Remember when 34-35 year old MJ was more dominant than 2000 Shaq?

[QUOTE=ClipperRevival]

[COLOR="Blue"]Dean Oliver (creator of TS and ORtg stat):[/COLOR]

[INDENT]"Though [Shaquille O'Neal] may have a high floor percentage," Oliver writes, "his poor foul shooting means that he has a lot of one-point possessions, bringing his offensive rating down a bit."[/INDENT]

[/QUOTE]
Your quote of Dean Oliver is useless - he isn't saying ORtg or TS shouldn't be used to measure Shaq's shooting efficiency.

He's explaining WHY these stats are lower for Shaq and other players, even though they make a high percentage of FG's - it's because they can't shoot FT's.


[QUOTE=ClipperRevival]

But some of your stats are misleading. Like TS%. [B][COLOR="Red"]That is pointless for a guy like Shaq because his bad FT% lowers his TS% tremendously.[/COLOR][/B] Shaq made 58% of his shots on 21.1 attempts per game in 2000. That is tremendous efficiency. It's not like a D. Jordan or T. Chandler taking 5-8 shots a game.

[/QUOTE]
Are you serious or trolling?... why wouldn't we consider FT shooting?

That's one of the most biased and nonsensical things I've ever read on ISH, especially since it's common knowledge how much Shaq's FT shooting HURT the Lakers, and since FT shooting is one of the most important aspects of the game.

I'm amazed you're preaching that bullshit.

FT shooting COUNTS, bruh... And it makes Shaq's shooting efficiency NOT goat, and not even better than old MJ's... Their TS% was nearly the same, and Jordan's ORtg was higher.


[QUOTE=ClipperRevival]

[B][COLOR="Red"]A fair stat is PER:[/COLOR][/B]

Shaq 2000:

RS: 30.6
PO: 30.5[

MJ 1997 and 1998

RS: 26.5
PO: 27.6

[/QUOTE]
PER includes many things besides shooting efficiency.. The fair stat [B]for shooting efficiency[/B] is true shooting percentage or points-produced per possession (ORtg).

But if you prefer to use "[I][B]fair stats[/B][/I]" like PER, then here's another "[I]fair[/I]" stat - [I][B]win shares[/B][/I]:

[I][COLOR="Navy"]Jordan WS/48 in 97' & 98' playoffs[/COLOR][/I]: 0.260
[I][COLOR="DarkRed"]Shaquille [COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR]WS/48 in 2000 playoffs[/COLOR][/I]: 0.224


[QUOTE=ClipperRevival]

I see your points. I'm not here to argue against you.. And I already conceded that MJ was more clutch, carried a larger offensive load and provided more scoring when it mattered most. Those are huge concessions.

[B][COLOR="Red"]but I disagree that it "wasn't close." It certainly was.[/COLOR][/B]

[/quote]
[COLOR="White"].....[/COLOR][B][COLOR="Blue"]You must be just looking at RS - look at the playoffs - it ISN'T close:[/COLOR][/B]


[COLOR="White"]........[/COLOR][COLOR="darkRed"][SIZE="2"][I]Percentages of team points + assists while player was on floor[/I][/SIZE][/COLOR]


[COLOR="White"]....................[/COLOR][COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR] [B]PO[/B][COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR][B]PO 4th[/B][COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR][B]Finals[/B][COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] [B]Finals 4th[/B]


[I][B]JORDAN 1997[/B][/I]... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs]64.0[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]84.5[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]73.6[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4]91.1[/url]
[I][B]JORDAN 1998[/B][/I]... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs]59.4[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]76.5[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]58.3[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4]69.1[/url]


[I][B]SHAQ 2000[/B][/I]....... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs]49.3[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]55.4[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]48.7[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4]64.5[/url]
[I][B]SHAQ 2001[/B][/I]....... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs]49.4[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]54.9[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]57.4[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4]59.5[/url]
[I][B]SHAQ 2002[/B][/I]....... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs]49.5[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]44.6[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]55.5[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]54.9[/url]


[B][COLOR="Blue"]That...... isn't...... close.... MJ was far more dominant offensively[/COLOR][/B].
.

[QUOTE=3ball]I suck [COLOR="Black"]c[/COLOR]ock on a regular basis.[/QUOTE]
Still wish that your mom swallowed you, bro. At the least, she could've spit you out. :cheers:

[QUOTE=3ball]Your quote of Dean Oliver is useless - he isn't saying ORtg or TS shouldn't be used to measure Shaq's shooting efficiency.

He's explaining WHY these stats are lower for Shaq and other players, even though they make a high percentage of FG's - it's because they can't shoot FT's.



Are you serious or trolling?... why wouldn't we consider FT shooting?

That's one of the most biased and nonsensical things I've ever read on ISH, especially since it's common knowledge how much Shaq's FT shooting HURT the Lakers, and since FT shooting is one of the most important aspects of the game.

I'm amazed you're preaching that bullshit.

FT shooting COUNTS, bruh... And it makes Shaq's shooting efficiency NOT goat, and not even better than old MJ's... Their TS% was nearly the same, and Jordan's ORtg was higher.



PER includes many things besides shooting efficiency.. The fair stat [B]for shooting efficiency[/B] is true shooting percentage or points-produced per possession (ORtg).

But if you prefer to use "[I][B]fair stats[/B][/I]" like PER, then here's another "[I]fair[/I]" stat - [I][B]win shares[/B][/I]:

[I][COLOR="Navy"]Jordan WS/48 in 97' & 98' playoffs[/COLOR][/I]: 0.260
[I][COLOR="DarkRed"]Shaquille [COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR]WS/48 in 2000 playoffs[/COLOR][/I]: 0.224



[COLOR="White"].....[/COLOR][B][COLOR="Blue"]You must be just looking at RS - look at the playoffs - it ISN'T close:[/COLOR][/B]


[COLOR="White"]........[/COLOR][COLOR="darkRed"][SIZE="2"][I]Percentages of team points + assists while player was on floor[/I][/SIZE][/COLOR]


[COLOR="White"]....................[/COLOR][COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR] [B]PO[/B][COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR][B]PO 4th[/B][COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR][B]Finals[/B][COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] [B]Finals 4th[/B]


[I][B]JORDAN 1997[/B][/I]... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs]64.0[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]84.5[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]73.6[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4]91.1[/url]
[I][B]JORDAN 1998[/B][/I]... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs]59.4[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]76.5[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]58.3[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4]69.1[/url]


[I][B]SHAQ 2000[/B][/I]....... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs]49.3[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]55.4[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]48.7[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4]64.5[/url]
[I][B]SHAQ 2001[/B][/I]....... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs]49.4[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]54.9[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]57.4[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4]59.5[/url]
[I][B]SHAQ 2002[/B][/I]....... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs]49.5[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]44.6[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]55.5[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]54.9[/url]


[B][COLOR="Blue"]That...... isn't...... close.... MJ was far more dominant offensively[/COLOR][/B].
.[/QUOTE]

I know you are set in your ways and won't budge so i'll say this. Yes, FTs do matter but I would rather take a dominant force like Shaq who hits 50% FT than an average big who hits 70% FTs. Nothing is more impactful than actual in-game action and what you do in it. Shaq hit 58% of his shots from the field on 21.1 attempts per game in 2000. Not to mention the huge amount of attention he attracted to free up other people.

And yeah, PER measures OVERALL efficiency, which is advantage Shaq. You didn't specify in your title that it was just about offense.

[QUOTE=ClipperRevival]I know you are set in your ways and won't budge so i'll say this. Yes, FTs do matter but I would rather take a dominant force like Shaq who hits 50% FT than an average big who hits 70% FTs. Nothing is more impactful than actual in-game action and what you do in it. Shaq hit 58% of his shots from the field on 21.1 attempts per game in 2000. Not to mention the huge amount of attention he attracted to free up other people.

And yeah, PER measures OVERALL efficiency, which is advantage Shaq. You didn't specify in your title that it was just about offense.[/QUOTE]
Also, if you actually factor in clutch FT shooting, Shaq was amazing. Dude hit his FT's when they mattered. I still remember G3 in '06. Dude hit clutch AF FT's. Probably the most clutch FT's in Heat's history.

[QUOTE=aj1987]Still wish that your mom swallowed you, bro. At the least, she could've spit you out. :cheers:[/QUOTE]

Three times you posted this. That's the beauty of the internet. Being stupid is cool as long as no one really knows who you are. :facepalm

[QUOTE=Da_Realist]Three times you posted this. That's the beauty of the internet. Being stupid is cool as long as no one really knows who you are. :facepalm[/QUOTE]
I would say it to his face. :confusedshrug:

You're an MJ stan as well, but I know that you're one of the more rational ones. Read his posts and tell me that his arbitrary stats, which he made up, make any sense. Please do. Dude is delusional AF and definitely needs mental help. Look up his post history, FFS.

[QUOTE=Da_Realist]Three times you posted this. That's the beauty of the internet. Being stupid is cool as long as no one really knows who you are. :facepalm[/QUOTE]


Correct . Someone did this in real life it's over in hospital or police station . Nobody shouldn't love or adopt others ideas . But everybody must respect every person .

Back to thread ,

Shaq and 98 Jordan had around same offensive impacts . Shaq had huge rebounding margin too(don't underestimate rebounding) . And Shaq had better defensive impact .

Jordan was far more clutch in anytime of his career than Shaq for sure .

Curry > Jordan.

MUCH higher offensive impact. It's like comparing a Siberian tiger to a bear.

[QUOTE=24-Inch_Chrome]Curry > Jordan.

MUCH higher offensive impact. It's like comparing a Siberian tiger to a bear.[/QUOTE]
Agreed. And MJ's defensive edge isn't as big as many people say. Pippen helped cover MJ's defensive liabilities. :D

[QUOTE=ClipperRevival]

Yes, FTs do matter but I would rather take a dominant force like Shaq who hits 50% FT than an average big who hits 70% FTs. Nothing is more impactful than actual in-game action and what you do in it.

I know you are [B][COLOR="Red"]set in your ways[/COLOR][/B] and won't budge

[/quote]
[B][COLOR="navy"]Set in "MY" ways?

That's EVERYBODY'S ways... FT shooting is one of the most important aspects of basketball and efficiency - this isn't "my" way - it's basketball.

Shaq is the guy that started hack-a-Shaq... You know that right?... His FT shooting was a massive drag on his team.. It's a good thing he had Kobe to take over in the 4th quarter:[/COLOR][/B]


[COLOR="White"]......[/COLOR][COLOR="Red"][SIZE="2"][I]Percentage of team points scored while player was on floor[/I][/SIZE][/COLOR]


[COLOR="White"]......................[/COLOR][B]PO 4th[/B][COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR][B]Finals 4th[/B]

[I][B]SHAQ 2001[/B][/I]....... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]34.0[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4]26.2[/url]
[I][B]SHAQ 2002[/B][/I]....... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]25.7[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]28.2[/url]

[I][B]KOBE 2001[/B][/I]....... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]37.0[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4]23.7[/url]
[I][B]KOBE 2002[/B][/I]....... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]34.0[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4]32.4[/url]


[B][COLOR="navy"]Seriously - you should disavow yourself of the notion that FT's somehow shouldn't be considered when evaluating Shaq's efficiency - it's absurd.[/COLOR][/B]


[QUOTE=ClipperRevival]

[B][COLOR="DarkRed"]Shaq hit 58% of his shots from the field[/COLOR][/B] on 21.1 attempts per game in 2000. Not to mention the [B][COLOR="DarkRed"]huge amount of attention he attracted[/COLOR][/B] to free up other people.

[/QUOTE]
But that efficiency was dragged down by his WOAT free throw shooting.

And Shaq attracted attention, but not like MJ - MJ scored a higher proportion of his team's points, so defenses had more reason to be wary of him, especially since his #2 wasn't as good as Shaq's #2.


[QUOTE=ClipperRevival]

And yeah, PER measures OVERALL efficiency, which is advantage Shaq.

[/QUOTE]
And win shares is a measure of how much a player contributes to his team's wins... Advantage old MJ over prime Shaq.


[QUOTE=ClipperRevival]

You didn't specify in your title that it was just about offense.

[/QUOTE]
When comparing a center and a guard, it makes no sense to consider defensive impact - if we give extra credit to Shaq's naturally greater defensive impact at center, that assumes the Bulls didn't have a center AT ALL.. But they did have a center.

The Bulls had a center that could offset Shaq's impact, while the Lakers had a SG that could offset Jordan's - in this case, Longley offset Shaq in the boxscore far more than Kobe offset Jordan, which illustrates the point pretty well (as shown below).

That's why the defensive end should generally be considered a wash when comparing an ATG center to an ATG guard - if anything, the edge should to to the player who was better relative to the peers at their position, which would be MJ (best defensive SG in the league, 9 first-team defense.... compared to Shaq's 3 second teams in 17 years, no first teams).


[I][COLOR="Navy"]LONGLEY DBPM and DRTG[/COLOR][/I]: 1.7.. 102
[I][COLOR="Navy"]O'NEAL[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] DBPM and DRTG[/COLOR][/I]: 1.6.. 101

[COLOR="DarkRed"][B]Longley offset what Shaq did defensively far more than Kobe offset Jordan:[/B][/COLOR]

[I][COLOR="Navy"]JORDAN DBPM and DRTG[/COLOR][/I]: 1.1, 103
[I][COLOR="Navy"]KOBE[COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR] DBPM and DRTG[/COLOR][/I]: [COLOR="Red"]-0.5[/COLOR], 105


Btw, unlike jordan, shaq wouldn't be a good defender in THIS era, where big men don't stand in the paint on defense like they used to - shaq's big ass taking up space was the #1 reason he had a decent impact defensively (imo)... the times he managed to shuffle his feet defensively were infrequent because he didn't have to come out on the perimeter often like today's bigs do, and he wasn't as good on the perimeter as say, Hakeem or Robinson.
.

^ So what you are saying is: MJ had not only the help of Pippen, but an underappreciated and quietly dominant Luc Longley. Man, I never knew MJ had such a stacked team.

[QUOTE=Yoshi]

^ So what you are saying is: MJ had not only the help of Pippen, but an underappreciated and quietly dominant Luc Longley. Man, I never knew MJ had such a stacked team.

[/QUOTE]
The interesting thing about championship teams is that nearly ALL of them are great defensive teams.

Therefore, when comparing the supporting cast of two #1 options who led championship squads, the defensive side of the ball can be ignored - it's simply wash for nearly all championship teams.

On a somewhat unrelated note, regarding the defensive side of the ball for the Bulls - the Bulls' DRtg in 1994 (6th) wasn't any better relative to the league than the first 3-peat (7th, 4th, 7th).. Accordingly, the massive decline from 3-peat dynasty to 2nd Round team was due [I]entirely[/I] to the absence of MJ's [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12082990&postcount=185]goat offense[/url], which caused their ORtg to crater from #1 all-time (during the 3-peat) to 14th in the league in 1994.
.

[QUOTE=Yoshi]Agreed. And MJ's defensive edge isn't as big as many people say. Pippen helped cover MJ's defensive liabilities. :D[/QUOTE]
Take Pippen off of the Bulls and Jordan goes 0/6...assuming he even manages to make the finals.

[QUOTE=3ball]The interesting thing about championship teams is that nearly ALL of them are great defensive teams.

Therefore, when comparing the supporting cast of two #1 options who led championship squads, the defensive side of the ball can be ignored - it's simply wash for nearly all championship teams.

On a somewhat unrelated note, the defensive side of the ball had little to do with the Bulls fall to 3-peat champs to 2nd Round in 1994: the Bulls' DRtg in 1994 (6th) wasn't any better relative to the league than the first 3-peat (7th, 4th, 7th).. Accordingly, [B][/B][url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12082990&postcount=185]goat offense[/url], which caused their ORtg tothe massive decline from 3-peat dynasty to 2nd Round team was due entirely to the absence of MJ's crater from #1 all-time to 14th in the league.
.[/QUOTE]


I always get a kick out of this "massive decline"...

First of all, the Bulls were one completely blown call away from winning that second round series, 4-2. ONE BAD CALL.

Secondly, they nearly won that series with PETE MYERS and his 6 ppg average in that series.

Third...just the year before, the Bulls, with Jordan, struggled to beat that same Knick team, 4-2. And the year before that, it was 4-3.

Yep..."massive decline" alright...

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]

Bulls were 3-peat champs with MJ and 2nd Round team without.

and were one play away from going down 0-3 and being swept... Thank god for Kukoc miracle to save some face before Pippen choked again in Game 5

[/QUOTE]
:applause: