AD is shedding light on Kareem's career & ranking, imo (new all-time rankings inside)

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]

1. [B][COLOR="DarkRed"]I assume you mean Spo is the next Phil Jackson[/COLOR][/B]. I love Spo, so I agree that he had a very good coach in Spo. I disagree that Lebron wasn't coachable, but even if I did...I don't know how that impacted Spo being a great coach.

[/quote]
No, Blatt was the next Phil that Lebron didn't allow

Blatt wanted to install an Princeton type offense with a lot of off-ball movement - Lebron knew he didn't have the skill to excel in that offense, so he fired him.

But again, Lebron has rejected coaching from every coach he's ever had - there's documented proof (provided earlier with those links to each coach) that he shut down every coach and had them run lebron-ball.


[QUOTE=DMAVS41]

2. [B][COLOR="DarkRed"]Most people aren't aware of how big of favorites the Spurs really should have been in 14[/COLOR][/B].

[/quote]
Why should they have been favored by more? Were they stacked with talent more than the Heat?.. The Heat had 4 HOF and a much younger core (36/37/32 for duncan/ginobili/parker versus 29/29/32 for lebron/bosh/wade)

So the Spurs didn't have more talent.. they won via teamwork, which is all on lebron and lebron-ball.

heck, the 14' Spurs were taken 7 games by the 8-seeded Mavs.. So how are you making excuses for the Heat?.. you're ignoring the facts


[QUOTE=DMAVS41]

2. [B][COLOR="DarkRed"]Most people aren't aware of how big of favorites the Spurs really should have been in 14[/COLOR][/B].

[/quote]
Remember when the 98' Jazz swept Shaq's 4 all-star Lakers and destroyed Duncan/Popovich's Spurs on the way to the Finals?

They were playing WAY better than the Bulls, yet no one was making excuses for the Bulls - MJ just went out there and carried his injured, weary team to the championship.

Otoh, you're making excuses for a 4 HOF team that had a much younger core

the old ass spurs simply gave the heat a basketball lesson on ball movement - that lesson couldn't be given to kobe, who was skilled enough to excel in some of the best systems ever.. again, there's no excuse for lebron losing to the spurs, who had the exact same team as the previous year when the heat were favored and won


[QUOTE=DMAVS41]

Again, of course there is going to be some reduction when you have 3 guys like that...you can't optimally have 3 players like that producing...[B][COLOR="DarkRed"]sacrifice is necessary and Bosh felt most of it most of the time[/COLOR][/B]. He was solid defensively though and deserves credit for that.

[/quote]
Nonsense.. Klay averaged 20 ppg on the Warriors as the 3rd option.. Bosh could've done that too but he didn't fit with Lebron or Lebron-ball.. But he would've fit with Kobe and averaged 20 ppg like Klay did.


[QUOTE=DMAVS41]

We will just have to avoid this as we couldn't be further apart. My guess is that [B][COLOR="DarkRed"]you assume Wade/Bosh were way better than they actually were[/COLOR][/B]. The Spurs won 62 games, had the best SRS, and a more balanced team than the Heat.

[/quote]
Bosh was 29 years old and in his prime - he was still the 25 ppg scorer that he was in Toronto, but was shut down by lebron-ball..

how am I wrong - the guy was still 29 years old - you're just being results-oriented and saying "well, he sucked next to lebron so he sucked period".... no, lebron-ball shut him down - he was still the 25 ppg guy that he was in Toronto and could've averaged 20 ppg like other 3rd options have done.

but again, lebron couldn't call on bosh because he'd reduced him to spot-up shooter.. so it's all on lebron and his suboptimal style.. if bosh was the player he was supposed to be alongside lebron, that alone would've made the heat juggernauts and no opponent would have a chance

And btw, wade averaged 20/5/5 on 55% in the ECF - that isn't enough help heading into the Finals?.. those are basically prime pippen numbers with better efficiency.. So Wade was fine, but he gave up in the Finals because he saw Lebron give up - they were cool with it and mailed it in.. Wade wouldn't have done that with Kobe.


[QUOTE=DMAVS41]

2. [B][COLOR="DarkRed"]Most people aren't aware of how big of favorites the Spurs really should have been in 14[/COLOR][/B].

[/quote]
the spurs were old as dirt and didn't have more talent.. So Lebron can't beat the best SRS team with a 2 seed/b2b champion/4 HOF team, when guys like MJ did it with a 6 seed full of rookies?

if lebron is so great, he's supposed to make up small differences, like kobe was expected to do in 2008 against the Celtics, and like he infact did in 2010

listen to Isiah Thomas say that his pistons had the far better cast, but MJ was the difference (Isiah speaks after Magic):

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6og_pOVi2w&t=0m16s[/url]



CONTINUED...…
.

.
CONTINUED....


[QUOTE=DMAVS41]

3. Competition matters. But, Bosh missed serious time in 12 and hardly was anything approaching Pau standards in the playoffs when they won. In addition, both Wade/Bosh were severely diminished in reality vs how you are treating them in the 13 playoffs as well.

[/quote]
Lebron has a cakewalk through the East - he would've won without Bosh or Wade..

Only in the Finals did he need Wade, and Wade showed up in those 13' Finals, which is why they still had a chance after 3 games (they were down 2-1, not 3-0), despite Lebron's anemic 16 on 39%.



[QUOTE=DMAVS41]

[B][COLOR="DarkRed"].I'm just saying you have to factor in the competition[/COLOR][/B]. It just wasn't the same as playing some of the teams Lebron has in the finals.

[/quote]
It isn't fair to compare teams in the recent 3-star vs. 3-star format to teams in kobe's era where it was 2-star vs. 2 star..

Ultimately Lebron had his own 3-star super-teams and the only actual talent deficit he ever overcame in his whole career was the 07' ECF


[QUOTE=DMAVS41]

[B]None of the elite players in 2009 or 2010 had great help[/B]

[/QUOTE]
you've been debunked on this already

Kobe beat the Spurs in 2008 and they were actually a 3-star team.. Kobe beat them with his 2-star team, so that alone is a bigger talent deficit than lebron ever overcame.

then he beat KG in 2010 and his superior big 4 cast.


[QUOTE=DMAVS41]

[B][COLOR="DarkRed"].I'm just saying you have to factor in the competition[/COLOR][/B]. It just wasn't the same as playing some of the teams Lebron has in the finals.

[/quote]
Why do Lebron fans complain about his "comp" when he had his own super-teams? Lebron's Heat were the most talented team in the league - so don't complain about the spurs...

And Lebron's Cavs were originally favored over the Warriors in 15', so they were considered better on paper.. kyrie > klay, while love is obviously > dray...

so it's on lebron for not realizing synergies with these guys and having a juggernaut that was better than curry's lesser cast..


[QUOTE=DMAVS41]

[B][COLOR="DarkRed"].I'm just saying you have to factor in the competition[/COLOR][/B]. It just wasn't the same as playing some of the teams Lebron has in the finals.

[/quote]
Lebron only has an excuse once KD arrived.. So we can give him a pass for 07 and 18'... But Harden almost won with cp3, so kobe wins easily with kyrie and love in 17', who are both better than old cp3..

the KD warriors weren't unstoppable; Lebron-ball just made them look that way.. :confusedshrug: … they looked quite human against harden or the 8-seed clippers


[QUOTE=DMAVS41]

5. That Rockets team is way better than you are giving them credit for. Kobe in place of Harden would have had a far better chance to win than he would have had in place of Lebron. [B][COLOR="DarkRed"]But we aren't talking about replacing Harden...we are talking about replacing Lebron.[/COLOR][/B]

[/quote]
harden nearly won with cp3, so kobe wins easily in 17' with kyrie and love, both of which are better than old cp3


[QUOTE=DMAVS41]

6. Meh...this is a weak argument. Demanding that Lebron win 70 games in the regular season so he's not viewed as a dog is the height of the one-sided nature I'm attacking. [B][COLOR="DarkRed"]How about Kobe winning 75 games with Shaq[/COLOR][/B]...why the **** didn't that happen?

[/QUOTE]
if there was another team at the time that was winning 70 games with less talent than Shaq's Lakers and making the Lakers underdogs, then I would knock Shaq for not winning 70 games.. but the lakers were the dominant favorite like they were supposed to be - they dominated their comp, which included the spurs, whereas lebron couldn't even come CLOSE to the win totals of guys that had weaker casts (curry, kawhi)

there's no excuse for lebron failing to win 60 games, let alone 70.. ur just making excuses for him.. he wasn't overmatched in 2016 and had the better team on paper - that's why they were originally favored in 2015 - the only reason they became underdogs is because they looked so shitty in the regular season, while the warriors were winning 70.. and they looked shitty because lebron-ball doesn't result in great teams.
.

3ball accidentally proping up lebron in his failed attempt tO put distance between MJ and Kareem :facepalm

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]

Kareem won 56 game’s on a literal expansion team....and they had the best record in the nba the year the Blazers won the title. We calling out Kareem for losing in the wcf with a one seed but ignoring that in the first year without Kareem the Lakers lost in 5 to Kevin Johnson and Tom Chambers in the second round?

Much as you hate on stars teammates you should look into the game’s his guards had be the contenders in the late 70s. Two common themes of big Lakers games....

[IMG]https://thumbs.gfycat.com/PastFarKillerwhale-size_restricted.gif[/IMG]


Kareem getting triple teamed and nobody taking advantage....


And back, to back, to back turnovers:


[IMG]https://thumbs.gfycat.com/AngelicDismalAllosaurus-size_restricted.gif[/IMG]





Go look at what Lionel Hollins did to the Laker guards. One game he had 8 steals by himself and Rick Barry interviews him after and talks about how their press was [B]less[/B] effective than it had been in other game’s that series.

There is nobody who saw those game blames Kareem. But you aren’t here to be fair anyway.

[/QUOTE]
I never said Kareem wasn't good... I have him ranked about 7 or 8

that's pretty good

but he's bird-fed - he needs a great perimeter player to take attention away and get him the ball

ultimately the bird-feeders > the bird-fed.. they control the game more and feed the bird-fed guys like kareem, while also having better records [I]without[/I] the bird-fed, then vice versa

since the bird-feeders > the bird fed and have better records on their own, they're superior to kareem and bump kareem down to about #7 all-time (below the tier 1 versatile assassins, aka mj/bird/kobe; below the physical force bigs, aka wilt/shaq; and below the bird-feeders, aka magic... Duncan is debateable and kareem is still ahead of the team-hoppers/super-team seekers, aka KD/Lebron)..

^^^ so that puts kareem at about 7 all-time

[QUOTE=3ball]I never said Kareem wasn't good... I have him ranked about 7 or 8

that's pretty good

but he's bird-fed - he needs a great perimeter player to take attention away and get him the ball

ultimately the bird-feeders > the bird-fed.. they control the game more and feed the bird-fed guys like kareem, while also having better records [I]without[/I] the bird-fed, then vice versa

since the bird-feeders > the bird fed and have better records on their own, they're superior to kareem and bump kareem down to about #7 all-time (below the tier 1 versatile assassins, aka mj/bird/kobe; below the physical force bigs, aka wilt/shaq; and below the bird-feeders, aka magic... Duncan is debateable and kareem is still ahead of the team-hoppers/super-team seekers, aka KD/Lebron)..

^^^ so that puts kareem at about 7 all-time[/QUOTE]

:lol

This guy really is a secret Kobe lover

He has Kobe #2 all time :lol
He has Bird ranked as a "elite 2 way assassin" :lol
He has Kareem 7th or 8th :lol

How are you not banned? Real GM had it right.

[QUOTE=3ball]the KD warriors weren't unstoppable; Lebron-ball just made them look that way.. :confusedshrug:

[QUOTE=3ball]Why should they have been favored by more? Were they stacked with talent more than the Heat?.. The Heat had 4 HOF and a much younger core (36/37/32 for duncan/ginobili/parker versus 29/29/32 for lebron/bosh/wade)

So the Spurs didn't have more talent.. they won via teamwork, which is all on lebron and lebron-ball.

heck, the 14' Spurs were taken 7 games by the 8-seeded Mavs.. So how are you making excuses for the Heat?.. you're ignoring the facts[/QUOTE]

:applause:

[QUOTE=3ball]Remember when the 98' Jazz swept Shaq's 4 all-star Lakers and destroyed Duncan/Popovich's Spurs on the way to the Finals?

They were playing WAY better than the Bulls, yet no one was making excuses for the Bulls - MJ just went out there and carried his injured, weary team to the championship.[/QUOTE]

These guys don't know how to determine how good [I][U]teams[/U][/I] are. They just look at the roster and count the number of all stars and such. The 98 Jazz destroy that premise. They beat the 4 all-star Lakers, Olajuwon/Drexler/Barkley Rockets and the Robinson/Duncan Spurs that would eventually win 2 titles in the next 5 years. Most of these guys are probably 16 and don't know what they're talking about.

[Quote=3ball] 1. MJ
2. Wilt
3. Kobe
4. Bird
5. Magic
6. Shaq
7. Kareem
8. Russell
9. Duncan
10. Hakeem[/quote]

5 months later... :lol


[QUOTE=3ball]
1) MJ
2) Bird
3) Kobe
4) Magic
5) Wilt
6) Shaq
7) Kareem
8) Duncan (seriously considering Duncan over Kareem)
9) Russell
10) Oscar
11) Lebron
12) Dr. J
13) Durant


[/QUOTE]

Wilt drops from 2 to 5
Bird goes from 4 to 2
Hakeem goes from 10 to 15

In 5 months...For no reason :lol

[QUOTE=3ball]
the KD warriors weren't unstoppable; Lebron-ball just made them look that way.. :confusedshrug: … they looked quite human against harden or the 8-seed clippers
.[/QUOTE]
The "mighty" Pistons got taken to an elimination game in the first round.

[QUOTE=bigkingsfan]The "mighty" Pistons got taken to an elimination game in the first round.[/QUOTE]

:eek:

MJ ball just made the Pistons look unbeatable for losing to them 3 years in a row :eek:

[QUOTE=SpaceJam2]5 months later... :lol




Wilt drops from 2 to 5
Bird goes from 4 to 2
Hakeem goes from 10 to 15

In 5 months...For no reason :lol[/QUOTE]

5 months is along time. While you are jacking off in your moms basement posting nonsense 60+ times a day 3ball is critically thinking, calculating, innovating new basketball analysis. He has demonstrated basketball understanding far far far beyond your comprehension. Maybe you should stick to your low iq threads while copy pasting DPBM and other worthless statistics you got off basketball reference :lol

[IMG]https://i.postimg.cc/JhVBJdHk/280-F87-C4-99-C8-45-C8-AE9-F-A5-C1-F419-BB78.jpg[/IMG]

When we hit a point that we denigrate even goat tier scorers for playing team ball we might as well end basketball discussion. The very idea that multiple players getting touches and moving the ball around, off ball positioning, posting up, reposting, drawing doubles and finding cutters makes you inferior because you didn

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]When we hit a point that we denigrate even goat tier scorers for playing team ball we might as well end basketball discussion. The very idea that multiple players getting touches and moving the ball around, off ball positioning, posting up, reposting, drawing doubles and finding cutters makes you inferior because you didn’t bring the ball up and pound the air out of it....while also making hundreds of topics opposing the ball dominant teammate diminishing guys?

It makes it pretty clear you’re just gonna find reason to hate on whoever you target at the moment with little or no concern for consistency.

Should be the 19 year old guys who don’t remember what basketball was for 70 years calling out guys for playing as one of 5 not supposed fans of “real” ball. Getting good position off the ball to catch a pass and score quickly....OR being able to score one on one at an all time elite level. An obsessed fan of Michael Jordan hating on those qualities is just amazing.


Merely being given the ball does not make you birdfed. Kareem wasn’t some stationary sky hook machine needing his handlers to put him in position. He did not play the way he appears in the same 5 sky hook highlights espn shows. He was mobile, skilled, and very very apt to create his own shots in the post or facing up.....



[IMG]https://thumbs.gfycat.com/BitesizedRawAyeaye-size_restricted.gif[/IMG]




[IMG]https://thumbs.gfycat.com/VictoriousNegligibleCobra-size_restricted.gif[/IMG]



Kareem was a “Give him the ball and get out of the way” scorer not some play finisher that has to be put in perfect position to drop in a layup.

The whole birdfed concept in fact is nothing but a modern fans way of hating on fundamentals and off ball play to glorify flashier play.

Kareem played the right way virtually all the time and required no more setting up than anyone else who didn’t bring the ball up the floor. Having a play run to get you the ball in your spot doesn’t make you birdfed. It makes you a basketball player.

And when you couple being incredible with your off the ball positioning after having been guarded every possible way and fronted and doubled for years with among the most polished one on one games ever?

Calling it “Birdfed” is downright disrespectful. It’s emblematic of everything wrong with not just modern bigs but modern players. This bullshit is why kids who could be the next Kareem or Duncan are working on step back threes instead of their footwork 16 feet and in. Some real millennial shit.[/QUOTE]
Defenses used to be tougher. There were more nuances involved.

But you were more free to be a basketball player before the 2010s.

Derozan is is pretty weak..but he has a fvcking point. Being nit-picked like this didn’t happen before. The term “birdfed” in basketball has existed for like 4 years.

Everyone knew Kareem was unstoppable and there weren’t conditions put on it.

I mean Wilt, perhaps the most narcissistic man who’s ever dominated the game knew when to ask for help with Kareem.

1. No, Blatt was not the next Phil Jackson and he wasn't fired because of Lebron. If anything, Lebron made him look way better than he was because very few players in history get the 15 Cavs in the position Lebron did. I agree he got screwed as a coach, but blaming that all on Lebron is unfair.

2. I've already addressed the 14 Spurs issue. I'm not saying it was impossible to win...I'm simply saying you aren't being fair to reality. Bosh/Wade was not the prime players they were after 11. This was a combination of age/health for them...and in Bosh's case...a better look at his real value. He got over-rated putting up regular season stats in Toronto. This isn't to say he wasn't really good...he absolutely was. But you are trying to make him into something he wasn't to fit your narrative.

With Bosh, he was out of the league less than 2 years later. He would play less than 100 more games in his career. He would never play a playoff game again.

To credit Lebron with having 3 other hall of famers...again, proves you aren't here to be fair. Ray Allen was 38 years old. He wasn't bad or anything, but he wasn't what you are saying he was.

3. More rampant contradictions. On one hand, you want to say the Jazz was way better than they get credit for because that was a real team...etc. But then, on the other hand, you downplay the Spurs who were built similar to the Jazz. You can't have it both ways.

4. Interesting, another inconsistency. You bring up the 14 Mavs taking the 14 Spurs to 7. Why aren't you bringing this up about the 08 Celtics getting taken to 7 twice...and then 6 in the ECF. Could it be that you aren't remotely fair and are totally biased? And, even worse, Kobe was actually favored in that series...whereas the Heat were slight underdogs in 14.

Do you see my problem with your tactics?

5. Again, why would I be surprised that MJ did something Lebron didn't or couldn't. You need to stop bringing him up with me. I already think he's the best player ever and you sound deranged when you do it as it has no relevance to this discussion.

6. Curry/Klay/Durant fits together better than Bosh/Lebron/Wade. I completely agree.

7. Again, you can lie and try to bend reality, but the Spurs were favored and were the best team all year. Factor in the diminished versions of the 3 HOF games you keep referencing...and you get the Spurs as the favorite with homecourt. The Spurs were about -130 to win...and honestly it should have been more.

In addition, Lebron played pretty well overall. If it was Jordan playing that and losing, you'd be blaming his teammates. 28/8/4 68% TS...I mean...I don't think those numbers exactly depict how good Lebron was as there was some weak defense by the Heat that is in part on Lebron, but this gets at my bigger point...winning/losing is not the best way to judge players because of circumstances matter.

8. Yes, the East was super easy and in this very thread, I've used that as an example of why we can't just blindly say "he made 8 finals in a row" without context. Can you stop repeating things I've already addressed or agreed with, please?

9. No, it isn't that simple. When Kobe won his 2 titles...he needed less because the competition was worse. That is just a fact. Even worse for your argument...none of the other teams actually had an elite player without another star. Who are these "2-star" teams? Dirk/Terry...Melo/Billups...Lebron/Mo...Dwight/Lewis...Old KG/Pierce...Wade/Marion...

No, the other star players did not have the same kind of help....and of course, let's ignore coaching and pretend Lamar Odom didn't exist as well...fantasy is fun.

10. No, it isn't debunked. Manu was hurt in the 08 series against the Spurs and I wouldn't call that a 3-star team anyway. But it was an impressive series by Kobe and the Lakers.

Unfortunately, they played an actual 3-star team in the finals and got destroyed as the favorite...again, a team that needed 7 games to get by the Hawks and the Cavs.

Now wait a minute, not only does this destroy your 2014 argument against the Spurs, but...did Lebron James...with a worse supporting cast...come closer to beating the Celtics than Kobe did?

How did that happen? How did Lebron get to a game 7 and droop 45 to almost beat them in Boston? The same competition...same year...interesting how you don't bring that up.

11. I'm not complaining...I'm simply explaining reality to you. Playing the Durant Warriors in the Finals is a lot different than playing the Pacers/Nets/Sixers/Magic/Celtics...and again, for half of those series, Kobe had it easier than Lebron ever did because of Shaq/Phil.

12. No, again, you aren't understanding how teams are built. Kobe would have had a much better chance in place of Harden. Those Rockets were designed to beat the Warriors. You shouldn't be on a basketball forum and not understand the specifics of matchups. In addition, Iggy was not right in that series and it does skew things a bit.

But, are you now arguing that Harden is better than Lebron? Because if you think Lebron had better help and Harden came closer to beating him...you kind of have to with the rigid way you think.

13. In 2015...Lebron was playing with a team that had never played together. New players and a new coach. Kyrie/Love had never even really won meaningful games before in their careers up to that point.

I know you won't care about reality, but Lebron also missed 13 games that season...and the Cavs went 3-10 without him. With him...they were 50-19.

In 2016 they won 57 games. Kyrie missed like 30 games. Again, do you care at all about reality? You expect them to do something only a couple teams ever did despite their 2nd best player missing nearly half the season?

They went 56-20 with Lebron...1-5 without him...

Prove you aren't a troll and concede this point like some of the others. Do you actually think something that happened just a few years ago is going to be easily lied about?

Just like the 08 Spurs series with Manu hurt...calling it a 3-star team...I know the league man...I don't forget obvious shit like that.

14. Do those career charts give you pause at all? The same methodology that ranks Jordan as pretty clearly the greatest peak player ever...also has Kobe's level considerably lower than Lebron's both in terms of peak and longevity.

Do you think there is any chance you aren't seeing things clearly here?