Better at basketball, Jokić or Kobe?

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15031173]Jordan and Jokic have a great argument for #1.


He's a top tier scorer with legendary efficiency, but I wouldn't put him in the discussion for best scorer ever


Magic, Jokic, & Nash all have great arguments for greatest passer ever. Those are my top 3.


Jokic is clearly a better offensive player & Bird's defense certainly isn't going to make up ground to put him ahead of Jokic as a player overall. Give me Jokic.[/QUOTE]I agree with all of that except for the Bird part. Their defense is comparable, and that's with me being charitable towards Bird because Jokic actually has very good defensive advanced stats and neither pass the eye test to be considered 'good'. And the more I'm going through some of these old articles the more it seems like Bird is actually overrated- he was relatable in his introverted personality and has really cool one-liner quotables- and guys like Moses Malone are very underrated these days. Bird just didn't seem to have a 5 year stretch where the majority of fans and media thought he was bitw. His dominance for his respective era just doesn't match Jokic's when you start putting Bird's career under a fraction of the microscope modern athletes are subjected to.

[QUOTE=Baller234;15031199]2001-2004:

- Players faced zone coverage
- Handchecking and physicality allowed
- Minimal floor spacing

2025:

- Players face man coverage
- Minimal physicality is allowed
- Omnipresent floor spacing

And you think it's a totally smart idea to put these numbers side by side.

You definitely never played growing up. You were the water boy.

Go get the water bottles.[/QUOTE]
I mean if you honestly think Kobe is as good of a shooter as Durant just lol. You can give Kobe a boost for era and he'd still be behind.

[QUOTE=j3lademaster;15031190]Admittedly, middies are easier to get these days which KD is all time elite at. He's also a 40% 3 point shooter that you have to close out on, so he can go under the closeout and take a mid range shot before help can come. Besides, the real defense comes playoff time that's why all of the scores get lower.[/QUOTE]

When talking 2pt and 3pt shots....KD's the greatest shooter of all time

[QUOTE=Baller234;15031191]And how was prime Kobe at getting "middies"?

I'm curious.[/QUOTE]

He would eat. You're talking to a guy who idolized Kobe growing up, who almost broke his jumpshot in high school trying to imitate Kobe's form.

But you would also have to acknowledge that it's much harder to play defense today since this isn't football where players only play one side of the ball. It's way more physically and mentally taxing which is why modern stars are only playing lower minutes and load managing their amount of games.

[QUOTE=Hey Yo;15031202]When talking 2pt and 3pt shots....KD's the greatest shooter of all time[/QUOTE]

When factoring size and the ease he gets those shots in a game- I absolutely agree.

[QUOTE=tpols;15031197]Nash offensive impact stats had to have been higher than Kobes as well I'd assume. He was leading #1 offense every single year. But in the playoffs Kobe outplayed him. I could see a similar thing happening with Jokic.[/QUOTE]

Hard to say Kobe straight up outplayed him in their '06 matchup. Could make an argument for both.

That game 6 was a heart break loss for me. I remember that game clearly. Tim Thomas hit a huge shot to send it to OT.

[QUOTE=Hey Yo;15031202]When talking 2pt and 3pt shots....KD's the greatest shooter of all time[/QUOTE]


Sure let's just ignore that Stephs career EFG is 3% higher. :facepalm

[QUOTE=tontoz;15031207]Sure let's just ignore that Stephs career EFG is 3% higher. :facepalm[/QUOTE]

I think he meant combination of midrange 2's and 3's.

[QUOTE=j3lademaster;15031203]He would eat. You're talking to a guy who idolized Kobe growing up, who almost broke his jumpshot in high school trying to imitate Kobe's form.

But you would also have to acknowledge that it's much harder to play defense today since this isn't football where players only play one side of the ball. It's way more physically and mentally taxing which is why modern stars are only playing lower minutes and load managing their amount of games.[/QUOTE]

Kobe in his prime was a great athlete, I'm pretty sure he could play defense in 2025. Either way, you know he's gonna give it 100% on both sides of the ball. You're a Kobe fan so you should know.

And like I said multiple times, I was NOT a Kobe fan growing up. But you still have to respect the man's game. People assume that I'm going this hard because I'm a Kobe stan but I'm really just doing it out of respect. It's actually blasphemous the way these young kids like 3tard talk. So eager to crown guys who haven't done shit yet.

[QUOTE=j3lademaster;15031200]I agree with all of that except for the Bird part. Their defense is comparable, and that's with me being charitable towards Bird because Jokic actually has very good defensive advanced stats and neither pass the eye test to be considered 'good'. And the more I'm going through some of these old articles the more it seems like Bird is actually overrated- he was relatable in his introverted personality and has really cool one-liner quotables- and guys like Moses Malone are very underrated these days. Bird just didn't seem to have a 5 year stretch where the majority of fans and media thought he was bitw. His dominance for his respective era just doesn't match Jokic's when you start putting Bird's career under a fraction of the microscope modern athletes are subjected to.[/QUOTE]

My point was, even if you think Bird is the better defender, it isn't going to make up ground because Jokic's offense is simply on another level. Bird actually made an All-Defensive Team one year and was always known as a good team defender and even a solid post defender, but his defense wasn't anything to go crazy over. His man defense on the perimeter was always suspect.

[QUOTE=tontoz;15031207]Sure let's just ignore that Stephs career EFG is 3% higher. :facepalm[/QUOTE]

He's more a 3pt specialist who hasn't taken enough mid range shots to claim he's the best all around shooter.

2pt only = MJ
3pt = Steph
anywhere inside 28ft = KD

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15031210]My point was, even if you think Bird is the better defender, it isn't going to make up ground because Jokic's offense is simply on another level. Bird actually made an All-Defensive Team one year and was always known as a good team defender and even a solid post defender, but his defense wasn't anything to go crazy over. His man defense on the perimeter was always suspect.[/QUOTE]

Suspect?

What does that say about Yolk's defense then?

[QUOTE=Baller234;15031209]Kobe in his prime was a great athlete, I'm pretty sure he could play defense in 2025. Either way, you know he's gonna give it 100% on both sides of the ball. You're a Kobe fan so you should know.

And like I said multiple times, I was NOT a Kobe fan growing up. But you still have to respect the man's game. People assume that I'm going this hard because I'm a Kobe stan but I'm really just doing it out of respect. It's actually blasphemous the way these young kids like 3tard talk. So eager to crown guys who haven't done shit yet.[/QUOTE]
Kobe didn't give 100% on defense when he did play but sure he'd magically do it now when it requires even more effort. Mamba mythologists at it again.

Jokic hasn't done shit? He's already led his team to a ring in a fashion Kobe simply couldn't have done. You seriously think Kobe wins on the 23 Nuggets in place of Jokic? :oldlol: It's not my fault you hate stats and buy into ESPN narratives, the fact is Kobe is the only guy we are supposed to just ignore stats for, all the other players who get ranked that highly, advanced stats love them. Maybe, just maybe, Kobe was overrated.

[QUOTE=Baller234;15031212]Suspect?

What does that say about Yolk's defense then?[/QUOTE]

Nobody here is calling Jokic a Hakeem level defender. If that was the case, he would be the clear GOAT.

[QUOTE=RRR3;15031213]Kobe didn't give 100% on defense when he did play but sure he'd magically do it now when it requires even more effort. Mamba mythologists at it again.

Jokic hasn't done shit? He's already led his team to a ring in a fashion Kobe simply couldn't have done. You seriously think Kobe wins on the 23 Nuggets in place of Jokic? :oldlol: It's not my fault you hate stats and buy into ESPN narratives, the fact is Kobe is the only guy we are supposed to just ignore stats for, all the other players who get ranked that highly, advanced stats love them. Maybe, just maybe, Kobe was overrated.[/QUOTE]

You can't just replace Yolk with Kobe because Murray's game doesn't mesh with Kobe's. That would be like pairing Yolk with Gasol.

But if you replaced Murray with Kobe, and then gave him a decent big man that's around equal to Murray in value, then of course he has a shot to win with that roster. None of Kobe's championships teams ever had that kind of firepower. Kobe was never on a team where four guys can go off for 20 in the same game.

And for the third time, don't take it up with me, take it up with Pat Riley. The schmuck that doesn't know anything about basketball.