Tim Duncan is greater than Shaq, and here are the numbers to PROVE it

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Here are Tim Duncan and Shaq's career numbers and accomplishments

Lets take it to the scorecard as it stands right NOW:

titles: Shaq 4, Duncan 3
finals mvps: Shaq 3, duncan 3
season mvps: Shaq 1, Duncan 2
1st team all nba: Shaq 7, Duncan 9
1st team all defense: Shaq 0, Duncan 7 (Shaq only has 3 2nd team all defense!)
Shaq career: 25.9ppg, 11.6 rpg, 2.8apg, 2.8bpg
Duncan Career: 21.8 ppg, 11.9rpg, 3.2apg, 2.4bpg

Now lets discuss the obvious. Shaq has been in the league 5 more years than Duncan, but only has one more title, both even in finals mvps, Duncan with one more season mvp at 2-1. Here is where it gets shocking: Shaq has been in the league over 14+ years, but only 7 first team all nba elections? That a mere 50%! Also, Shaq has never, not even once been voted first team all defense- with only 3, count it 3 total 2ND TEAM all defense selections! Wow! He's a bigger defensive liability than Steve Nash! Even with all this "dominant" scoring, career wise he leads Duncan by only four points in career average! It is obvious that all you who swear by Shaq's dominance have been utterly duped!

Anyone please look at these numbers and prove Shaq is better than Duncan! According to their career numbers and stats, Duncan is already ahead of Shaq, and its not even close! One more title and finals mvp will simply be icing on the cake.

shaq's career average in points, despite the fact that his numbers have slipped dramatically as he's gotten older, is still higher than duncan's best season average. that means that the best duncan ever managed to do as an offensive weapon was an average season for shaq.

and that pretty much sums them up. duncan's been basically the same high level plateau player since he came into the league. shaq has had a definite peak and definite valleys. shaq's peak towered over duncan's consistant line. shaq's valley's plummet below duncan's consistant line, but overall he still has better numbers, more titles, a better head to head record, and a better head to head average. explain to me again how it's a cut and dry argument for duncan and anyone who believes otherwise is being duped.

your whole argument seems to hinge on awards that have been handed to duncan and the fact that duncan gets to make defensive teams and all-nba teams as a 4 instead of a five. if he had to compete against ben wallace, dikembe mutumbo, and alonzo mourning at the 5 spot (as he would if he'd been drafted by a team that didn't feature one of the ten best centers ever), his all-d teams would shrink. if he had to beat out shaq to make the all-nba 1st team, those would shrink too.

i'm not saying it's definitively shaq over duncan, just that your pro-duncan agenda is clouding your argument and causing you to skew all of your facts in duncan's favor and ignore things like duncan's best scoring season being 5 points lower than shaq's. shaq's peak blocks were better. his top rebounds were better. aren't those the stats that measure a big man? so shaq had better stats and won more... again, i fail to see duncan's insurmountable argument.

and just so you know, i'm not a shaq fan. i haven't liked shaq since he ditched an orlando team that was set to become a dynasty in order to make kazaam.

^ hurts my eyes to look at that post.

Ridonks posted that Duncan had the advantage of playing when the small forward postion was so weak that two PF would make it into the First team.

Now, if we were really only allowed to choose one PF for the First Team, that would make things interesting, I believe it would show that Garnett would be All D first team, Duncan 2nd team.

Also align that with the All NBA selections, and suddenly poets argument is in tatters.

That being said, its common knowledge that Shaq has Legend status, Duncan as great as he is, doesn't hold that greatness status, hard to explain, but its there.

[QUOTE=zebraheat]Ridonks posted that Duncan had the advantage of playing when the small forward postion was so weak that two PF would make it into the First team.

Now, if we were really only allowed to choose one PF for the First Team, that would make things interesting, I believe it would show that Garnett would be All D first team, Duncan 2nd team.

Also align that with the All NBA selections, and suddenly poets argument is in tatters.

That being said, its common knowledge that Shaq has Legend status, Duncan as great as he is, doesn't hold that greatness status, hard to explain, but its there.[/QUOTE]

Wow this thread came back to life!

First I think Timmy would still get All-Defensive first honors, for the same reason Dirk won MVP. Also, Duncan's legend status is actually there because he is widley considered the best PF to ever play the game, which means that he'll be the measuring stick for years to come.

[QUOTE=bleedinpurple]^ hurts my eyes to look at that post.[/QUOTE]

Yeah dude seriously, dejordan would it hurt to use the enter key every onece in a while?

[quote]no, tim duncan is not greater than shaq, but he will be if he leads his team to another championship.[/quote]
that is perhaps the dumbest statement I've ever seen.

[QUOTE=dejordan]so, just out of curiosity, would you rank a guy like walton over ewing / robinson / etc because his mvp season was so outstanding (according to all the old-timers he was head and shoulders above the competition that year)?[/QUOTE]
I rank Walton over Ewing because he was better. Period.

[QUOTE=Timmy D for MVP]Yeah dude seriously, dejordan would it hurt to use the enter key every onece in a while?[/QUOTE]
i didn't know what he was talking about. i'll edit so nobody needs an aspirin. :D

[QUOTE=dejordan]i didn't know what he was talking about. i'll edit so nobody needs an aspirin. :D[/QUOTE]

:applause:

Much better man, way easier to read.

something cool and enjoyable...

[URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUHBOMGbS-4&mode=related&search="]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUHBOMGbS-4&mode=related&search=[/URL]

Okay I didn't want to quote dejordan, because he likes to write novels, but I will say this, a re-occuring theme in that argument is the Shaq's peak numbers out shine Duncan's. And that's true, but Duncan's consitency is part of what makes him great. I mean he has what? Like 8-9 years left in him (barring serious injury I really think he can go that long). Imagine if he stays pretty consistent which he can do I believe. The fact that ever since he arrived, SAS has been in title contention speaks volumes about what this man can do.

[QUOTE=Timmy D for MVP]Okay I didn't want to quote dejordan, because he likes to write novels, but I will say this, a re-occuring theme in that argument is the Shaq's peak numbers out shine Duncan's. And that's true, but Duncan's consitency is part of what makes him great. I mean he has what? Like 8-9 years left in him (barring serious injury I really think he can go that long). Imagine if he stays pretty consistent which he can do I believe. The fact that ever since he arrived, SAS has been in title contention speaks volumes about what this man can do.[/QUOTE]
i think that's a good point. i also think you can argue that duncan never gets benched at the end of games because you can take him away from the rim and let him hit clutch js instead of worrying about him at the line. duncan has an argument. i just thought the thread starter was ignoring shaq's argument and it needed to be stated again. defensive versatility, clutch performance, and consistancy vs. total stats & total titles. definitely debatable imo, though for those of you who remember shaq circa 2001, the images of him annihilating dikembe in the finals are pretty hard to shake.

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