Dunking Data For 1988-1993: MJ is the Goat In-Game Dunker for Wing Players

It's amazing to me that anyone can watch a sampling of random games from the '87-'92 era and then watch games from the present era and conclude that it is MORE difficult to get to the basket and finish today. No way.

And let's not even START on the unique advantages Lebron has had in Miami, with the absurd spacing, two #1 options as his second and third options to keep defenders honest etc. The lane is WIDE OPEN today for a variety of reasons, and to top it off there are zero legit big man shotblockers in the league.

And to touch on something mentioned much earlier, which is dismissed by some Lebron fans: Jordan's versatility in leaping is a DEFINITE advantage over Lebron, and allowed him to do things on the court that Lebron could never do. Jordan was an ELITE leaper off of one foot, two feet (whether off a single gather step or run-up), and off a hop step. This meant that he could get air and jump in any direction once he was in the paint in ANY situation, not just in certain situations like Lebron can. Lebron basically needs a significant straight lane to the basket to get some momentum for a one-foot takeoff in order to dunk on someone or otherwise get serious air and pull off a crazy finish. Jordan could do it in ANY situation. Lebron could never DREAM of doing a dunk like this, or getting this kind of air/explosion, off such a quick small hop step:

[IMG]http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_Over_Rony_Seikaly_best_7eaa9998a5618610963252b80d69182b.gif[/IMG]

Or dunking on two big men off a quick hop step like this at the 14:27 mark:

[URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiNTTvD8yEk#t=14m27s"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiNTTvD8yEk#t=14m27s[/URL]

No way.

[QUOTE=3ball]Awesome table - how would you interpret the data in your table?[/quote]
I'm not sure how to interpret the data. It goes without saying that dunks are less common, but there are a few possible reasons why this might be the case.

I only started watching in 92-93 (and everything I've watched from before then is after the fact) so I can't comment on the coverage players were facing back then.

[quote]For my purposes, pace ties into the equation when i compare the number of dunks for two players in different eras, because the numbers need to be adjusted for pace.[/quote]
Pace should factor in on a team level, though on an individual level I'm not sure if this is the case. Generally when there are fewer possessions use, benchwarmers and scrubs are the ones losing out. I've posted the data before, and generally the median starter will be taking a similar number of shots (FGA+.44*FTA) in any era. So I don't think it's fair to penalize MJ here.

[quote]But once the number of dunks for each player is adjusted for pace, they can be effectively compared with a look at the average difficulty of dunking in that season, which are the fga/dunk stats above.[/quote]
This is a bit of a leap, and it's tough for me to decide how I feel about it. It's a distinct possibility, but it's not the only one. As eliteballer mentioned, it's possible that the dunk became more prevalent. Maybe there are a few reasons:

1) More players wanted to be like Mike, and dunked more often.
2) Players became more athletic over time, so dunks became more common.
3) For a number of reasons, layups could be becoming less common, and dunks more common.

]quote]Lebron got 128 dunks in 2009 and his team played at a 88.7 pace.
Jordan got 158 dunks in 1988 (same age) and his team played at a 95.5 pace.

Adjusted for pace, Jordan's dunks are 158/(95.5/88.7) = 146.75

To see if Jordan's 19 dunk advantage over Lebron holds any weight, refer to the FGA/Dunk Stat from each year... 1988 shows a difficulty rate of [I]1 dunk every 28.7 FGA[/I], while 2009 shows a difficulty rate of [I]1 dunk every 21.3 FGA[/I]. [/quote]
As I said above, I don't think we need to penalize MJ for pace. There's not much of an indication that star players take fewer shots when there are fewer possessions. The analysis in my table in terms of possessions was meant to be viewed on a team level.

That being said, I don't think we can assume fewer dunks implies dunking is more difficult. This is something we have to establish.

[quote]Conclusion: Jordan's advantage is legit and actually should be adjusted up for the higher difficulty rate.[/QUOTE]
I personally think MJ was the better dunker compared to LeBron, but again, I don't think we can draw any conclusions. In order to do so, we have to do a detailed comparison.

If we're talking about 88 and 09, I think a good start would be to get as much footage of MJ and LeBron from those seasons, and to perform a detailed analysis on the coverage faced. My scouting ability isn't the best, so I think we'd need to get some outside observers to view and break down the plays.

[QUOTE=fpliii]I'm not sure how to interpret the data. It goes without saying that dunks are less common, but there are a few possible reasons why this might be the case.

I only started watching in 92-93 (and everything I've watched from before then is after the fact) so I can't comment on the coverage players were facing back then.


Pace should factor in on a team level, though on an individual level I'm not sure if this is the case. Generally when there are fewer possessions use, benchwarmers and scrubs are the ones losing out. I've posted the data before, and generally the median starter will be taking a similar number of shots (FGA+.44*FTA) in any era. So I don't think it's fair to penalize MJ here.


This is a bit of a leap, and it's tough for me to decide how I feel about it. It's a distinct possibility, but it's not the only one. As eliteballer mentioned, it's possible that the dunk became more prevalent. Maybe there are a few reasons:

1) More players wanted to be like Mike, and dunked more often.
2) Players became more athletic over time, so dunks became more common.
3) For a number of reasons, layups could be becoming less common, and dunks more common.

]quote]Lebron got 128 dunks in 2009 and his team played at a 88.7 pace.
Jordan got 158 dunks in 1988 (same age) and his team played at a 95.5 pace.

Adjusted for pace, Jordan's dunks are 158/(95.5/88.7) = 146.75

To see if Jordan's 19 dunk advantage over Lebron holds any weight, refer to the FGA/Dunk Stat from each year... 1988 shows a difficulty rate of [I]1 dunk every 28.7 FGA[/I], while 2009 shows a difficulty rate of [I]1 dunk every 21.3 FGA[/I]. [/quote]
As I said above, I don't think we need to penalize MJ for pace. There's not much of an indication that star players take fewer shots when there are fewer possessions. The analysis in my table in terms of possessions was meant to be viewed on a team level.

That being said, I don't think we can assume fewer dunks implies dunking is more difficult. This is something we have to establish.


I personally think MJ was the better dunker compared to LeBron, but again, I don't think we can draw any conclusions. In order to do so, we have to do a detailed comparison.

If we're talking about 88 and 09, I think a good start would be to get as much footage of MJ and LeBron from those seasons, and to perform a detailed analysis on the coverage faced. My scouting ability isn't the best, so I think we'd need to get some outside observers to view and break down the plays.[/QUOTE]
Mj has more Poster dunks on Bigs his first 8 seasons then LJ have his whole career. LJ barely ever dunks on players especially Bigs. LJ and his 240-60 frame seems to get knocked in the air and turned in to layups. Mj was still dunking on Bigs ages 33-35. You won't find anything great for LJ dunking in 09. LJ doesn't have a lot of poster dunks period. You can probably remember them all offhand while Mj has so many they would make a long ass video of posters and still not have them all.

Let's see I remember James dunking on KG,Duncan(He didn't jump), Old Alanzo mourning and a bunch of PGs.

When you think of Mj list it's who didn't he dunk on.
Shaq,Mutumbo,mosses,Prime alanzo,Patrick Ewing, the whole Celtics frontline, The Cavs frontline, Jazz Center,Barkley, David Robinson, Tim Duncan etc.... I'm sure I'm missing a shit ton but this is what I mean. LJ isn't known to take a large Bumb in mid air and still finished. Mj would go through 3 people and it wouldn't turn into a layup, but continued with the dunk

[quote]The lane is WIDE OPEN today[/quote]
In the OP's screenshot, Barkley leads all players in dunks over the 6 year period. It is hard to imagine how much more efficient he would be around the basket. Based on the [URL="http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=8769975&postcount=41"]84 game sample[/URL] he appears to be a major outlier in NBA history shooting over 80% FG at the rim. There would probably be a lot more plays like this below, where he could just finish off penetration and not have to create everything like the Sixers years.

[URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfazxDAJTLk&t=3m9s"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfazxDAJTLk&t=3m9s[/URL]

This may be a bad example though, both Ewing & Oakley played it poorly. Very seldom did either of them ever make defensive errors, never mind both on the same play. It is just an example of Barkley catching and finishing, which he would be able to do more often not only due to the 3 second rule, but also the offensive freedom the PG's have. At least we know on the fastbreak he will fill the lane and not just run to the corner for the 3 pointer like some do today.



[IMG]http://s15.postimg.org/8klhgc8cb/giphy.gif[/IMG]

[IMG]http://s7.postimg.org/fbte7vr95/ug013341.gif[/IMG]

[IMG]http://s2.postimg.org/rbifgnopl/giphy.gif[/IMG]

[QUOTE=PHILA]In the OP's screenshot, Barkley leads all players in dunks over the 6 year period. It is hard to imagine how much more efficient he would be around the basket. Based on the [URL="http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=8769975&postcount=41"]84 game sample[/URL] he appears to be a major outlier in NBA history shooting over 80% FG at the rim. There would probably be a lot more plays like this below, where he could just finish off penetration and not have to create everything like the Sixers years.

[URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfazxDAJTLk&t=3m9s"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfazxDAJTLk&t=3m9s[/URL]

This may be a bad example though, both Ewing & Oakley played it poorly. Very seldom did either of them ever make defensive errors, never mind both on the same play. It is just an example of Barkley catching and finishing, which he would be able to do more often not only due to the 3 second rule, but also the offensive freedom the PG's have. At least we know on the fastbreak he will fill the lane and not just run to the corner for the 3 pointer like some do today.



[IMG]http://s15.postimg.org/8klhgc8cb/giphy.gif[/IMG]

[IMG]http://s7.postimg.org/fbte7vr95/ug013341.gif[/IMG]

[IMG]http://s2.postimg.org/rbifgnopl/giphy.gif[/IMG][/QUOTE]

much better than leflop :bowdown:

[QUOTE=juju151111]Mj has more Poster dunks on Bigs his first 8 seasons then LJ have his whole career. LJ barely ever dunks on players especially Bigs. LJ and his 240-60 frame seems to get knocked in the air and turned in to layups. Mj was still dunking on Bigs ages 33-35. You won't find anything great for LJ dunking in 09. LJ doesn't have a lot of poster dunks period. You can probably remember them all offhand while Mj has so many they would make a long ass video of posters and still not have them all.

Let's see I remember James dunking on KG,Duncan(He didn't jump), Old Alanzo mourning and a bunch of PGs.

When you think of Mj list it's who didn't he dunk on.
Shaq,Mutumbo,mosses,Prime alanzo,Patrick Ewing, the whole Celtics frontline, The Cavs frontline, Jazz Center,Barkley, David Robinson, Tim Duncan etc.... I'm sure I'm missing a shit ton but this is what I mean. LJ isn't known to take a large Bumb in mid air and still finished. Mj would go through 3 people and it wouldn't turn into a layup, but continued with the dunk[/QUOTE]
I agree that MJ has dunked on a ton of guys, and as I said above, I think he was the superior dunker in general.

I was just saying that if we want to definitively prove one way or another anything about the degree of difficulty in dunking, we need to watch a ton of each of their dunks from the years we're comparing (3ball suggested 88 and 09), and break down the coverage, and compare how each guy got to the hoop.

Not a dunk, but another example of Barkley finishing in traffic. His ball handling allowed him to lead the break and finish often before the center got into position under the basket.

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrGm1BoAUT0&t=1m54s[/url]

[quote]off a quick hop step[/quote]

Hubie Brown called it a [I]"bunny hop"[/I].

[URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrQWLLpzvWA&t=1h5m4s"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrQWLLpzvWA&t=1h5m4s[/URL]

One thing about LBj dunking on bigs is that more than anyone else, bigs tend to move out the way when lebron goes up for a dunk because they dont want to get put on a poster. There are countless examples of this happening. I remember Tyson Chandler running AWAY from the hoop just to avoid getting dunked on by LBJ.

[QUOTE=OldSchoolBBall]It's amazing to me that anyone can watch a sampling of random games from the '87-'92 era and then watch games from the present era and conclude that it is MORE difficult to get to the basket and finish today. No way.

And let's not even START on the unique advantages Lebron has had in Miami, with the absurd spacing, two #1 options as his second and third options to keep defenders honest etc. The lane is WIDE OPEN today for a variety of reasons, and to top it off there are zero legit big man shotblockers in the league.

And to touch on something mentioned much earlier, which is dismissed by some Lebron fans: Jordan's versatility in leaping is a DEFINITE advantage over Lebron, and allowed him to do things on the court that Lebron could never do. Jordan was an ELITE leaper off of one foot, two feet (whether off a single gather step or run-up), and off a hop step. This meant that he could get air and jump in any direction once he was in the paint in ANY situation, not just in certain situations like Lebron can. Lebron basically needs a significant straight lane to the basket to get some momentum for a one-foot takeoff in order to dunk on someone or otherwise get serious air and pull off a crazy finish. Jordan could do it in ANY situation. Lebron could never DREAM of doing a dunk like this, or getting this kind of air/explosion, off such a quick small hop step:

[IMG]http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_Over_Rony_Seikaly_best_7eaa9998a5618610963252b80d69182b.gif[/IMG]

Or dunking on two big men off a quick hop step like this at the 14:27 mark:

[URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiNTTvD8yEk#t=14m27s"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiNTTvD8yEk#t=14m27s[/URL]

No way.[/QUOTE]

Lebron can do those with ease. I'll try to find some footage but I clearly remember Lebron doing similar dunks on the cavs. I think people are so used to seeing lebron bionic left leeg/one footers they are strating to convin themselves that LBJ doesn't have elite 2 foot leaping ability:oldlol:


[b]LEBRON JAMES 7 DUNKS on Toronto Raptors [/b]

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6H3YgM1JHw&hd=1[/url]

@ :15 secs for a 2 footed dunk

[QUOTE=Hoopz2332]Lebron can do those with ease. I'll try to find some footage but I clearly remember Lebron doing similar dunks on the cavs. I think people are so used to seeing lebron bionic left leeg/one footers they are strating to convin themselves that LBJ doesn't have elite 2 foot leaping ability:oldlol:


[b]LEBRON JAMES 7 DUNKS on Toronto Raptors [/b]

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6H3YgM1JHw&hd=1[/url]

@ :15 secs for a 2 footed dunk[/QUOTE]

Lebron can't do anything CLOSE to the dunks I posted. lol @ the dunk you cited at the 15 second mark of that video. He's already running for several steps, has all the time in the world to gather, and while yes, he jumps off of two feet (no one said he couldn't do so, only that he's not as good at MJ at it), he gets pretty wretched air. Only his arm extension makes it look nice. Show me elite dunks over people off a hop step from Lebron. Good luck.

[QUOTE=Hoopz2332]One thing about LBj dunking on bigs is that more than anyone else, bigs tend to move out the way when lebron goes up for a dunk because they dont want to get put on a poster. There are countless examples of this happening. I remember Tyson Chandler running AWAY from the hoop just to avoid getting dunked on by LBJ.[/QUOTE]

So it's a weak era for bigs then. Cool.

[QUOTE=Hoopz2332]One thing about LBj dunking on bigs is that more than anyone else, bigs tend to move out the way when lebron goes up for a dunk because they dont want to get put on a poster. There are countless examples of this happening. I remember Tyson Chandler running AWAY from the hoop just to avoid getting dunked on by LBJ.[/QUOTE]

So this advanced defense I've been hearing so much about = dpoy centers running away from offensive players? :yaohappy:

[QUOTE=Hoopz2332]One thing about LBj dunking on bigs is that more than anyone else, bigs tend to move out the way when lebron goes up for a dunk because they dont want to get put on a poster. There are countless examples of this happening. I remember Tyson Chandler running AWAY from the hoop just to avoid getting dunked on by LBJ.[/QUOTE]

Right. And then you have people who argue that the 90s were a weak era, yet you can waltz into the lane nowadays practically unimpeded with the shotblockers running away to avoid getting dunked on. Hakeem, Shaq, Admiral, Mourning, Mutombo, Ewing would be proud.

[QUOTE=Dragonyeuw]Right. And then you have people who argue that the 90s were a weak era, yet you can waltz into the lane nowadays practically unimpeded with the shotblockers running away to avoid getting dunked on. Hakeem, Shaq, Admiral, Mourning, Mutombo, Ewing would be proud.[/QUOTE]

The funny thing is he's right. I've actually noticed that. Not just with Bron either- centers don't really challenge dunks like they use to. Nowadays they either run away (or are forced to because of the 3 sec rule), try to take a charge, or stand in place with their hands in the air like that's going to do something. Guys like Zo and Ewing were in a lot of posters because they actually tried challenging/blocking dunks. Sometimes it didn't work out for them but most of the time they either blocked or altered shot/dunk attempts at the rim. Their blocking #s are a testament to that.

Guys are afraid of being dunked on now, but before it was accepted as part of the game.