Checkmate Atheists!

[QUOTE=K Xerxes]Sheep come in two forms. They either know little about their religion and follow it simply because they were indoctrinated to believe in it. Or they have researched their religion, but under some confirmation bias-tinted glasses, and accrue a lot of knowledge all under the assumption that it's true anyway.

The only way to truly be a believer, in my opinion, is to step back and assume a position of extreme doubt. Critically analyse a belief system and if you still conclude it to be true, then fair enough. It is impossible to be completely objective, but the more distance you place between the religion and yourself initially, the stronger and more convincing your belief will be. It just so happens that [b]I analysed Islam (and christianity) as a teen and found it to be nonsense.[/b][/QUOTE]
fair points; i understand.

although i would generally not recommend having one's teenage self make life-long decisions on one's behalf. they're not exactly the most well-rounded of individuals, after all.

[I][I]Whatever P Tiddy believes, I believe the opposite.

Can somebody tell me what tiddy's arguing so I can know what my beli[/I]efs are?[/I]

[QUOTE=KiiiiNG][I][I]Whatever P Tiddy believes, I believe the opposite.

Can somebody tell me what tiddy's arguing so I can know what my beli[/I]efs are?[/I][/QUOTE]
I'm arguing that atheism and agnosticism are two different things.

Which means you believe they are the same.

You're wrong

[QUOTE=KiiiiNG][I][I]Whatever P Tiddy believes, I believe the opposite.

Can somebody tell me what tiddy's arguing so I can know what my beli[/I]efs are?[/I][/QUOTE]
[I]Welcome to my award winning hit new thread, grab yourself a beverage from the snackbar and enjoy the show![/I]

[QUOTE=~primetime~]If you don't know, you're an agnostic, not an atheist

Atheists claim there is no creator, that space, time, light, matter, etc just came to exist from nothing.[/QUOTE]

That's not true. Atheist believes there is no god. That's that. That has nothing to do with cosmology.

You can say that you don't believe in any gods, and at the same time say that you don't know how the universe came into being. But if you were say that nothing breeds nothing. So, it has to be something to create it. Then who created the creator? The creator could be external, but you'll end up with a endless loop of a philosophical question that we either could never understand or yet to.

You could even say that there is literally no such thing as nothing. There's always something. Even in space, where there is a vaccum, there are photons, electromagnetic radiation, cosmic background radiation, dark matter, energy, dark energy, higgs boson, antiparticles, virtual particles that pop out every now and then. Everything is constantly moving down to the quarks that make up the sub atomic particles that would make up elements that we need to survive.

We still have a lot to learn about the universe. No one has the complete answers, but explanation. A while back, it appeared that virtual particles appear out of nothing. They appear and disappear out of existence all the time. But in actuality they don't...not really. It depends on the value of energy and the field. With the uncertainty principle, a mass of a 9.11x10^^-31 Kg can appear in existence for about 3.22x10^^-22 secs or less.

We don't know if there is literally nothing. We don't know there is a creator. We do have evidence that the universe wasn't always like this and it's constantly expanding. But expanding into what? You'll get answers that the universe is all there is, and it doesn't need anything to expand into. It's just expanding. If there is something out there to expand into, it would part of the universe. It's a unsatisfying answer, but it could be the truth. Who knows.

There shouldn't be any shame in saying "I don't know" to something as complicated as cosmology. It's being honest and humble. But you can say that you don't believe in any gods. There are some gods who don't even deal with cosmology. Those two are mutually exclusive.

[QUOTE=Micku]That's not true. Atheist believes there is no god. That's that. That has nothing to do with cosmology.

You can say that you don't believe in any gods, and at the same time say that you don't know how the universe came into being. But if you were say that nothing breeds nothing. So, it has to be something to create it. Then who created the creator? The creator could be external, but you'll end up with a endless loop of a philosophical question that we either could never understand or yet to.

You could even say that there is literally no such thing as nothing. There's always something. Even in space, where there is a vaccum, there are photons, electromagnetic radiation, cosmic background radiation, dark matter, energy, dark energy, higgs boson, antiparticles, virtual particles that pop out every now and then. Everything is constantly moving down to the quarks that make up the sub atomic particles that would make up elements that we need to survive.

We still have a lot to learn about the universe. No one has the complete answers, but explanation. A while back, it appeared that virtual particles appear out of nothing. They appear and disappear out of existence all the time. But in actuality they don't...not really. It depends on the value of energy and the field. With the uncertainty principle, a mass of a 9.11x10^^-31 Kg can appear in existence for about 3.22x10^^-22 secs or less.

We don't know if there is literally nothing. We don't know there is a creator. We do have evidence that the universe wasn't always like this and it's constantly expanding. But expanding into what? You'll get answers that the universe is all there is, and it doesn't need anything to expand into. It's just expanding. If there is something out there to expand into, it would part of the universe. It's a unsatisfying answer, but it could be the truth. Who knows.

There shouldn't be any shame in saying "I don't know" to something as complicated as cosmology. It's being honest and humble. But you can say that you don't believe in any gods. Those two are mutually exclusive.[/QUOTE]

I like this post and agree with the bulk of it, but I am not a fan of the "but who created the creator" line. If the higher power is found in some alternate dimension where the rules of science are nothing like our own, then explaining how that power came to be could be simple...in that reality, it's beyond our imagination.

I think absolutely everything in this universe, including life, can be explained with science EXCEPT for it start, the Big Bang.

I don't think a higher power has to be some perfect all knowing force that treats everyone as equal and fairly.

If we humans created self aware AI within a virtual 3D world, then that AI would think of us as "God". We are not perfect, and we wouldn't care to treat our AI creation fairly.

Our God(s) may be no different...maybe they created this 3D reality and separated the galaxies to study us in different environments. They may not care to treat us as equals and they may be flawed greatly .

@primetime,
is your argument about all that influenced by the recent science theory that our universe is a computer simulation?

either way, that theory is apparently gaining a good bit of traction in the academic world and has a lot of overlap with your argument and existentialism in general.



[quote]If the higher power is found in some alternate dimension where the rules of science are nothing like our own, then explaining how that power came to be could be simple...[b]in that reality, it's beyond our imagination[/b].[/quote]
that's a really smart way of looking at it IMO.

[QUOTE=gigantes]@primetime,
is your argument about all that influenced by the recent science theory that our universe is a computer simulation?

either way, that theory is apparently gaining a good bit of traction in the academic world and has a lot of overlap with your argument and existentialism in general.




that's a really smart way of looking at it IMO.[/QUOTE]
My thoughts in that post didn't come from that but I have read up on that, apparently there are similarities throughput the universe that are similar to the way computer programs work, it's fascinating stuff.


I have always felt that both atheists and theists believe that any "God" has to be some perfect flawless being, but that just isn't realistic . A higher power would just be something vastly intelligent compared to humans. Like we are to ants. Ants would view us as "God" but we are flawed as ****. Our higher power could easily be the same way. Intelligence that makes us look like insects in comparison, but highly flawed, and no thought given to treating us fairly.

[IMG]http://www.picshunger.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/believe1.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://timscogitorium.com/tinblog/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Einstein-on-God.jpg[/IMG]


Hold this eternal [SIZE="7"]L[/SIZE], atheists.

[IMG]https://quotesaga.s3.amazonaws.com/quote/QS_f96d818ee00742ca9619d4958ef30b57.jpg[/IMG]

[SIZE="7"][B]RIP [/B]ATHEISM [/SIZE]

[I]Agnostics disguised as atheists![/I]

[QUOTE=~primetime~][b]I have always felt that both atheists and theists believe that any "God" has to be some perfect flawless being, but that just isn't realistic.[/b] A higher power would just be something vastly intelligent compared to humans. Like we are to ants. Ants would view us as "God" but we are flawed as ****. Our higher power could easily be the same way. Intelligence that makes us look like insects in comparison, but highly flawed, and no thought given to treating us fairly.[/QUOTE]
it's pretty clear at this point that humans, like most other animals, are uncomfortable in the face of uncertainty. and the human brain being arguably the most complex of all animal brains on earth, is that much more uncomfortable... to the point of being easily terrified / neurotic at the vast complexity of the unknown.

at the risk of judging broad groups of ppl (seriously, who the f-ck am i to judge?), i think most people lack the humility and braveness to tackle being an agnostic... and therefore most people have more binary thinking about this stuff, tending to gravitate towards theism or atheism.

[QUOTE=JEFFERSON MONEY]A few moments ago, you literally, called Christianity and Islam "corrupted offshoots," and claimed that there is no Hell. Both statements false according to all 3 Scriptures.

The penalty for people who lie, and the people who follow those who lie are very, very, very harsh. Let's hope we're not categorized under them, man. And Allah knows best.
[url]http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1934&Itemid=93[/url]


[IMG]http://7768-presscdn-0-28.pagely.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/hell-fire-1.jpg[/IMG]


Hell is very, very, very real. Most people (includingmyself are in a spiritual slumber) and after death is as they become awake. I wouldn't wish Hell on my worst enemies, let alone strangers over the internet. People should be educated and learn about the Creator.. This website should serve as a much better place of learning than it currently is.



Now back in 622 AD, when Prophet Muhammad (PBUH), like all the Prophets before him (including [U]Moses[/U] (who said his troubles were with Moses), and Jesus) , were assigned to call people towards God. What were they met with? Prophets, who were specifically put on Earth as a mercy to help their people tread the path of providence to God, and compel them to do that which is ultimately good for them, had to deal with:

- Mockery

- Slander

- Character assassination
ex.
- People cracking jokes
ex.
- Attempts to poison his food
ex.
- More mockery
ex.
- Accusations of being "bewitched"
ex.

What are you and Kyrie doing, right now, Nick? It is a very evil thing to deny the Truth because it came out of the mouths of someone that's not part of your "tribe". That's the very definition of racism.

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History repeats itself in all ways. Now, I'm just a guy among you, nothing special about me. But I've been on the boards for 12 years and have grown quite fond of a large number of you. As if you're my brothers.

As brothers, we can agree we want what's best for each other, yes? For starters, let's [U][B]at least try to prevent each other from going down dark paths towards Hell, yeah?[/B][/U]

The first step is to know God
[url]https://d1.islamhouse.com/data/en/ih_books/single/en_Knowing_Allah_Purpose_of_Our_Existence_and_Our_End_Allah_Makes_All_That_Known_by_His_Words.pdf[/url]
[url]http://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-knowledge.html[/url]
[url]http://www.newadvent.org/summa/1014.htm[/url]
[url]http://thetorah.com/seeking-torah-god/[/url][/QUOTE]


The problem with this post is that you're doing the exact same thing that Nick Young and the rest of the Jews on here are doing. Everyone is assuming that their belief is correct and is almost dismissive of any any other suggestion otherwise.

You cannot quote Islamic religious scripture as proof to men who might not agree with you that he's a prophet of God.
This is tantamount to a Christian saying there is a limbo because the bible says so. Presuppositionalist approaches don't get us anywhere.

[QUOTE=Nick Young][IMG]http://www.picshunger.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/believe1.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://timscogitorium.com/tinblog/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Einstein-on-God.jpg[/IMG]


Hold this eternal [SIZE="7"]L[/SIZE], atheists.

[IMG]https://quotesaga.s3.amazonaws.com/quote/QS_f96d818ee00742ca9619d4958ef30b57.jpg[/IMG]

[SIZE="7"][B]RIP [/B]ATHEISM [/SIZE][/QUOTE]

Why would Isaac newton's opinion on religion matter? Or Einstein? They could be physics geniuses but they're entitled to their own view on ontology. And others might not agree.

[QUOTE]As a man who has devoted his whole life to the most clear headed science, to the study of matter, I can tell you as a result of my research about atoms this much: There is no matter as such. All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particle of an atom to vibration and holds this most minute solar system of the atom together. We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent mind. This mind is the matrix of all matter.


[/QUOTE]

Max Planck preceded quantum mechanics and wouldn't have had a clue what he's talking about when it comes to subatomic particles. Planck was clueless about wave particle duality and the quantization of electromagnetic waves' energy levels.
He was.a genius at his time and his constant is immensely important in the world of physics but this is a terrible quote to present. Max planck couldn't teach Niels Bhor, W. Heisenberg, Max Born or Albert Einstein the first thing about quarks, leptons, bosons or quantum mechanics.