09' Mo outproduced 16' Klay

I don't think you understand. No surprise with your agenda. All logic thrown out the window when it comes to Lebron or Curry.

Every stat 3ball used

VORP
PER
WS/48
BPM

They all paint the exact same picture. Lebron was miles ahead of whoever is second in each of those categories for the regular season and ahead even more in the post season.

Curry isn't even in the lead for the playoffs in some of these categories (4th is WS/48 and 2nd in VORP)

The picture that's trying to be painted here is not what he thinks it is.

[QUOTE=Carbine;15028599]I don't think you understand. No surprise with your agenda. All logic thrown out the window when it comes to Lebron or Curry.

Every stat 3ball used

VORP
PER
WS/48
BPM

They all paint the exact same picture. Lebron was miles ahead of whoever is second in each of those categories for the regular season and ahead even more in the post season.

Curry isn't even in the lead for the playoffs in some of these categories (4th is WS/48 and 2nd in VORP)

The picture that's trying to be painted here is not what he thinks it is.[/QUOTE]

You suck at talking sports.

[QUOTE=warriorfan;15028631]You suck at talking sports.[/QUOTE]

"Fvck..you might be right" in warriofan language :lol

[QUOTE=ShawkFactory;15028633]"Fvck..you might be right" in warriofan language :lol[/QUOTE]

No. There is a certain iq level that needs to be met for me to seriously acknowledge a post. I’m done teaching idiots basic concepts.

That minimum level was not met by Carbine so he’s not going to get a real response. He can try again and make a better post and I’ll think about it.

[QUOTE=warriorfan;15028634]No. There is a certain iq level that needs to be met for me to seriously acknowledge a post. I’m done teaching idiots basic concepts.

That minimum level was not met by Carbine so he’s not going to get a real response. He can try again and make a better post and I’ll think about it.[/QUOTE]

Okay well you said this:

[QUOTE]That is why we use a combination of them[/QUOTE]

As if those combinations are actually used all at once and not selectively based on whatever is trying to be said :lol

Tomorrow we'll be hearing about how someone is better than Pippen based on PPG and FG% in separate 6 series game series in different years.

I'm sure you've noticed how that "combination" is conspicuously absent here. Wouldn't fit. Right now it's all about VORP, PER, BPM, and WS over a regular season sample. That will change quick.

[QUOTE=Carbine;15028599]I don't think you understand. No surprise with your agenda. All logic thrown out the window when it comes to Lebron or Curry.

Every stat 3ball used

VORP
PER
WS/48
BPM

They all paint the exact same picture. Lebron was miles ahead of whoever is second in each of those categories for the regular season and ahead even more in the post season.

Curry isn't even in the lead for the playoffs in some of these categories (4th is WS/48 and 2nd in VORP)

The picture that's trying to be painted here is not what he thinks it is.[/QUOTE]


Stats aren't enough when we're talking about 1st options, since the playing style/skillset of a 1st option dictates the team's brand of ball, chemistry, fits, and therefore the team's potential ceiling.. i.e. an off-ball player like Duncan, Curry, MJ or Shaq allow ball movement systems, as required for dynasties (the best basketball) - their superior chemistry elevates teammates to play to their maximum capacity.. Contrastingly, the ball-dominance of Luka and Lebron imposes spot-up roles that prevent chemistry and top teammate performance, with rare exception.

Finally, excessive ball-dominance can't beat top teams, so ball-dominators struggle to successfully carry the scoring load against top teams.. Their inability to carry the "star" category of scoring requires more stars, which prevents GM's from getting the right defenders/others, aka elite roster construction.. Without elite roster construction, ball-dominators can't win with "normal" rosters of 1 franchise player (organically).. This is why I predicted years ago that Luka would need to team up with other franchise players to win.. He has done this by teaming up with Kyrie and now Lebron.

[I]TLDR: Unlike 1st options who dictate brand of ball, chemistry, roster construction and team ceiling, 2nd options are essentially stat robots that produce as much as they can within the 1st option's brand of ball - therefore, their stats can be compared directly, such as Mo vs Klay... Since Mo easily outproduced Klay, it confirms that Curry had a 1-man team just like 09' Lebron, and actually did more with less (73 wins with a lower producer than Mo)... Carry on[/I]

But by your very own metrics, Klay was not the second best player on the team. Draymond was.

Either way, if you want to go that route, why are you limiting it to just the regular season?

The playoffs matter much more, considering this is where seasons end or continue on. If you're going to judge Lebron for failing to win (in the playoffs) then the playoff stats should carry BY FAR the most weight, if not all the weight.

Isn't it easier to make the argument that Mo absolutely shit himself like no other "second option" has in the last 25 years?

Using YOUR stats, MO was

VORP = 0.3 (I know this is a accumulation stat but 0.3 is awful)
BPM = 0.4
Ws/48 = .103
PER = 13

These are significant declines across the board for the time period in which you want to criticize Lebron for (losing in the playoffs)

I think the point is Klay and Dray were made by the warriors system. Dray much moreso than Klay... he was a 2nd round pick crashout that landed in the perfect scenario. Klay could at least be an All Star elsewhere but we're talking Jeff Hornacek production without the dimes.

The facts remain the facts though. The Cavs were +300 title favorites in 2010 and the Warriors were +2800 underdogs in 2015. They were underdogs in 2016 as well.

A gigantic mountain of a difference.

Guess who won?

[QUOTE=Carbine;15028807]

But by your very own metrics, Klay was not the second best player on the team. Draymond was.

[/Quote]


Klay was 2nd option

And tons of bench guys or low usage guys have high advanced metrics - these stats are all based on an individual's offensive rating (ORTG), and the creators of these stats say that ORTG can only be compared among players with the same usage/role... So the advanced stats of Mo must be compared to players of similar usage/role, aka Klay.



[QUOTE=Carbine;15028807]

Either way, if you want to go that route, why are you limiting it to just the regular season?


[/Quote]


The point is that since Mo easily outproduced Klay, it confirms that Curry's 73-win team was a 1-man team just like 09' Lebron, and that Curry did more with less (73 wins with a lower producer than Mo)...

Since Curry's Warriors were a 1-man team, Lebron and Kyrie's upset win is a comparable achievement to Dwight or Baron's upsets of 1-man teams in 09' and 07'... Curry's team was like 07' Mavs or 09' Cavs, but simply won a few more games.. The Cavs upset win is actually less impressive than Dwight's or Baron's because they were 1-man teams and the Cavs were a big 3 preseason favorite.

Funny how this 1 man team won 5 games without Curry in the playoffs, while straight up blowing teams out to boot, then came within an eyelash of winning the Finals despite Curry having one of the worst Finals ever for a superstar.

[QUOTE=tpols;15028808]I think the point is Klay and Dray were made by the warriors system. Dray much moreso than Klay... he was a 2nd round pick crashout that landed in the perfect scenario. Klay could at least be an All Star elsewhere but we're talking Jeff Hornacek production without the dimes.

The facts remain the facts though. The Cavs were +300 title favorites in 2010 and the Warriors were +2800 underdogs in 2015. They were underdogs in 2016 as well.

A gigantic mountain of a difference.

Guess who won?[/QUOTE]
Which supporting cast would you rather have, the 2010 Cavs or the 2015 Warriors?

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;15028811]Which supporting cast would you rather have, the 2010 Cavs or the 2015 Warriors?[/QUOTE]

All comes down to optimization. Nobody thought the 2015 warriors would win a title much less hit almost 70 wins.

Chemistry matters. Not just team hoppin.

That's a really outlandish thing to say comparing the 09 Cavs and '16 Warriors sans Curry or Lebron

It's really, really, really bad.

Let's use your metrics:

09 Cavs

VORP:

Mo 3.1
West 2
Varejuo 1.5
Wallace 1.2

Nobody else above a 1




VORP '16 Warriors:

Dray 5.3
Klay 2.5
Bogut 1.6
Iggy 1.4

Nobody else above 1


This is over 50 percent better production from the Warriors other good players vs what the Cavs had in this category.



Let's check out BPM

'09 Cavs

Mo 2.3
West 1.7
Wallace 1.6
Varujo 0.6

'16 Warriors


Dray 5.5
Bogut 2.4
Thompson 1.8
Iggy 1.1

Well, they came somewhat close to doubling the production in this category.



WS/48

09 Cavs

.166 varejo
.165 mo
.151 big z
.142 west
.140 Wally z


'16 warrioes

.190 green
.180 Bogut
.171 ezeli
.145 Livingston
.144 Klay




The '07 Cavs is even more of a joke. They had nobody even reach a 2 VORP besides Lebron and just one person broke above a 1 BPM besides Lebron.

These stats are really unkind to a guy like Iggy as well. I watched these guys play all the time live during this time and Iggy was an extremely important player for them but these 3ball stats make it seem like he was a slightly below average NBA player.

[QUOTE=Carbine;15028814]That's a really outlandish thing to say comparing the 09 Cavs and '16 Warriors sans Curry or Lebron

It's really, really, really bad.

Let's use your metrics:

09 Cavs

VORP:

Mo 3.1
West 2
Varejuo 1.5
Wallace 1.2

Nobody else above a 1




VORP '16 Warriors:

Dray 5.3
Klay 2.5
Bogut 1.6
Iggy 1.4

Nobody else above 1


This is over 50 percent better production from the Warriors other good players vs what the Cavs had in this category.



Let's check out BPM

'09 Cavs

Mo 2.3
West 1.7
Wallace 1.6
Varujo 0.6

'16 Warriors


Dray 5.5
Bogut 2.4
Thompson 1.8
Iggy 1.1

Well, they came somewhat close to doubling the production in this category.



WS/48

09 Cavs

.166 varejo
.165 mo
.151 big z
.142 west
.140 Wally z


'16 warrioes

.190 green
.180 Bogut
.171 ezeli
.145 Livingston
.144 Klay




The '07 Cavs is even more of a joke. They had nobody even reach a 2 VORP besides Lebron and just one person broke above a 1 BPM besides Lebron.

These stats are really unkind to a guy like Iggy as well. I watched these guys play all the time live during this time and Iggy was an extremely important player for them but these 3ball stats make it seem like he was a slightly below average NBA player.[/QUOTE]

What are you talking about dude? Non-first options are stat robots that don’t contribute things on the court outside of that

:lol

[QUOTE=Carbine;15028814]That's a really outlandish thing to say comparing the 09 Cavs and '16 Warriors sans Curry or Lebron

It's really, really, really bad.

Let's use your metrics:

09 Cavs

VORP:

Mo 3.1
West 2
Varejuo 1.5
Wallace 1.2

Nobody else above a 1




VORP '16 Warriors:

Dray 5.3
Klay 2.5
Bogut 1.6
Iggy 1.4

Nobody else above 1


This is over 50 percent better production from the Warriors other good players vs what the Cavs had in this category.



Let's check out BPM

'09 Cavs

Mo 2.3
West 1.7
Wallace 1.6
Varujo 0.6

'16 Warriors


Dray 5.5
Bogut 2.4
Thompson 1.8
Iggy 1.1

Well, they came somewhat close to doubling the production in this category.



WS/48

09 Cavs

.166 varejo
.165 mo
.151 big z
.142 west
.140 Wally z


'16 warrioes

.190 green
.180 Bogut
.171 ezeli
.145 Livingston
.144 Klay




The '07 Cavs is even more of a joke. They had nobody even reach a 2 VORP besides Lebron and just one person broke above a 1 BPM besides Lebron.

These stats are really unkind to a guy like Iggy as well. I watched these guys play all the time live during this time and Iggy was an extremely important player for them but these 3ball stats make it seem like he was a slightly below average NBA player.[/QUOTE]


Klay destroys Mo, so that offsets the minor gaps you showed above for the low usage players - Lebron and Mo's "others"' stack up pretty well despite Lebron lacking the skill to produce the teammate-elevating ball movement system that Curry produced..

Ultimately, splitting hairs over the stats of low usage "bit" players and system players makes my point about the Warriors and Cavs being 1-man teams.. As soon as you start comparing the stats of bums, you lost and proved that the Warriors/Cavs were 1-man teams.

Btw, Draymond is a low usage system player that wouldn't start on most teams if he was drafted anywhere outside of Curry's era-changing system and brand of ball - most players say this... Draymond simply had a good slot in the system - anyone has good plus minus in that role.. It"s similar to Kukoc being 4th in the league for plus/minus during the 2nd three-peat but then cratering to a massive negative in 1999 without a winning system to give him a winning position/role/advanced numbers.. This is how advanced stats work for low usage and low ppg players..