How is it even questionable that MJ is GOAT?

[QUOTE=Asukal]Yet you Wilt **********s always fail to give credit to his biggest rival and the real GOAT candidate of the 60's, Bill Russell. :rolleyes:

Go on keep on fapping to his regular season stats. :oldlol:

If there's anyone deserving of GOAT status other than MJ, its Bill Russell. Not that choking stat padder of the 60's. :banana:[/QUOTE]

Funny how I've [B]always [/B] mentioned Russell as a valid GOAT candidate, including this thread, when you'll see me mention him as a counter to Jordan being the GOAT (and he was the first one I mentioned), yet I belong to this category. So does Cavs and I've seen Lazeruss put him even at #1 career-wise, Phila also has him at top-2, and we're the biggest Wilt "homers" of this board. Funny how I never call Russell an "offensively invalid" player, unlike others, yet you call Wilt a "statpadding choker" (equally "correct"), yet I'm the "hater".
The ones who hate on Russell are much more frequently Jordan homers or teens and kids, not Wilt fans.
Not surprised, of course, accuracy had never been a virtue of yours when it comes to this matter, but I needed to point this out so that we keep ourselves honest.

[QUOTE=Marchesk]You're criticizing Wilt for loosing to Russell's teams, but then you admit that Jordan needed teammates to win? Was Jordan able to lead the Bulls past the Celtics or Pistons (the first 3 times)? No. Yet Wilt is faulted for not being able to do so with the Warriors?[/QUOTE]

Let's talk about the 2nd half of their careers when they both had enough help. One of them choked while the other 3peated twice. :rolleyes:

Wilt is on even close to the same level as MJ. Let it go.

[QUOTE=Psileas]Funny how I've [B]always [/B] mentioned Russell as a valid GOAT candidate, including this thread, when you'll see me mention him as a counter to Jordan being the GOAT (and he was the first one I mentioned), yet I belong to this category. So does Cavs and I've seen Lazeruss put him even at #1 career-wise, Phila also has him at top-2, and we're the biggest Wilt "homers" of this board. Funny how I never call Russell an "offensively invalid" player, unlike others, yet you call Wilt a "statpadding choker" (equally "correct"), yet I'm the "hater".
[B]The ones who hate on Russell are much more frequently Jordan homers or teens and kids, not Wilt fans.[/B]
Not surprised, of course, accuracy had never been a virtue of yours when it comes to this matter, but I needed to point this out so that we keep ourselves honest.[/QUOTE]

Oh get off your high horse, outside of all time lists Russell never gets talked about. He has NO stans, nada, ZERO! And kids who disrespect him are LBJ and Kobe stans. Jlauber/LAZ is his biggest hater, no surprise since he hates every great center not named Wilt. :rolleyes:

[B]I dont think its a clear MJ GOAT... Valid arguments can be made for Kareem and Bill...[/B]

Can somebody define 'questionable' or distinguish between 'arguable'?

[QUOTE=andgar923]Can somebody define 'questionable' or distinguish between 'arguable'?[/QUOTE]
I took it as meaning open to question. As in any other option isn't feasible, maybe I got It wrong. That's the reason for my angle in this discussion.

[QUOTE=pauk]

I have MJ at #1, dont get me wrong, but all i am saying is i wouldnt be mad if someone placed Russell at #1 or Wilt at #1, because i would very well understand why....[/QUOTE]

Nobody that has thoroughly researched and done their homework would be "mad" at putting Russell and/or Kareem over Jordan.

I do take issue with people ranking Wilt "GOAT" though. I really don't feel he was the postseason performer the guys above were.

[QUOTE=riseagainst]Wilt is on even close to the same level as MJ. Let it go.[/QUOTE]

The few people on here who saw Wilt play in person and the guy who has researched Wilt the most disagree. I'm guessing they know what they're talking about.

[QUOTE=Asukal]Let's talk about the 2nd half of their careers when they both had enough help. One of them choked while the other 3peated twice. :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

Wilt also played for two of the greatest teams ever. Injuries kept the 76ers from winning more titles. I'll grant you there are some questions when Wilt was on the Lakers, though.

I have AT LEAST 10 players BEFORE [SIZE="1"]jordan [/SIZE]on my GOAT list:confusedshrug:

[QUOTE=OldSchoolBBall][quote=HurricaneKid]
Originally Posted by HurricaneKid
Kind of embarrassing we are 5 pages in and no one has really bothered to make the case against MJ.

The biggest argument out there against MJ is the statistical calculation of impact on impact on score. RAPM is Ridge Adjusted Plus Minus. It attempts to remove who you are playing, who are you on the court with and your personal impact on score. Its a per possession calculation so sometimes you end up with outliers but MJ simply did not dominate this stat the way you would expect him to. In fact, his best season was ~+5.3. LeBron and TD have both had seasons > 10.0.[/quote]

Err, where are you getting this data from? As far as I know, RAPM was not calculated for any of Jordan's seasons, and if it was, it was likely only for '97/'98, not any of his prime seasons. Regardless, I'd like a source.

If we look at straight +/- as seen on NBA.com (which again only goes back to the '97 season, when Jordan was 34 years old), we see that Jordan led the league in +/- among starters in '97 and '98 at 7.2 and 7.5 +/- respectively. Compare that to Lebron's 1.4, 5.0 and 3.7 +/- in 2011, '13 and '14, respectively. Yes, Lebron did have an 8.7 +/- in 2012, but again that's prime James and a 34/35 year old Jordan.

Per basketball-reference.com, Jordan's SPM in 1993 was higher than Lebron's in 2010.[/QUOTE]

Still waiting on a source for this.

[QUOTE=Asukal]Oh get off your high horse, outside of all time lists Russell never gets talked about. He has NO stans, nada, ZERO! And kids who disrespect him are LBJ and Kobe stans. Jlauber/LAZ is his biggest hater, no surprise since he hates every great center not named Wilt. :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

And Russell having no stans (whatever you mean by "stans") is supposed to be our fault now? This is a board heavily focused on stats and the vast majority of posters are way too young to even care about players they didn't see play. Do you even think I (and others) somehow like it that Russell doesn't get more talk?
Lazeruss happens to believe that Wilt was individually better than Russell and focuses on this (that's, I suppose, why he's Wilt fan). But some others believe that Russell was nothing more than Joakim Noah or Dikembe Mutombo. So, who's exactly more anti-Russell again? And how come you, a supposed fan of him, are never there to refute their claims?

[QUOTE=OldSchoolBBall]Still waiting on a source for this.[/QUOTE]


[url]http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/[/url]


Not sure on the calculations. I think it is probably just xRAPM. But I would also assume box score influenced +/- would favor MJ.

Which player in history has goat-level athleticism AND Magic/Larry goat-level skill (skill based on maximum adjustability and quick reactions).

Jordan.. That's it... (ok maybe Baylor and Oscar too).