MJ is the most double-teamed player of all time, besides Wilt

[QUOTE=ShaqTwizzle]Any video of Prime Shaq will show him being doubled consistently.
Go watch G2 of the 2001 Finals if you want.
Doubled on almost every possession.

Jordan was never auto-doubled over his Prime against almost every opponent the way Shaq was.



Yeah well in the 90's Jordan had Pippen and sharp shooters like Kerr, Kukoc and Paxson.
He was doubled far less then.
Go watch the 92 Finals. Portland barely doubled Jordan in that series.



The help was late. Jordan was not doubled on that play.



I watched one of the videos and it wasn't all doubles.
Yes I am sure you can find games where Jordan got heavily doubled and the same is true for Shaq (but in greater quantity).



Yes Detroit went after Jordan pretty hard.
Jordan still did great because he is the GOAT.
You might think I dislike Jordan but I don't.
I just don't think he was doubled more then Shaq and I think it is ok if we disagree on that.
Anyone who watched both of them knows that Shaq was doubled far more often.
No one in league history came close to drawing as many double/triple teams as Prime Shaq did. Not even the GOAT (MJ).
Your energy is best spent working on some other facet of his game because you are never gonna convince people of this.[/QUOTE]

For one Shaq wasn't doubled more than MJ, for two it is less desirable for your star player to draw attention [i]towards[/i] the basket rather than away. Freeing up the paint for easy layup and dunk opportunities is the optimal approach for a successful and efficient offense. This is achieved by drawing defenders out on the perimeter, not drawing attention towards the middle and settling for jump shots due to congestion in the key.

Therefore even if Shaq was doubled as much as Jordan, which he wasn't, [i]it would still lead to less efficient team opportunities when compared to Jordan.[/i]

You guys are killing me. Unless if you watched almost every game of peak MJ and Shaq, there is no way to know who was doubled more. And in the grand scheme of things, does it matter? Both had two of the best peaks ever and defenses had sleepless nights game planning against them.

However, I do believe that MJ was THE most impactful player EVER regardless of position.

As a bran stan, it really is a big insult for me that hes being guarded like a role player

Too bad Pippen didn't let him double-team Madonna

[quote=3ball]I played with tons of NBA players and I'm on sports-reference.com

That should shut up your delusion that I'm a "new" fan.. I'm 38 and played against most of your "heroes"... They weren't heroes to me though - they were the guys I competed against - that's why I can dissect their games better than any other poster you've ever seen (whether you realize it or not).

You guys are the new fans that must change the facts of history to say Lebron matches MJ... for example, Dr.J4ever, sdot_thadon, and flpii spread lies in the forums by saying the 80's DID have spacing, and therefore spacing can't be used as an argument to say today's spacing makes it easier on offensive players. You guys are a bunch of ****[/quote]

:biggums:

3ball and warriorfan going full retard ITT.

I went through all the games from the 2000 Finals, when Shaq was at his uber-peak... Shaq was never doubled every possession for extended periods like MJ was - the most Shaq was ever doubled was 3 times in a row.

It never happened for longer stretches like MJ, for 2 reasons: 1) the option was always there to send Shaq to FT line - he has a zillion unearned FT's in his career... 2) For Shaq's entire career, he played with All-NBA guards and a bevy of 3-point shooters, so it was far more dangerous to double Shaq than MJ, whose 80's teams were a 1-man show with no 3-point shooters.. These are all irrefutable facts.

Even though I've already provided 3 examples where MJ is doubled every time he touches it for 10+ possessions in a row (see OP and the 2 links below), I could easily find many more.. All I have to do is look up any Bulls-Pistons playoff game from 1988-1990 - that's when MJ faced the "[I]Jordan Rules[/I]", which were double teams every time he caught the ball!!

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLDGm8pV6uU&t=6m40s[/url]
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOS1qNTWb70[/url]

[QUOTE=3ball]I went through all the games from the 2000 Finals, when Shaq was at his uber-peak...
It never happened for longer stretches like MJ, for 2 reasons: 1) the option was always there to send Shaq to FT line - he has a zillion unearned FT's in his career... 2) For Shaq's entire career, [B]he played with All-NBA guards and a bevy of 3-point shooters, so it was far more dangerous to double Shaq than MJ, whose 80's teams were a 1-man show with no 3-point shooters.. [U]These are all irrefutable facts[/U].[/B]

Even though I've already provided 3 examples where MJ is doubled every time he touches it for 10+ possessions in a row (see OP and the 2 links below), I could easily find many more.. All I have to do is look up any Bulls-Pistons playoff game from 1988-1990 - that's when MJ faced the "[I]Jordan Rules[/I]", which were double teams every time he caught the ball!!

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLDGm8pV6uU&t=6m40s[/url]
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOS1qNTWb70[/url][/QUOTE]
Unless you can provide IRREFUTABLE PROOF it's not a fact, you literal retard.

Please go to a free clinic (as you probably can't afford anything else) and get your tubes tied. Either that or take a blow torch castrate yourself.

[QUOTE=aj1987]


[B]Unless you can provide IRREFUTABLE PROOF it's not a fact, you literal retard.
[/B]

[/QUOTE]

[B]All NBA guards Shaq played with[/B]: Kobe, Wade, Penny

[B]Here's the bevy of 3-point shooters Shaq played with - all these guys shot over 37% with at least 4 attempts alongside Shaq[/B]: Dennis Scott, Nick Anderson, Robert Horry, Derek Fisher, Jason Williams, James Posey, Antoine Walker.

[I]All of Shaq's teams that appeared in the Finals attempted at least 18 threes per game... By comparison, MJ's 80's Bulls peaked at 6.5 threes per game in 1989
[/I]

[IMG]https://i.imgflip.com/rudtg.gif[/IMG]

[QUOTE=3ball][B]All NBA guards Shaq played with[/B]: Kobe, Wade, Penny

[B]Here's the bevy of 3-point shooters Shaq played with - all these guys shot over 37% with at least 4 attempts alongside Shaq[/B]: Dennis Scott, Nick Anderson, Robert Horry, Derek Fisher, Jason Williams, James Posey, Antoine Walker.

[I]All of Shaq's teams that appeared in the Finals attempted at least 18 threes per game... By comparison, MJ's 80's Bulls attempted a high of 6.5
[/I]

[IMG]https://i.imgflip.com/rudtg.gif[/IMG][/QUOTE]

I believe that is called irrefutable proof.

[QUOTE=warriorfan]I believe that is called irrefutable proof.[/QUOTE]

Not really.
He just listed the #2's Shaq played with and some average roleplayers.

Guess what?
Jordan played with Pippen and great shooting roleplayers like Kerr, Paxson and Kukoc during his contending years. Shaq wish he had that shooting.

Either way it didn't matter who you surrounded Shaq with because giving him single coverage was absolute suicide.
He'd just overpower his man and score with ease. You HAD to double team him unless you had a Robinson or something and even those teams consistently doubled him.

Go watch the 92 Finals and tell me Jordan was doubled as much as Shaq was in the early 00-02 Finals.
He wasn't and its not even close.

Shaq was doubled more then any other player in the league history.

3ball needs to stop shilling his disinfo.
Jordan wasn't the best at absolutely everything.
He didn't draw the most doubles and he didn't block the most shots.

He also keeps mentioning the Pistons matchups from the 80's like that is all the info that he needs.
Even if they did double him as much as he says it doesn't mean anything because he is ignoring how all the other teams defended him from those years and his other years when he had better casts.

If Shaq was heavily doubled by all teams throughout his Prime while Jordan was only doubled heavily by one team in the late 80's well then.... I think we have a winner.
Not saying that was the case but 3ball acts like it is.

[QUOTE=ShaqTwizzle]

He'd just overpower his man and score with ease. You HAD to double team him [SIZE="3"][B]unless you had a Robinson or something[/B][/SIZE] and even those teams consistently doubled him.

Go watch the 92 Finals and tell me Jordan was doubled as much as Shaq was in the early 00-02 Finals.

[/QUOTE]
You just killed the very point you're trying to make with the bolded above - the Blazers had Drexler, just like the Spurs had Robinson, so they weren't as inclined to double team, although they still did a ton.

And the point being made is that MJ was doubled in the 80's far more than Shaq ever was, because the 80's Bulls were more of a 1-man show than any of Shaq's teams, since he played with a bevy of all-nba guards his entire career (Penny, Wade, Kobe, Lebron).

80's MJ was also double-teamed far more because he didn't play with a bevy of 3-point shooters like Shaq and you couldn't just foul him to send him to the line like you could Shaq - Shaq has a zillion unearned FT's in his career.. Again, these are all irrefutable facts - the point that 80's MJ was doubled far more than Shaq, and more than any player ever (except Wilt) has been proven pretty clearly itt.
.

[QUOTE=3ball][B]All NBA guards Shaq played with[/B]: Kobe, Wade, Penny

[B]Here's the bevy of 3-point shooters Shaq played with - all these guys shot over 37% with at least 4 attempts alongside Shaq[/B]: Dennis Scott, Nick Anderson, Robert Horry, Derek Fisher, Jason Williams, James Posey, Antoine Walker.

[I]All of Shaq's teams that appeared in the Finals attempted at least 18 threes per game... By comparison, MJ's 80's Bulls peaked at 6.5 threes per game in 1989
[/I]

[IMG]https://i.imgflip.com/rudtg.gif[/IMG][/QUOTE]
Shaq being doubled more than MJ is just your delusional opinion, unless you can provide IRREFUTABLE proof.

MJ should've probably commanded more defensive attention, that would've opened up space for 3's. :cheers:

[QUOTE=3ball]You just killed the very point you're trying to make with the bolded above - the Blazers had Drexler, just like the Spurs had Robinson
.[/QUOTE]
Clyde didn't make a single All-NBA team. Robinson is a DPOY.

[QUOTE=3ball]You just killed the very point you're trying to make with the bolded above - the Blazers had Drexler, just like the Spurs had Robinson, so they weren't as inclined to double team.
[/QUOTE]

Yeah except the Spurs still doubled Shaq far more often then the Blazers doubled Jordan.
Also Robinson was a GOAT defender while Drexler... was not.

[QUOTE]And the point being made is that MJ was doubled in the 80's far more than Shaq ever was.[/QUOTE]

Except that is not even true.
Maybe 80's Jordan VS Detroit in certain games or stretches was doubled at a level comparable to what Shaq received on average but thats about it.

In general or on average against all opponents/playoff opponents especially if you compare their contending years Shaq was doubled way more often then Jordan was.

Part of that was because Shaq was considerably more unstoppable and efficient from the field and the other part was that as a post player he was much easier to double.

[B]These are irrefutable facts.[/B]

:facepalm