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I dig this comparison!! U could make a case for any of the three in this one. But if I had to choose, I think I would roll with GP. When u combine scoring, defense, and passing at the PG position, I think GP, Frazier, and CP3 are the best of all time. The key for me is GP's defensive versatility edge over CP3. And his scoring advantage on Kidd. But as I stated earlier, u can make a case for any of the three.
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]I don't know about that. They dominated the Lakers in that series. Even if Kobe plays considerably better...the Pistons still could have won.
You could do that with too many other teams. There are circumstances that lead to teams winning all the time.
One could make an argument along the lines above about the Kobe/Shaq Lakers not being an all time great duo. If the Blazers don't choke or have that idiot Dunleavy as coach and the 02 Kings series isn't a joke in game 6...the Lakers only have 1 ring and they aren't ATG.
I just don't buy stuff like that. Shit happens all the time and claiming that the Pistons would have lost to the Lakers is something you don't know...we also don't know they would have lost to the Heat, but even if that is for sure true, losing to the Heat with Wade/Shaq in a tight series isn't a knock on a team.
I certainly don't think they were the best team ever or anything, but they were better, once they got Rasheed, than you are giving them credit for.[/QUOTE]
:biggums:
What are you even arguing about now? I never ranked the teams place in history. All I said was that if Kobe actually put his ego aside, the Lakers would've beat the Pistons.
[QUOTE=aj1987]:biggums:
What are you even arguing about now? I never ranked the teams place in history. All I said was that if Kobe actually put his ego aside, the Lakers would've beat the Pistons.[/QUOTE]
And I disagree with that. It's not that simple.
What are you even arguing about?
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]And I disagree with that. It's not that simple.
What are you even arguing about?[/QUOTE]
You yourself aren't sure that the Pistons win if Kobe plays like Kobe.
I'm not arguing anything. I responded to tpols and you quoted me. :confusedshrug:
Jason Kidd is the greatest defensive PG of all time...that's a fact...not an opinion. Everybody should keep this in mind when they are ranking these three players.
[QUOTE=Smoke117]Jason Kidd is the greatest defensive PG of all time...that's a fact...not an opinion. Everybody should keep this in mind when they are ranking these three players.[/QUOTE]
While also being a total non threat from >5ft for 85% of his career.
[QUOTE=aj1987]You yourself aren't sure that the Pistons win if Kobe plays like Kobe.
I'm not arguing anything. I responded to tpols and you quoted me. :confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]
I'm saying that your statement of "if Kobe plays like himself" and if "Wade doesn't get hurt" the Pistons lose both series...is not a for sure thing...even in a hypothetical.
I'd actually lean towards the Pistons still winning that series...and I'd lean towards the Heat winning that series, but neither of us know and it's not an obvious answer regardless.
And that leads into our disagreement about how good those 04 and 05 Pistons teams were.
You think beating the Lakers and then taking perhaps the best Spurs team ever to the brink is somehow indicative of them not being an ATG team because they might have lost to a Wade/Shaq Heat team. I don't see it that way.
For one, we'd have to define what an ATG team actually is. And two, I don't think you give them enough credit for how good they got once Rasheed got there.
Those are our differences.
kidd>>>cp3>>>payton
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]I'm saying that your statement of "if Kobe plays like himself" and if "Wade doesn't get hurt" the Pistons lose both series...is not a for sure thing...even in a hypothetical.
I'd actually lean towards the Pistons still winning that series...and I'd lean towards the Heat winning that series, but neither of us know and it's not an obvious answer regardless.
And that leads into our disagreement about how good those 04 and 05 Pistons teams were.
You think beating the Lakers and then taking perhaps the best Spurs team ever to the brink is somehow indicative of them not being an ATG team because they might have lost to a Wade/Shaq Heat team. I don't see it that way.
For one, we'd have to define what an ATG team actually is. And two, I don't think you give them enough credit for how good they got once Rasheed got there.
Those are our differences.[/QUOTE]
It's often hard for people to accept a team is truly great without a player who "did it all". And to be honest, I don't blame anyone for that. There are very few teams who didn't have a clear go to guy who won at the college level, let alone the nba level. That go to person is generally critical. Even now I have to think about where I'd put that pistons team just because I'm not sure they ever had the guy who could turn that corner and make magic happen and other all time great teams did.
Sorry you two can go back to the debate, but your discussion made me realize how I naturally look for a go to guy on most teams when i think of an all time team.
[QUOTE=Smoke117]Jason Kidd is the greatest defensive PG of all time...that's a fact...not an opinion. Everybody should keep this in mind when they are ranking these three players.[/QUOTE]
Man, I've read this 4 times now and I keep wondering if I agree or not. Payton being the clear "but he was better" choice, but he was better in ways but not all ways. Kidd was just physically brutal. His legacy perhaps got hurt because of a few bogus and awful defensive team selections once he was pass his prime, but between his hands and size and strength....I hate to say but you might be right (that it's a fact that isn't open for debate).
[QUOTE=houston]kidd>>>cp3>>>payton[/QUOTE]
This .
[QUOTE=dhsilv]It's often hard for people to accept a team is truly great without a player who "did it all". And to be honest, I don't blame anyone for that. There are very few teams who didn't have a clear go to guy who won at the college level, let alone the nba level. That go to person is generally critical. Even now I have to think about where I'd put that pistons team just because I'm not sure they ever had the guy who could turn that corner and make magic happen and other all time great teams did.
Sorry you two can go back to the debate, but your discussion made me realize how I naturally look for a go to guy on most teams when i think of an all time team.[/QUOTE]
I agree. Having an elite championship first option is almost always needed.
I'm not arguing the Pistons were the best team ever or something though...just that they were on par with some great teams. Where they ultimately rank in 04 and 05 historically is up for debate, but they weren't some fluke team that would be just for sure beaten if Kobe had played better.
People forget that Kobe was magnificent in game 2...and it still took OT for the Lakers to win.
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]I agree. Having an elite championship first option is almost always needed.
I'm not arguing the Pistons were the best team ever or something though...just that they were on par with some great teams. Where they ultimately rank in 04 and 05 historically is up for debate, but they weren't some fluke team that would be just for sure beaten if Kobe had played better.
People forget that Kobe was magnificent in game 2...and it still took OT for the Lakers to win.[/QUOTE]
What's sad is that people don't seem to give Prince credit. There have been some guys who weren't all stars who just had moments in their careers and they deserve some damn credit. Prince was truly spectacular in that series. Another forgotten name is Tyron Lue who sure didn't beat the 76ers, but I think AI gets anther game or TWO if Lue doesn't come out of nowhere to be the iverson stopper that year. What did he do after that series? Devin Harris has some epic games against Tony Parker, not Harris had a decent career, but his work on Parker put him on the map and nothing else he did lived up imo. There are a lot of examples of guys just being a touch match up for great players and these players can just turn a playoff series.
Only with certain players are the defenders ignored and suddenly it was "he just didn't play well".
[QUOTE=dhsilv]What's sad is that people don't seem to give Prince credit. There have been some guys who weren't all stars who just had moments in their careers and they deserve some damn credit. Prince was truly spectacular in that series. Another forgotten name is Tyron Lue who sure didn't beat the 76ers, but I think AI gets anther game or TWO if Lue doesn't come out of nowhere to be the iverson stopper that year. What did he do after that series? Devin Harris has some epic games against Tony Parker, not Harris had a decent career, but his work on Parker put him on the map and nothing else he did lived up imo. There are a lot of examples of guys just being a touch match up for great players and these players can just turn a playoff series.
Only with certain players are the defenders ignored and suddenly it was "he just didn't play well".[/QUOTE]
Not gonna lie. When I saw this happen as it happened my jaw dropped:
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GD8feepwrE[/url]
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]I'm saying that your statement of "if Kobe plays like himself" and if "Wade doesn't get hurt" the Pistons lose both series...is not a for sure thing...even in a hypothetical.
I'd actually lean towards the Pistons still winning that series...and I'd lean towards the Heat winning that series, but neither of us know and it's not an obvious answer regardless.
And that leads into our disagreement about how good those 04 and 05 Pistons teams were.
You think beating the Lakers and then taking perhaps the best Spurs team ever to the brink is somehow indicative of them not being an ATG team because they might have lost to a Wade/Shaq Heat team. I don't see it that way.
For one, we'd have to define what an ATG team actually is. And two, I don't think you give them enough credit for how good they got once Rasheed got there.
Those are our differences.[/QUOTE]
Why do you keep bringing up Sheed? I probably know more about those Pistons teams than you. Again, [B][I]IF[/I][/B] Kobe puts his ego aside and plays like Kobe, they win in '04. I know you hate Kobe and it's hard to accept the alternative, but that's what it is.
The Heat were up 3-2 against the Pistons and Wade was absolutely going in raw before his injury. Anyone who was actually watching basketball in '05 would bet their houses on the Heat, if Wade was healthy. Lets not pretend that Wade's injury wasn't the reason as to why the Pistons ended up in the Finals. IIRC, Wade was averaging close to 30/5/7 in the games he wasn't injured.
For the whateverth time, the Pistons were an ATG defensive team, but they weren't an ATG team.