Bill Simmons: "96 Bulls are not a top-10 All-time and are worse than the '01 Lakers"

[QUOTE=vert48]Did you ever see that Sixers team play?[/QUOTE]

Did you read what I wrote? I don't see how having possibly the [b]ideal[/b] defensive matchups at the Sixers' 4 biggest offensive positions isn't a huge advantage for Chicago in that hypothetical matchup. Again, I feel that Chicago would win a series vs. the '83 Sixers, but wouldn't be favored vs. the 80's Lakers/Celts (though they could win).

[B]Quick listing of the 11 "Greatest" Teams of All-Time (No order)[/B]
[url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11421[/url]

(1 Team per Franchise core)

[CENTER][B][SIZE="5"]
1967 Philadeplhia 76ers
[SIZE="3"]68-13[/SIZE][/SIZE][/B]
[IMG]http://www.sportsecyclopedia.com/nba/phil76/Wilt76.jpg[/IMG]

Players: Wilt Chamberlain (Top 10 Player of All-Time)...Hal Greet (Top 10 SG of All-Time)...Billy Cunningham (Top 10 SF of All-Time)...Chet Walker (7 Time All-Star)...Wali Jones (13ppg)...Luke Jackson (1 Time All-Star)...



[B][SIZE="5"]1986 Boston Celtics[/SIZE][/B]
[B][SIZE="3"]67-15
[/SIZE][/B]
[IMG]http://i.tsn.com/i/o/vault/nba/1986.jpg[/IMG]

Players: Larry Bird (GOAT SF), Kevin McHale (Top 10 PF of All-Time), Robert Parrish (HOF), Dennis Johnson (9 Time All-Defensive Selection), Danny Ainge (1 Time All-Star)



[B][SIZE="5"]1971 Milwaukee Bucks[/SIZE]
[SIZE="3"]66-16[/SIZE][/B]
[IMG]http://www.historycentral.com/Bio/people/images/abdul-jabbar.gif[/IMG]

[B]Players:[/B] Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (Top 10 Player of All-Time), Oscar Robertson (Top 10 Player of All-Time), Bod Dandrige (4 Time All-Star), Jim McGlocklin (1 Time All-Star)...



[B][SIZE="5"]2001 L.A. Lakers
[SIZE="3"]56-26[/SIZE]
[/SIZE][/B]
[IMG]http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/040529/040529_kobe_shaq_vmed.widec.jpg[/IMG]

[B]Players:[/B] Shaquille O'Neal (Top 10 Player of All-Time), Kobe Bryant (Top 10 SG of All-Time), Derek Fisher (Solid Roleplayer), Robert Horry (Mr. Clutch)...



[SIZE="5"][B]1983 Philadephia 76ers[/B][/SIZE]
[B][SIZE="3"]65-17[/SIZE][/B]
[IMG]http://www.sportsecyclopedia.com/nba/phil76/MosesPhl.jpg[/IMG]

Players: Moses Malone (Top 10 Center of All-Time), Julius Erving (Top 5 SF of All-Time), Bobby Jones (9 Time All-Defensive), Maurice Cheeks (5 Time All-Defensive), Andrew Toney (2 Time All-Star)...[/CENTER]

[center]
[B][SIZE="5"]1972 L.A. Lakers
[SIZE="3"]69-13[/SIZE]
[/SIZE][/B]
[IMG]http://www.nba.com/media/lakers/history_west_1972.jpg[/IMG]

[B]Players[/B]: Jerry West (Top 10 Player of All-Time)...Gail Goodrich (HOF)...Jim Mcmillan (19ppg)...Wilt Chamberlain (Top 10 Player of All-Time)...Happy Haristion (13ppg and 13rpg)...



[B][SIZE="5"]1989 Detroit Pistons
[SIZE="3"]63-19[/SIZE][/SIZE][/B]
[IMG]http://www.sportsecyclopedia.com/nba/detroit/isiahdet.jpg[/IMG]

[B]Players:[/B] Isiah Thomas (Top 5 PG of All-Time), Joe Dumars (HOF), Mark Agguire (3 Time All-Star), Vinnie Johnson (13ppg), Bill Laimbeer (4 Time All-Star), Dennis Rodman (8 Time All-Defensive)....


[B][SIZE="5"]
1965 Boston Celtics[/SIZE][/B]
[B][SIZE="3"]62-18[/SIZE][/B]
[IMG]http://www.sportsecyclopedia.com/nba/boston/RussellBOs2.jpg[/IMG]

[B]Players:[/B] Bill Russell (Top 10 Player of All-Time), Sam Jones (HOF), John Havlicek (Top 5 SF of All-Time), Tom Heinosohn (HOF), KC Jones (HOF), Tom Sanders (Defensive Stopper)...Willie Naules (4 Time All-Star)...


[B]
[SIZE="5"]1996 Chicago Bulls[/SIZE]
[SIZE="3"]72-10[/SIZE]
[/B]
[IMG]http://www.nba.com/media/bulls/jordan_050819.jpg[/IMG]

[B]Players:[/B] Michael Jordan (GOAT), Scottie Pippen (Top 5 SF of All-Time), Dennis Rodman (8 Time All-Defensive), Toni Kukoc (13ppg), Ron Harper (Defensive Stopper)...



[B][SIZE="5"]1970 New York Knicks[/SIZE]
[SIZE="3"]60-22[/SIZE][/B]
[IMG]http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/events/1998/playoffs/moments_gallery/images/reed.jpg[/IMG]

[B]Players:[/B] Willis Reed (HOF), Walt Frazier (Top 10 PG of All-Time), Dave DebBusschere (6 Time All-Defensive 1st), D!ck Barnett (1 Time All-Star), Bill Bradley (1 Time All-Star)...


[B]
[SIZE="5"]1987 L.A. Lakers[/SIZE]
[SIZE="3"]65-17[/SIZE][/B]
[IMG]http://www.sportsecyclopedia.com/nba/lala/KareemLA2.jpg[/IMG]

[B]Players:[/B] Magic Johnson (GOAT PG)...Kareem Abdul-Abdul Jabbar (Top 5 Center of All-Time)...James Worthy (HOF)...Byron Scott (17ppg)...Michael Cooper (8 Time All-Defensive Selection)...



[/CENTER]

Now with that said.

The teams up there that could give the Bulls some problems are:


67 Sixers
71 Bucks
01 Lakers

All 3 of them had a dominating force inside. So did the 86 Celtics kind of, and 72 Lakers, but none like the 3 up there...


With that said, the Bulls might beat all of them, but you can make a case with basically any of those 11 listed as being the GOAT

Personally I think Kobe's playoff performances have actually regressed since 2001.

In the 01-02, he averaged his second or third highest point total for playoffs, but playoff highs for rebounds and assists to go with it, and his second highest FG% for his playoff career (2006's 1st round exit to Phoenix is his highest).

I think he benefitted a lot when he played within Phil's system and played off Shaq. When he tried to get away from that, not coincidentally, the Lakers stopped winning championships.

this thread is too good not to bump

[QUOTE=joe]You guys are just so in love with MJ and his legacy that you're afraid to admit that he would ever faulter to any team. you didn't even listen to his arguments, which were basically..

The league was falling apart that year, talent wise. All the good teams were on the downside of their "prime," and MJs bulls were the best team left.

Furthermore, while you're busy defending the greatness of MJ, bill simmons even said that the 92 Bulls were a great team, just that he didn't think the 98 bulls were a top-10 team

You guys are so, so, so competely sickening with your MJ homerism. Just stop, everyone on this site. Just stop.

When someone states that they think MJ's Bulls could be beaten by a Prime-Shaq led Championship team that went 15-1 in a VERY tough western conference finals... and you are actually OFFENDED and say that that person has lost all credibility, i think you need to see a therapist. its very sad, some of the MJ love that goes on here.[/QUOTE]

amen.
oh, and god forbid you think MJ played in a soft, weakened era!

Bill Simmons is great when it comes to dealing and ranking players. But teams, he fails. But he is good talking about individual players.

I didn't read this whole thread but I thought it was pretty well accepted that the 87 Lakers were the best team of all time. Almost every poll I have seen put up on this topic usually has them winning.

Stop making funny comments, Bill.:sleeping

[QUOTE=EricForman]One thing I love about people dissing the Bulls is that they always say "The Bulls wouldn't be able to guard so and so", such as you saying "the bulls wouldn't be able to guard McHale or Bird".... but yet you guys always convieniently ignore this guy named, MICHAEL JORDAN.

[...]

And for the record, Jordan would be a tougher matchup for ANY TEAM IN THE HISTORY OF THE LEAGUE than Bird, Magic, Kareem, Duncan and Tony F*cking Parker ever would.

Look, anytime you guys pull the Bulls against whoever matchup. Just KNOW THIS: Jordan would torch whoever was guarding him WORSE than Magic/Bird/Duncan would torch any member of the Bulls. That's FACT. Bird wouldn't torch Pippen worse than Jordan would torch DJ. Duncan wouldn't torch Rodman worse than Jordan would torch Bowen. Magic wouuldn't torch Ron Harper worse than Jordan would torch Byron Scott. Bill Russell wouldn't torch Longley worse than whoever would be guarding Jordan.[/QUOTE]

You know... does [I]anyone[/I] else other than me remember Jordan in the Finals in 1996, which is the year in question? Jordan was held to his worst Finals performance of his career, and the only sub-30 ppg Finals of his career, a career-low 27.3 points on 41.5 percent shooting. Anyone but me remember that in Game 2 in which Jordan shot [B][I]9-for-22[/I][/B] ([B]40.9 percent[/B]), that it was [B]Dennis Rodman[/B]'s rebounding that won that game for Chicago? (20 rebounds, NBA Finals-record 11 on the offensive glass)

[QUOTE][B]Hershey Hawkins:[/B] “Rodman was definitely the difference.”

[B]Vincent Askew:[/B] “Rodman killed us."

[B]Sonics coach George Karl:[/B] “There is no question he was the MVP of the game. His offensive rebounds hurt us. A lot of possessions, the momentum of the game, the style of the game, and even the scoreboard might have changed.”[/QUOTE]

Anybody else remember that in the deciding Game 6, Jordan shot an un-Jordanesque [B][I]5-for-19[/I][/B] ([B]26.3 percent[/B] :eek: )? Jordan shot [I]26.3 percent[/I] in a deciding game? :eek: (Can anyone else remember the last time Jordan had a game like that in a deciding game, let alone in the [I]Finals[/I]?) Did everyone block this from their memories? Anyone else other than me remember that it was Rodman's 19 rebounds and Finals-record-tying (for the second time) 11 offensive rebounds that won that game for the Bulls?

[QUOTE][B]Sonics' coach George Karl:[/B] "As you evaluate the series, Dennis Rodman won two basketball games. We controlled Dennis for four games. [U]But Game 2 and tonight, he was the reason they were successful[/U].”[/QUOTE]

Anyone else remember that if not for Rodman, the Bulls would've lost those two games in which Jordan stunk it up and the Sonics would've won that series? Payton was the best defensive guard Jordan faced in the Finals, and he had his worst Finals performance. I think people are just taking the memory of Jordan in general rather than the [B][U]1996 Jordan[/U][/B]. So you can't just say offhand that Jordan would destroy whoever he was matched up against, since IN THAT SEASON, DURING THOSE FINALS, Jordan didn't "destroy" who was defending him, so it [I]would[/I] be possible for a team who had a Dennis Johnson or a Michael Cooper to "stand a chance." (by the way, anyone remember what happened the game [I]after[/I] Jordan's much talked about 63-point game against the Celtics in the playoffs? Anyone but me remember DJ held Jordan to 21 and the Bulls were eliminated?)

Be [B]objective[/B] in these discussions rather than rabidly taking offense at the suggestion that someone or some team could actually possibly best Jordan.

Payton's defense, while huge, was by no means solely responsible for Jordan's shooting in the '96 Finals. He was bricking [b]wide open[/b] baseline 17-footers, layups, and offensive putbacks, which are usually automatic for him. His shot was just off the entire series for whatever reason. He wouldn't have shot 50% or anything had he not been ice cold on top of Payton's great defense (and Seattles constant swarming traps on MJ), but I'd say about 45-47% from having watched the series.

Honestly, I wish people would just watch the series rather than assuming that Payton did some sort of job on Jordan. He played excellent defense, probably the best one could. But it was a combination of the constant doubles/traps, Payton's defense, Jordan being ICE cold, and his teammates being ice cold as well, which allowed Seattle to keep pressure on Jordan because no one else was making them pay (Pippen/Kukoc/Kerr were a combined 36% from the field that series). All these things conspired to produce a relatively poor performance (by Jordan's standards).

[quote]by the way, anyone remember what happened the game after Jordan's much talked about 63-point game against the Celtics in the playoffs? Anyone but me remember DJ held Jordan to 21 and the Bulls were eliminated?)[/quote]

Yeah, we remember it. 49 followed by 63 followed by a 19 point near triple-double (19/10/9) against a perennial first team defender and the best defensive team in the league, with no help. Sounds like a pretty good series to me.

They are top 10 for sure but that 96 Bulls team was playing in one of the weakest eras of NBA history. '94/'95-'98/'99 was about as bad as I can remember the NBA ever being.

With that said, those Bulls teams were outstanding. They were great no matter what era. But their competition around the league was, IMO, at an all time low in their 2nd set of Three Titles.

[QUOTE=Soundwave]Bill Simmons: Read my article. Please read my article. I'll add more controversey.

You can argue the '96 Bulls aren't the best ever (though you'd be in the minority), but not even top 10 ... gimme a break.

The NBA was soft in 1996? The '96 Orlando Magic or the '96 Sonics would tear the 2007 NBA apart. The '96 Jazz, Rockets, Pacers, Knicks, and Suns were nothing to scoff at either ... all of those teams if put into 2007 would have a pretty strong shot at getting to the Finals. The 95-96 Miami Heat who were the 8th seed in the 1996 Eastern Conference could probably be the no.1 or no.2 seed in the 2007 NBA Eastern Conference.

Teams like the 2007 Lakers or Warriors wouldn't even make the playoffs in 1996, and half the East at least wouldn't make it.[/QUOTE]


yes yes. true true true. :applause:

[QUOTE=Loki]Honestly, I wish people would just watch the series rather than assuming that Payton did some sort of job on Jordan.[/QUOTE]

I watched the series when it happened, thank you very much, as well as the entire championship run. The point is that everyone acts as if Jordan would torch whatever poor, hapless, unfortunate soul who had the misfortune of being matched up against him. He didn't do it in the season in question on the biggest stage, so why does everyone assume he'd blow anyone else out of the water? That was his worst Finals by far, and if not for Rodman's offensive rebounding--which made up for no one being able to make a shot, the Bulls would've lost that series. So why does everyone act like they were invincible and couldn't possibly be defeated by any team in history, when it took record rebounding performances by Rodman to keep them from losing to Seattle, who aren't an all-time great team? That's all I'm saying. A little objectivity rather than simply making a blanket statement that no team in history could compete with the Bulls, and that Jordan would decimate his defender.