Will Anthony Davis suffer the same fate as Bosh and Love?

Miami tried to feature Bosh in the post. So did Cleveland with Love. Those guys couldn't produce offense as reliably as LeBron, Wade and Irving. Usually they'd give it a go in the first quarter and move on when it wasn't working. As a first option, sure keep feeding the guy until he gets going. When you have two other guys who are better scorers, it makes no sense to keep feeding the third best scorer.

Love isn't dumped on by anyone who knows basketball. Cleveland put up all time post season offense when he was there. He was a big part of that even if he wasn't scoring. He spaced for LeBron and Irving. That's a really useful thing to do and it doesn't show up in the box score, but by just standing there being a threat he's making the offense better even without touching the ball. He gave some teams real headaches (Raptors for example), but struggled against others (Warriors). He was a valuable contributer, but limited as a player.

Same with Bosh. He really helped their defense. That was more valuable than his scoring, so that's where they used him. That he made them better is clear. They were struggling against the Celtics in 2012 when he was out injured. His coming back is one of the things that helped turn that series around. Even when he wasn't scoring he was making the Heat better. And Bosh not scoring was usually not that big a deal. The Heat had two more really good scorers. What they really needed was for Bosh to contribute in other ways, spacing and defense. He usually did that job well.

One thing though was clear with both. While they were overall very helpful to the cause. They were both elite role players, not elite main options. They struggled in certain matchups despite efforts by their team and LeBron to get them going. Classical role player stuff. Great one game, gone the next. Only they did way more than the typical role player. They couldn't lead their teams to any kind of success as the main guy, but they were both key to success in a reduced role.

[QUOTE=egokiller]It's not so much their reduction in points, and more so how they had to become spot up shooters to accommodate LeBron's piss poor style of basketball that is only good for going 3/9 despite being on the most stacked teams in his conference. He showed up to the finals fresh against a worn down WCF winner each time.[/QUOTE]

And even then 2 of those "winning" series went to 7, twice requiring legacy bailout shots, and in the case of 16', even blatant league interference like we've never seen before.... which led to the KD-Warriors. :roll: :roll: :roll:

[QUOTE=Ainosterhaspie]Miami tried to feature Bosh in the post. So did Cleveland with Love. Those guys couldn't produce offense as reliably as LeBron, Wade and Irving. Usually they'd give it a go in the first quarter and move on when it wasn't working. As a first option, sure keep feeding the guy until he gets going. When you have two other guys who are better scorers, it makes no sense to keep feeding the third best scorer.

Love isn't dumped on by anyone who knows basketball. Cleveland put up all time post season offense when he was there. He was a big part of that even if he wasn't scoring. He spaced for LeBron and Irving. That's a really useful thing to do and it doesn't show up in the box score, but by just standing there being a threat he's making the offense better even without touching the ball. He gave some teams real headaches (Raptors for example), but struggled against others (Warriors). He was a valuable contributer, but limited as a player.

Same with Bosh. He really helped their defense. That was more valuable than his scoring, so that's where they used him. That he made them better is clear. They were struggling against the Celtics in 2012 when he was out injured. His coming back is one of the things that helped turn that series around. Even when he wasn't scoring he was making the Heat better. And Bosh not scoring was usually not that big a deal. The Heat had two more really good scorers. What they really needed was for Bosh to contribute in other ways, spacing and defense. He usually did that job well.

One thing though was clear with both. While they were overall very helpful to the cause. They were both elite role players, not elite main options. They struggled in certain matchups despite efforts by their team and LeBron to get them going. Classical role player stuff. Great one game, gone the next. Only they did way more than the typical role player. They couldn't lead their teams to any kind of success as the main guy, but they were both key to success in a reduced role.[/QUOTE]
Championship basketball isn't as simple as "love/bosh can't score as good as Kyrie or Lebron, so we won't pass to them"

The problem with Lebron's teams is that lebron-ball (your-turn-my-turn with Kyrie) doesn't move the ball or wear down the opponent's defense, so the opponent is fresher on offense than lebron's teams - otoh, lebron's teams are worn out from defending ball movement and therefore can't get hot offensively like the opponent.. the opponent plays a better brand that puts better pressure on a defense and wins the attrition battle better

They passed Love and Bosh the ball. They ran plays through them. They moved on when they were cold. I know you've built grandiose theories based on box scores rather than watching games, but you don't have a clue. What you describe isn't what happened in games.

Didn't Bosh average something like 25/10 when Wade was out?

His stats actually went up as a second option playing next to Bron.

Most of the time when a scorer takes a reduced roll their points per game drop but their efficiency rises. In these cases of Bosh and Love we see a reduced load and efficiency, showing they arnt getting their comfortable spots, LeBron ball is not making the game easier for them, which in turn reduces the ceiling for a team and requires LeBron to team hop to overload teams in order to win

[QUOTE=warriorfan]Most of the time when a scorer takes a reduced roll their points per game drop but their efficiency rises. In these cases of Bosh and Love we see a reduced load and efficiency, showing they arnt getting their comfortable spots, LeBron ball is not making the game easier for them, which in turn reduces the ceiling for a team and requires LeBron to team hop to overload teams in order to win[/QUOTE]

Bosh in Toronto - 49/30/80 shooting splits

Bosh in Heatles era - 51/31/81 shooting splits

Love in Minny - 45/36/81 shooting splits

Love in Cleveland - 43/38/84 shooting splits

What are you talking about playboy? How about Wade and Irving's efficiency rising?

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855] Only losers sit with their grand kids talking numbers they averaged on teams that went nowhere.[/QUOTE]

Lol. Yet you and the other nerds are the first to talk about the numbers Lebron has put up in losing efforts.

Which one is it? Does losing matter more or does numbers?

Or do you straddle the fence when convenient?

I assure you....if Bosh and Love were doing insane numbers in the finals and winning several I wouldnt add the "Teams that went nowhere" part. Love was ready to demand out because he couldnt make the playoffs. Hardly the same thing as making the finals again and again and again and winning ring after ring after ring. The "Teams that went nowhere" part was obviously the issue. Which is why they left....

According to fantasy experts prior to the 2011 season, Bosh's production was predicted to only slightly decline from his Toronto output.. and that was assuming he played less minutes (which he didn't).

[QUOTE]This makes it difficult to know which way Bosh's minutes will go, but for the sake of comparison, let's assume that Bosh also plays 32.8 minutes per game (same as KG in 2007-08) as a lower bound. If we also assume Bosh's per minute production stays constant, as KG's did in '08, we can forecast Bosh's statistics for the upcoming season.


Bosh's numbers project to dip only slightly relative to his Toronto production despite the hypothetical decline in minutes. Part of this is due to the fact that dropping to 32.8 minutes per game is a smaller decrease for Bosh than it was for KG in percentage terms. Either way, we should still expect Bosh to be a solid 20/10 big with 1 blk and superb percentages. Any improvement in efficiency is icing on the cake for a guy who shot 51.8 percent from the field and 80 percent from the line last season.[/QUOTE]

[url]https://bleacherreport.com/articles/471376-fantasy-nba-how-far-will-chris-boshs-stats-fall-in-miami[/url]

But yeah, let's keep ignoring the facts that LeBron marginalizes big men because oF cOuRSe a THiRd OpTioNs NuMbERs ArE goNnA gO doWn.

[QUOTE=Doranku]According to fantasy experts prior to the 2011 season, Bosh's production was predicted to only slightly decline from his Toronto output.. and that was assuming he played less minutes (which he didn't).



[url]https://bleacherreport.com/articles/471376-fantasy-nba-how-far-will-chris-boshs-stats-fall-in-miami[/url]

But yeah, let's keep ignoring the facts that LeBron marginalizes big men because oF cOuRSe a THiRd OpTioNs NuMbERs ArE goNnA gO doWn.[/QUOTE]


Lets start over here because im having a hard time believing you cant grasp the problem here.....


Can you think of any two guys who put up 30 and 27ppg....who when put on one team....with a guy who also put up 25ppg....wouldnt lead to reduced production for the least of the 3? Really.

Anyone ever. Any 30ppg player...you could combine with a 27ppg player....and not have their presence limit production of a 3rd option who used to be a first?

You think if you put prime David Robinson and Tmac on one team and added Glen Rice or Joe Johnson in their 25ppg form....they would still do those numbers as the third option? What precedent is there for that? The highest scoring third options in the last 40 years are Tom Chambers in Seattle and Tim Hardaway on Run TMC. Only one of them got to 23ppg. And neither of them played with anyone who scored as well as Lebron OR Wade much less....both of them at once.

What logical reason is there to assume Bosh scores his previous 24 as a third option when NOBODY in your life has done it? The Nuggets didnt even do it when they were scoring 125 a game in the 80s. Their third options didnt get past 22 a game. Bosh was supposed to keep up his Toronto production in the 2000s on a team that scored 102 a game and not 125?

Wade dropped a point, Lebron went down 3 points, and Bosh went down 5....


Tell me....how was that to be avoided?

3 guys supposed to score 75 a game(over 80 if they maintained their previous numbers actually)?

Only 3 teams since the merger had their top 3 scorers even get to 73 points. And those teams played 30-40 years ago and averaged 127, 123, and 119 points.

How were the Heat supposed to do it in a time where the highest scoring team in the NBA scored under 108? You giving this any thought beyond Lebron?

Forget Lebron.

Why didnt other teams with 3 stars have their 3rd option doing 24ppg?

Think about that for a moment and let me know if you see our problem. I dont think we are as far apart here as it seems. I think you arent thinking this through outside the confines of a Lebron discussion.

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]Lets start over here because im having a hard time believing you cant grasp the problem here.....


Can you think of any two guys who put up 30 and 27ppg....who when put on one team....with a guy who also put up 25ppg....wouldnt lead to reduced production for the least of the 3? Really.

Anyone ever. Any 30ppg player...you could combine with a 27ppg player....and not have their presence limit production of a 3rd option who used to be a first?

You think if you put prime David Robinson and Tmac on one team and added Glen Rice or Joe Johnson in their 25ppg form....they would still do those numbers as the third option? What precedent is there for that? The highest scoring third options in the last 40 years are Tom Chambers in Seattle and Tim Hardaway on Run TMC. Only one of them got to 23ppg. And neither of them played with anyone who scored as well as Lebron OR Wade much less....both of them at once.

Why didnt other teams with 3 stars have their 3rd option doing 24ppg?

Think about that for a moment and let me know if you see our problem.[/QUOTE]

24 is asking a lot but a 3rd option could still average 20+ ppg like we've seen many times, at least their offensive efficiency should go up with better teammates around them. It didn't happen with Bosh as a 3rd option and it didn't happen with Love.

Klay Thompson is a good example. Obviously we're talking about one of the greatest shooters ever so he doesn't demand the ball and neither does Steph, which led to all 3 averaging 22+ ppg and the Warriors being more efficient on offense in 2017 than in their 73-9 season. It works when your superstar player/MVP is one of the most unselfish players in the league (Curry) and he's paired with other guys who can play off-ball as well. Wade, Lebron and Bosh all dominated the ball prior to teaming up, same with the Cleveland Big 3. Lebron's ball-dominant playing style doesn't allow two other guys to put up high numbers on a consistent basis.

Klay put up 22, 20, and 21 a game on teams that scored 116 to 119ppg. The Heat by 2012 were doing 98.5ppg....as one of the top scoring teams in the league. When they did 102 it was 5th in the league. The slowest pace team in the NBA last year did 105ppg. Obviously in todays league the extra scoring would give Bosh a chance to go from 16-19 to 19-22....playing the exact same way.

Thats what seem to be ignoring here. ALL the bigtime scoring 3rd options were in eras where 110-125ppg wasnt uncommon. Defensive eras never allowed such a thing. In the league the Heat were in(which wasnt great on D itself compared to the era before) a big 3 wouldnt score like that. Ray Allen.....generally considered the least of the big 3? Went from a career high 26ppg all the way to 17 in 2008. Pierce went from 25 to 20. KG 22 to 19. Responsibility, plays run for you, and often minutes reduce on talented teams....

Nobody should be surprised a 3rd option isnt doing huge numbers in leagues that dont have 125ppg teams....nor should we be surprised guys dont do 20ppg in 28 minutes a game like Love. Why would he do superstar numbers in 28-32 minutes as a sidekick or 3rd option when he played 36-39 as the only star to get the numbers before?

I just feel like if some of you didnt muddy your thought process with Lebron you wouldnt think any of this was odd.

Close thread, y'all been

BLAZED.

[QUOTE=SpaceJam]Bosh in Toronto - 49/30/80 shooting splits

Bosh in Heatles era - 51/31/81 shooting splits

Love in Minny - 45/36/81 shooting splits

Love in Cleveland - 43/38/84 shooting splits

What are you talking about playboy? How about Wade and Irving's efficiency rising?[/QUOTE]
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