"Pippen was the best player in the world in 93, 94, 95" - Dennis Rodman

The MAIN REASONS that Pip is a legend is because of his positional versatilty and floor game. Could play and defend four different positions at a very high level. And LEGIT was great at passing, defending, and rebounding his position. BUT here's the thing.... IN NBA history, u have legends whose floor game and positional versatility is JUST AS GOOD OR CLOSE! BUT on top of all that, they are legit alpha dog scorers on top of it. Saying this ISN'T HATING!

It's not ABOUT Pip's PPG so much. Guys like Magic and Isiah averaged under 20 PPG for their careers. And for MOST SEASONS in their career, averaged under 20 PPG. BUT they were pass first PG's who DOMINATED games scoring when it was time. At the DROP OF A HAT, they could switch their mindset and become dominant scorers. If u know the game of hoops, u know guys who average 18-21 PPG who AREN'T alpha dog scorers. And u ALSO know guys who average 18-21 PPG who are among the most lethal scorers in the world. There's a DIFFERENCE!

[QUOTE]They do that because of Barkley's postseason. In 10 games, dude averaged 28/13/5 on ~50/35/74 splits.[/QUOTE]

Small sample sizes will always be more inconsistent. His stats were inflated by going 37/13/6 on 61% against the Warriors in the first round. Against Houston he was down to 23/13/4 on 46% as Kevin Johnson outscored him.

[QUOTE]But even then he unperformed in the 95 playoffs (19ppg on 44% shooting).[/QUOTE]

He was even worse for the playoffs as a whole so I assume you mean the Orlando series. He did average 19 ppg but that came with 10 boards as a SF and 6 assists. A lot of the Bulls' stats nosedived when MJ came in. He came out the blue so late they couldn't adjust as MJ suddenly was consuming 24 shots a game in the season and 25 a game in the playoffs. The next year when they had time to adapt Pippen arguably was having his best season before late season injuries.

If Pippen played at his full season level in the 95' playoffs maybe they go all the way but I'm not sure. Their biggest problems were rebounding and interior defense. Pippen upped it to 10 boards a game. I don't think you are going to get much more from a SF and he didn't have the size to defend Shaq. That's why they needed Rodman to play the Grant role.

[QUOTE]Lowkey I think that version of Jordan gets underrated. While 'rusty' he still averaged 30 on 48%FG[/QUOTE]

It always amuses me because his stats across the board were better in the 95' playoffs than any of the next three years. The "rusty" stuff is used as an excuse because they don't want to acknowledge they needed a Rodman or Grant to win.

[QUOTE]Two things, Kevin Johnson was not better than Pippen, I know you didn't say it. But [B]you did say Patrick Ewing was better than Pippen in 1993.[/B] No he wasn't. Not in the regular season and not in the post-season.[/QUOTE]

No I did not. Ewing was better in 93', Pippen in 94' and thereafter.

[QUOTE]So Pippen is a "scrub" because he didnt take a team to a Championship right? But a player like Barkley isnt a scrub even though he never led a team to a Championship? [/QUOTE]

It is funny because the same people ripping Pippen are the same people who hype Barkley, Malone, Ewing, Drexler, Payton because they played against, not with MJ. Barkley and Malone were better than Pippen but Pippen consistently is higher on the all-time lists than Ewing, Drexler, and Payton. If Pippen is a bum, like MJ stans say, what does that say about MJ's comp?

[QUOTE] I get it, the Branstans are doing it to elevate Lebron and the MJstans are knocking Pippen to elevate Jordan[/QUOTE]

LeBron didn't even play until the 2004 season. Why is everything boiled down to LeBron? Pippen was a popular 90s players. Why is it not within the realm of possibility that guys like me and 97 simply happen to be Pippen fans?

[QUOTE]Why don't you all take a look at his first 3 post-season appearances and game 7 of his 4th. I remember them. He was horrible. If those years were on Jordan's resume you guys would have a field day[/QUOTE]

His stats are misleading for his second season because of a game where he played exactly 1 minute. So it counts as a game played but he gets 0s across the board. By 90' he was 19/7/6 (probably similar numbers in 89' when you take the 1 minute game out). Not exactly "horrible."

[QUOTE]Pipp has a lot of warts on his resume you guys are turning a blind eye.[/QUOTE]

So does every player. It is interesting we get chapter and verse on all of Pippen's but never for his teammate...

[QUOTE]People were bashing Pip waaaayyyyy before Lebron James came on the scene. The argument has stemmed because Jordan stans paint this narrative that Jordan won with little help from his team[/QUOTE]

Exactly. Now Pippen is supposedly a tool of LeBron stans. 10 years ago you and I were called closet Kobe stans on ISH for being Pippen fans. Pippen has fans and they get annoying when they see MJ stans out there every day saying he sucked.

[QUOTE]Neither has Pippen dude.[/QUOTE]

True, but isn't it funny how Magic gets full credit for his sidekick rings, as does Kobe, but Pippen doesn't?

rodman sucked Kim Jung c ock

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;13974786]. By 90' he was 19/7/6 (probably similar numbers in 89' when you take the 1 minute game out). Not exactly "horrible."[/QUOTE]

No, but what plagued him AT THAT TIME was the wart game 7 of the 1990 ECF, the migraine. Detroit players even talk about it to this day, until Scottie arrives, the Bulls weren't beating them. They knew if they beat up Pipp they win the series. But people here acting like Pippen wasn't part of the beatings at the hands of Detroit, and all of sudden appeared in 1991 and the Bulls started winning. Horace Grant deserves alot of blame to. He shot 3-17 from the field for 10 points in the migraine game.

[QUOTE=RogueBorg;13974792]No, but what plagued him AT THAT TIME was the wart game 7 of the 1990 ECF, the migraine. Detroit players even talk about it to this day, until Scottie arrives, the Bulls weren't beating them. They knew if they beat up Pipp they win the series. But people here acting like Pippen wasn't part of the beatings at the hands of Detroit, and all of sudden appeared in 1991 and the Bulls started winning. Horace Grant deserves alot of blame to. He shot 3-17 from the field for 10 points in the migraine game.[/QUOTE]

MJ molded Pippen but he somehow couldn’t mold his offense

The stats I posted include that game. Pippen did suck that game but he said he couldn't play because of blurred vision (he couldn't tell the jerseys apart). MJ basically bullied him into playing. It is rich then to see MJ stans complain about that performance forevermore with no accountability for MJ's role.

Grant sucked, Pippen sucked. So when the team wins it is all MJ; when they lose it is everybody else?

How about Game 3 of the 93' ECF? Bulls down 0-2 and MJ shots 17% but the rest of the team shows up. We never hear about MJ's bad games.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;13974786]Small sample sizes will always be more inconsistent. His stats were inflated by going 37/13/6 on 61% against the Warriors in the first round. Against Houston he was down to 23/13/4 on 46% as Kevin Johnson outscored him.[/quote]

Maybe so, but if not for the playoffs, James Harden would be viewed as the best player. Over the last 2 or 3 years.

Barkley's 94 playoff stats look as good as his 93 numbers. More points and even better efficiency.

[quote]He was even worse for the playoffs as a whole so I assume you mean the Orlando series. He did average 19 ppg but that came with 10 boards as a SF and 6 assists. A lot of the Bulls' stats nosedived when MJ came in. He came out the blue so late they couldn't adjust as MJ suddenly was consuming 24 shots a game in the season and 25 a game in the playoffs. The next year when they had time to adapt Pippen arguably was having his best season before late season injuries.[/quote]

Yeah. I'm talking about the postseason. Even with Pippen's poor shooting not having a guy like Rodman hurt them. Worm is STILL underappreciated. Not a lot offense there, but the defense? Rebounding? Athletic ability? The overall toughness? Guy helped Chicago become the most feared team alive.

[quote]If Pippen played at his full season level in the 95' playoffs maybe they go all the way but I'm not sure. Their biggest problems were rebounding and interior defense. Pippen upped it to 10 boards a game. I don't think you are going to get much more from a SF and he didn't have the size to defend Shaq. That's why they needed Rodman to play the Grant role.[/quote]

It wouldn't hurt them. Outside of Jordan though there wasn't a lot of scoring. Some of that is limited time integrating Mike in their offense. Maybe a bit of confusion with roles there. But in the end, it came down to their firepower, or lack there of. The rebounding problem was talked about A LOT after that series from what I can remember.

[quote]It always amuses me because his stats across the board were better in the 95' playoffs than any of the next three years. The "rusty" stuff is used as an excuse because they don't want to acknowledge they needed a Rodman or Grant to win.[/quote]

Yeah. Mike's rhythm could've been off. His TIMING might not have been where he wanted it to be either. Funny thing is though, I think dude was more athletic in that playoff run than ANY games from 97-98. Some of 96 too.

[quote]True, but isn't it funny how Magic gets full credit for his sidekick rings, as does Kobe, but Pippen doesn't?[/quote]

Its a double standard. Can't speak for everyone, but Pippen is definitely the best sidekick of all time. 1a/b with 2000 Kobe. I view 01 and later versions of Bean as a "second option" superstar.

[QUOTE=bizil;13974770]The MAIN REASONS that Pip is a legend is because of his positional versatilty and floor game. Could play and defend four different positions at a very high level. And LEGIT was great at passing, defending, and rebounding his position. BUT here's the thing.... IN NBA history, u have legends whose floor game and positional versatility is JUST AS GOOD OR CLOSE! BUT on top of all that, they are legit alpha dog scorers on top of it. Saying this ISN'T HATING!

It's not ABOUT Pip's PPG so much. Guys like Magic and Isiah averaged under 20 PPG for their careers. And for MOST SEASONS in their career, averaged under 20 PPG. BUT they were pass first PG's who DOMINATED games scoring when it was time. At the DROP OF A HAT, they could switch their mindset and become dominant scorers. If u know the game of hoops, u know guys who average 18-21 PPG who AREN'T alpha dog scorers. And u ALSO know guys who average 18-21 PPG who are among the most lethal scorers in the world. There's a DIFFERENCE![/QUOTE]

And again. These guys had like 10 years to succeed. Pip had 1 because hes in Jordan's shadow. How do you know he couldn't have had 1 epic playoff run in his career? My argument has always been that Pip is being penalized for something he never had a fair opportunity to do. I mean the man averaged 24 ppg in 94 against two damn good defenses. And he didnt have a "sidekick" that could take some pressure off him like others have had.

I know I keep harping on Barkley. But I assume you feel he had that drop of the hat scorers mentality. Why didnt he win a championship? Or Drexler? Or Malone?

Kuniva, I have to ask

If Rodman played today, you think a high percentage of his shots would be 3s? He took occasional 3s back then and it wasn't considered "kosher" for 4s and 5s to do it for the most part then, so I'm wondering if you think he'd try to be a 3 and d guy now.

I feel like he'd have to or he'd clog the paint (unless he was playing with a stretch 5).

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;13974787]So does every player. It is interesting we get chapter and verse on all of Pippen's but never for his teammate...



[B]Exactly. Now Pippen is supposedly a tool of LeBron stans. 10 years ago you and I were called closet Kobe stans on ISH for being Pippen fans. Pippen has fans and they get annoying when they see MJ stans out there every day saying he sucked.[/B]



True, but isn't it funny how Magic gets full credit for his sidekick rings, as does Kobe, but Pippen doesn't?[/QUOTE]
I see not much has changed. Good to see you still around though

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;13974826]The stats I posted include that game. Pippen did suck that game but he said he couldn't play because of blurred vision (he couldn't tell the jerseys apart). MJ basically bullied him into playing. It is rich then to see MJ stans complain about that performance forevermore with no accountability for MJ's role.

Grant sucked, Pippen sucked. So when the team wins it is all MJ; when they lose it is everybody else?

How about Game 3 of the 93' ECF? Bulls down 0-2 and MJ shots 17% but the rest of the team shows up. We never hear about MJ's bad games.[/QUOTE]

Theres been a few times when the team stepped up cuz MJ visibly didn't have it. Game 6 of the 97 when Jackson sat all the starters but Pip including MJ. And the Bulls got back in it. And the 4th quarter of the 92 finals when Jackson sat the starters other than Pip. And they came back and won.

[QUOTE=97 bulls;13974864]Theres been a few times when the team stepped up cuz MJ visibly didn't have it. Game 6 of the 97 when Jackson sat all the starters but Pip including MJ. And the Bulls got back in it. And the 4th quarter of the 92 finals when Jackson sat the starters other than Pip. And they came back and won.[/QUOTE]

Can you debunk the false narrative of "[U]MJ was 1-9 before Pippen[/U]?"

I would love to hear your take/opinion on this topic.

[QUOTE=97 bulls;13974864]Theres been a few times when the team stepped up cuz MJ visibly didn't have it. Game 6 of the 97 when Jackson sat all the starters but Pip including MJ. And the Bulls got back in it. And the 4th quarter of the 92 finals when Jackson sat the starters other than Pip. And they came back and won.[/QUOTE]

This.

[QUOTE=Turbo Slayer;13974874]Can you debunk the false narrative of "[U]MJ was 1-9 before Pippen[/U]?"

I would love to hear your take/opinion on this topic.[/QUOTE]

It's not that Jordan being 1-9 before Pip is false. The problem is why his record before Pip is always brought up. The argument is that Jordan won with little and even in some cases absolutely no help. That you can put any combination of run of the mill to solid players around him and hed find some way to win. So the question is why didnt he donit before Pip came?

I dont see Jordans playoff record before Pippen being an indictment against him because they were solid to run of the mill players. Orlando Woolridge and Charles Oakley were very good basketball players Paxson was there. Why didnt they win? I'd even go so far as to say that Oakley might been more impactful than Grant.

The fact is that Jordan was young. And Woolridge was a solid player while Pippen was a perennial top 5 player.