume scoring. you ask the bulls team who the real mvp was, and most would say pippen.[/QUOTE]
How did Pippen play has well has Mj in 91 and 97. The **** are you smoking idiot. 31,11,6 and guards Magic the majority of the series. Not to mention 2 stls a game. **** you retarded?

Just hit me what pip is (trait wise)

Submissive

[QUOTE]Every great player can say that, relative to their competition Kareem and Russell had the benefit of better talent than Jordan did. [/QUOTE]

KAJ certainly did not in his prime. When he did he was past his prime and thus his rings are diminished. His teams were going 3-14 and 7-13 without him in the mid and late 70's--not 55-27. Jordan clearly had better teams for his career than Wilt did, relative to their competition.

[QUOTE]If MJ had been drafted by Portland, he would've been in a situation more similar to Magic and Bird where they had very good teams from day 1 pretty much. Being drafted by Chicago was not some great break for him necessarily.[/QUOTE]

Yeah but Portland already had a SG. That isn't a realistic scenario. The Celtics were a 29 win team before Bird got there; he lifted them to 56 wins and the ECF as a rookie. MJ couldn't do the same. Magic was an exception because a good team had a high pick. That is rare. Usually high picks are held by bad teams, which is why most great players start out on poor teams.

It realistically is not possible to construct a scenario where MJ would have had a better situation than what he had. That isn't even a negative. He made the most of it. If MJ was on another team he could have developed differently. MJ credited his first year coach Kevin Loughery for "making me the player I am." MJ was able to join a team which, while it had a 23 ppg SF, allowed him to become the #1 offensive option out the gate.

[QUOTE]My personal feeling is if Krause mismanaged the Bulls, Jordan would've been traded (probably to the Lakers is my guess) and ended up on a good team sooner or later, even though you insist this is impossible.[/QUOTE]

I agree that he would have left if the Bulls were as incompetent as the Cavs were for LeBron under the Ferry regime. The catch, though, is you don't get MJ for nothing. When the Lakers traded for KAJ they had to gut their roster: giving up an all-star, a 16/11 center and the #2 and #8 picks from that year's draft. The net result was the Lakers with KAJ were not any better than they were the previous year because they gutted themselves for him. So MJ could have forced a trade but he would be right back where he started, under this scenario: the best player in the league surrounding by weak talent. I could still see him doing that because a competent regime could build around him over time (like Krause did in the real life scenario) but it would take time to do so, on top of the time MJ already had wasted in Chicago. He wins a title, probably multiple, in any scenario but there wouldn't be 6 rings and 3 ATG teams in these other scenarios. This is important since MJ fans rely so heavily on his team success to argue him over KAJ and Wilt.

What I say is impossible is the Bulls getting a superstar absent Pippen. They lacked the assets to do so and there is nothing to suggest Chicago can get a superstar outside of the draft. 30 years and Boozer, Wallace, Gasol and Rodman are the best non-draft players CHI has acquired. :oldlol: Think about it: the 90's Bulls did dangle peak Pippen for trades. The best offer they got was Shawn Kemp (an all-star but no superstar) and Ricky Pierce. So what do you think the Bulls would have gotten for Grant/Armstrong or Grant/Paxson? Realistically, the type of player they could have acquired was someone like Hornacek, who Krause foolishly did not trade for in 94'. MJ wasn't "GOAT gonna GOAT" his way to 72-10 and 6 rings with a Hornacek or Schrempf or Vin Baker.

Regarding the 91' Finals, imo MJ was the clear MVP of that series but without Pippen the Bulls don't win. Pippen almost averaged a triple double with 21/9/7 and his defense on Magic Johnson changed the fortune of the series, as Jackson has said. The Bulls were staring at going down 0-2 but Pippen held Magic to 14/7/10 after Magic put up a triple double on Mike in Game 1.

[QUOTE=juju151111]How did Pippen play has well has Mj in 91 and 97. The **** are you smoking idiot. 31,11,6 and guards Magic the majority of the series. Not to mention 2 stls a game. **** you retarded?[/QUOTE]

- defended magic the best of anyone in that series (20/9/7 with DPOY defense is a bill russell-like series)
- was the best defensive player and playmaker in the 97 finals (20/8/3 with DPOY defense, once again, is russell-like)

i know that jordan fans only think offense = basketball, but there's also another side. its called defense :oldlol:

Barkley was traded for Hornacek as the best player going to Philly and at that time he one really good season under his belt and 2 other solid ones.

So it's not like they sold the farm to get him.

Get Jordan to the Lakers and they eventually would surround him with very good talent IMO. Jerry Buss wanted Jordan badly especially after the LA Kings landed Wayne Gretzky and became the talk of the town.

[QUOTE=mehyaM24]
i know that jordan fans only think offense = basketball, but there's also another side. its called defense :oldlol:[/QUOTE]

Good thing Jordan is one of the best defensive players to ever have played the game :oldlol:

He is pretty much the apex of an NBA player mastering both offence and defence and team dominance simultaneously.

What argument are you even trying to push?