Do any of you want religion/God to be true?

[QUOTE=MavsSuperFan]I am only intimately family with Christianity.

I would not want Christianity's version of heaven and hell to be true.

Some of the acts Christianity deems morally acceptable I find abhorrent.
- Slavery, and enslaving people
- raping a woman if you marry her afterwards
- A woman raped inside a city
- turning a woman into a pillar of salt for looking back at a city being destroyed
-Sex with prepubescent girls.
-Killing a child born of your wife that is not yours.
-many crimes (that i consider minor or not crimes at all) that Christianity sees as warranting execution and/or torture.
-etc

Some of the acts Christianity finds morally unacceptable I find abhorrent and/or ridiculous.
- Slaves disobeying the masters
- Sex out of wedlock
- *********ion
[B]- Being gay
- Wearing clothes of 2 different fabrics
- Eating Shellfish[/B]
- etc[/QUOTE]

Ahh yeah, Leviticus is a personal favorite of mine. :oldlol: :hammerhead:

[QUOTE=masonanddixon]I was speaking more on the logical extensions of Atheism. If[B] you don't believe in any sort of creator it makes it very difficult to piece together anything in life and it makes any end or purpose ultimately meaningless or without purpose[/B]. If there's no consequences or no relation to the decisions in life you make, how can you even truly exist?[/QUOTE]
The purpose is to be happy, to enjoy life, to take care of the people you care about. Eg. go out get a job, make money, spend it on and with people you love and have fun with them.

[QUOTE]If there's no consequences or no relation to the decisions in life you make, how can you even truly exist?[/QUOTE]

How is there no consequences? if you dont go to work, I will be poor and eventually have nothing to eat and not have the resources to buy pleasurable experiences, Eg. a vacation to Hawaii.

I work because I need resources to live and enjoy life.

[QUOTE=MavsSuperFan]The purpose is to be happy, to enjoy life, to take care of the people you care about. Eg. go out get a job, make money, spend it on and with people you love and have fun with them.



How is there no consequences? if you dont go to work, I will be poor and eventually have nothing to eat and not have the resources to buy pleasurable experiences, Eg. a vacation to Hawaii.

I work because I need resources to live and enjoy life.[/QUOTE]

Well that's a fair point, but unless you have a strong existing set of morals and values to supplement Atheism, it's very easy to degenerate into hedonism. And I have found thats what often happens over time.

But if you don't have anything to tie your actions to, there's nothing to stop you from killing yourself, killing your relatives, being abusive to your children, etc. etc. since there is no belief in anything beyond being nothing more than fertilizer for the earth upon death.

For the record, I am not religious at all. Far more into mysticism. But I do believe in a higher being which created the world at some stage.

[QUOTE=masonanddixon]Well that's a fair point, but unless you have a strong existing set of morals and values to supplement Atheism, it's very easy to degenerate into hedonism. And I have found thats what often happens over time.

But if you don't have anything to tie your actions to, there's nothing to stop you from killing yourself, killing your relatives, being abusive to your children, etc. etc. since there is no believe in anything beyond being fertilizer for the earth upon death.

For the record, I am not religious at all. Far more into mysticism. But I do believe in a higher being which created the world at some stage.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]but unless you have a strong existing set of morals and values to supplement Atheism, it's very easy to degenerate into hedonism.[/QUOTE]
2 points
1. I always find it scary how many christians make the argument "man without the bible why wouldnt people go around robbing, murdering and raping others? If I didnt think I would burn in hell, I would totally be doing that."

I dont believe there is a hell. I dont rape women because I think its wrong to hurt someone like that. I dont murder people because its wrong to end an innocent life for no reason. I dont Steal, because theft is an extremely selfish move. My morality is very basic. I ask how would I feel if someone did that to me or someone I love. If I am ok with it or would think I have done something that warranted that action against someone I love or myself, than it is a moral action to me. If not its immoral to me.

Its not that hard imo to not kill, steal, rape, etc. I dont need to be tricked into thinking I will burn for an eternity to prevent me from doing so or tricked into believing if I am moral I will live in luxury fro an eternity

2. Depending on how you define hedonism, I have no problem with it. If everyone is a consenting adult and everyone is having fun, and if you have the resources to buy what is necessary to support this fun, why stop? If you are hurting someone or doing something against their consent or they are not old enough to consent, then that is clearly wrong.

[QUOTE]And I have found thats what often happens over time.
[/QUOTE]
[IMG]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/47/Europe_belief_in_god.svg/800px-Europe_belief_in_god.svg.png[/IMG]
Percentages of people in European countries who said in 2005 that they "believe there is a God

you will note that many of the advanced European countries have more than 50% of the population saying they dont believe there is a god. Europe has arguably the highest standard of living of any continent on earth.

[QUOTE]But if you don't have anything to tie your actions to, there's nothing to stop you from killing yourself, killing your relatives, being abusive to your children, etc. etc. since there is no believe in anything beyond being fertilizer for the earth upon death[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]stop you from killing yourself,[/QUOTE]
I believe in assisted suicide. If I am terminally Ill and suffering everyday I will not hesitate to kill my self. Currently I enjoy life so I wont.

Everything else you mentioned has zero appeal to me.

[QUOTE] killing your relatives, being abusive to your children[/QUOTE]
The bible supports abuse against children and killing relatives in many circumstances.

people who need the bible to be good are NOT good people

[QUOTE=masonanddixon]Well that's a fair point, but unless you have a strong existing set of morals and values to supplement Atheism, it's very easy to degenerate into hedonism. And I have found thats what often happens over time.

But if you don't have anything to tie your actions to, there's nothing to stop you from killing yourself, killing your relatives, being abusive to your children, etc. etc. since there is no belief in anything beyond being nothing more than fertilizer for the earth upon death.

For the record, I am not religious at all. Far more into mysticism. But I do believe in a higher being which created the world at some stage.[/QUOTE]
Man doesn't need religion to be moral. And just because somebodies religious doesn't mean they have good morals. The two just aren't related.

[QUOTE=NumberSix]Maybe God isn't "magic" like you all believe. Perhaps he's just a scientist or a group of scientists. Do our scientists make things "perfect"? No. Things can always be updated. But what if you could make it so that your creations update themselves? That would be brilliant.[/QUOTE]Not what I believe that's what most religious people believe :confusedshrug: And Christians (you know the people that believe in creationism) believe God is all knowing and all powerful so yeah if he was real he could make things perfect. Then again if he was all powerful then yes he could have created evolution which I said in the post you quoted. That's not really my point though. As I said twice in the post you quoted evolution doesn't prove the existence of a God one way or the other which was my point.

[QUOTE=MavsSuperFan]I am only intimately familiar with Christianity.

I would not want Christianity's version of heaven and hell to be true.

[QUOTE]Some of the acts Christianity deems morally acceptable I find abhorrent.[/QUOTE]
Im not sure if it was you but I've already refuted these erroneous concepts. Ill do it again. And Id appreciate your opinion on these scriptures.
[QUOTE]- Slavery, and enslaving people[/QUOTE]
Exodus 21:16

[QUOTE]- raping a woman if you marry her afterwards[/QUOTE]
Deuteronomy 22:25-28

[QUOTE]- A woman raped inside a city[/QUOTE]
Can you elaborate?

[QUOTE]- turning a woman into a pillar of salt for looking back at a city being destroyed[/QUOTE]
No. It was due to her disobedience.

[QUOTE]-Sex with prepubescent girls.[/QUOTE]
Id like to see a scripture reference.

[QUOTE]-Killing a child born of your wife that is not yours.[/QUOTE]
Again. Can I see a scripture reference?

[QUOTE]-many crimes (that i consider minor or not crimes at all) that Christianity sees as warranting execution and/or torture.
-etc[/QUOTE]
I don't mean to be flippant, but who are you to say whats right or wrong?

[QUOTE]Some of the acts Christianity finds morally unacceptable I find abhorrent and/or ridiculous.
- Slaves disobeying the masters
- Sex out of wedlock
- *********ion
- Being gay
- Wearing clothes of 2 different fabrics
- Eating Shellfish
- etc[/QUOTE]
It's proven that all things mentioned have dire side effects. Theres a reason God makes rules for us to follow. Its not so much the act, but the consequences that follow.

Ive seen you argue that if you dont follow police instructions, what you get is what you deserve. I don't see a difference in the basic concept. There are consequences for not following directions.

[QUOTE=Patrick Chewing]Leave the insults for grade school. I'm trying to explain that it would be a circular and futile argument to keep asking what was before this and who was before that.

Remember Einstein's explanation of the fabric of time? [B]He said that the past, present, and future all exist at the same time. So we cannot get muddled with this. Scientists want you to believe in a big bang, but yet have no explanation for it. Yet, if the universe is as old as they say it is,[/B] why is there no evidence of other big bangs of creation?

So I'll look at this from a non-religious perspective and say, since you cannot create something from nothing, then I can firmly believe that something created it and this is the creator, God, whatever you want to call it.[/QUOTE]

A little bit late to the party, but I want to give my 2cents and clarify some stuff. Tell me if I'm wrong or whatever.

[B]With Einstein's explanation of the fabric of time:[/B]

It's mainly about the perception of now or the current time. Time is relative due to location (space). If you know a little about astronomy, you'll know that when you look at the stars and planets out in space, you are looking at the past. When we look at the Sun, we are looking at the Sun from 8 minutes ago in the past. This is because light has a speed limit and it takes a while to reach a location.

So, lets say if bend space and time and go to a planet that is a million light years away from Earth. And then we decided to put a Hubble telescope and look at Earth, we would see Earth a million years ago in the past. That is relativity based upon location.

This occurs even with the space between you and whatever that's in front of you (computer, person, or whatever matter that you can see). You cannot see or be aware of "now", the current time. The reason why is because it takes time to see and process what you are seeing in your brain. So, we have lag. This is the illusion that Einstein was referring to. Everything that you are seeing or hearing is in the past. You see a star in the sky? That's in the past, but it's happening "now" for you. This is what it means to live in the past and present simultaneous. The future is events that haven't happened yet, so we can't see it. However, lets say we have a ship that could go at the speed of light (Mass Effect style). We'll predict where Pluto in its orbit in like 5 hours and then travel there, boom! Say hi to the future (Planet of the Apes yo). Of course this is more complex due to angles and where we are in space.

You can basically look out into space to analysis the age of our universe due to theory of relativity too.

With that said, it is important to classify time. Time is a measurement of events and the duration between events. It is a language we use to measure change. Time is constant because there is always change. Every single thing is in motion. Right down to the subatomic particles. So in other words, as long there is the smallest amount of change, there is time. Something that exist outside of time, is never changing. No motion, no thought, nothing. It is literally doing nothing. You can argue that it is nothing. If it does something, then it exist within time.

[B][U]tldr;[/U][/B] We don't see the present, but we see the past due to relativity of space and time.

[B]Big Bang[/B]

1. Since we look into the past while we're looking at into space, we can see crap. We could calculate how old some galaxies are and shit.

2. The Universe is constantly expanding. We know this because of the redshift of distant galaxies. Using some deduction, this implies that the Universe was once dense.

3. If the Universe was once very hot at one point if the Big Bang happened. We should find evidence for it and we did with cosmic microwave background (CMB). CMB is an thermal radiation. The theory predicts that it should exist and it should be visble as microwaves.

So, there's evidence for it and the best explanation due to the evidence. We don't know what happened before Big Bang. We don't know if we will find out. If you believe god did it, then whatever. Maybe. It also could be the god of the gap. We also only know about 5% of the Universe. The rest is dark matter and dark energy. Dark energy could be is what is expanding our Universe. Dark matter contributes to gravity (the reason why we know it's there), but it doesn't interact with photons or any electromagnetic forces. But both of them are known unknowns, lolz. Things we know that we don't know.

Same applies before the Big Bang. Things we know that we don't know. But yeah bro, there are known knowns, and there are known unknowns, but there is also unknowns unknowns. Things we don't know we don't know.

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2msQwpzatQc[/url]

[QUOTE=masonanddixon]I feel like you need some creator to exist in order to retain any sort of perspective and sanity as a man.

Atheism is a very dark, bleak, blotted out road to take and only becomes worse with age.[/QUOTE]

You sound like Oprah when she said that marveling at nature means you believe in God.

[QUOTE=Nowitness]You sound like Oprah when she said that marveling at nature means you believe in God.[/QUOTE]

[img]http://bitchspot.jadedragononline.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Creationist5.jpg[/img]

[QUOTE=Nanners][img]http://bitchspot.jadedragononline.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Creationist5.jpg[/img][/QUOTE]

Sounds familiar:

[QUOTE=Real14]Exactly. Who makes us breath? Who make our brain function? To all of the non believers out there, you can't see wind but you believe its there right?[/QUOTE]


:facepalm :oldlol:

[QUOTE=BrownEye007]Man doesn't need religion to be moral. And just because somebodies religious doesn't mean they have good morals. The two just aren't related.[/QUOTE]

Did you not read what I wrote?

I never said religion makes you moral.

I said that atheism leads to a slippery slope.

[QUOTE=Nowitness]You sound like Oprah when she said that marveling at nature means you believe in God.[/QUOTE]

lol wut? I'm not like that ape negress at all.

I'm just looking at these perspectives from behind the lens of a kaleidoscope of logic.

This is a stupid question, OP, with regard to Christianity.

All the people who would go to heaven should say yes. All the people who would go to hell should say no.