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[QUOTE=steve]The example is a bit extreme, but there's no definable answer there, but it hasn't stopped people from debating it. It's more imaginative and creative to debate something that doesn't have a definitive answer, at least to me anyway.[/QUOTE]
A debate about God though it may be long and drawn out, comes down to: either you believe he exists or you don't. Plain and simple. A debate about the GOAT comes down to facts, figures and accomplishments. All of which Jordan holds a lot.
[QUOTE=haterofhaters]A debate about God though it may be long and drawn out, comes down to: either you believe he exists or you don't. Plain and simple. A debate about the GOAT comes down to facts, figures and accomplishments. All of which Jordan holds a lot.[/QUOTE]
The one thing he holds above most other players is scoring average. And did compete against other greats? No. So how exactly then is he the indisputable greatest basketball player of all time?
[QUOTE=haterofhaters]A debate about God though it may be long and drawn out, comes down to: either you believe he exists or you don't. [B]Plain and simple.[/B] A debate about the GOAT comes down to facts, figures and accomplishments. All of which Jordan holds a lot.[/QUOTE]
I agree, basketball talk is nice and easy!
Though I suspect you may not have discovered the world of philosophy yet. :)
Epistemology, Transcendental Idealism, Moral philosophy, autonomy of reason, etc. all await you. You will never think that religion to be plain and simple again, at least from an intellectual level!
BTW - If you want your head to hurt try to work yourself up to Kant, something like "A Critique of Pure Reason". Will give you a whole new reason to hate smart people!
hahahaha i create quite the argument hear.
MJ IS THE BEST I WAS JUST JOSHING AND YOU CAN BAG ME OR WATEVA I DONT CARE
IM THE NEXT LEBRON look me up oj mayo its me baby
First post so go easy on me:)
I'm half for and half against this thread(I hope that made sense)
Anyway I think this thread adresses the fact that the bball society of today always down-plays the accomplishments of todays established or up and coming stars (e.g: kobe, vince, dwade, A.I., etc.) since they have witnessed the greatness of MJ. It's kinda like living in a high-class hotel for the past 18 years and then ending up living in the slums after your hotel stay is done. Ever since MJ's 2nd retirement in 98 (w/c was so sad that I actually didn't watch an NBA game for almost 2 years) people have always looked for the "next MJ". They've pressured guys like grant hill, Iverson, VC, and Kobe to be the next MJ w/c in the end is almost impossible. Whenever they do something great or amazing (Kobe 81 pts, Iverson leading sixers to NBA finals, etc.) there are always some people who will try and degrade this accomplishments by comparing it to his airness. They always end-up saying, "Well MJ did this..." or "Mike had a tougher time during the..." Which look at the "next great player" and accept him for who he is and not try to compare him, or worse, try to make him into someone who he will never be (Lebron, Melo, Wade).
The thing that I don't appreciate about this thread is how it down-plays Mike's accomplishments. i don't whether your Bush himself but no one (and I mean no one:no: !) has the right to undermine the "Great one's" accomplishments and what he did for the game. Hell!!! his the reason why I fell head over heels in-love with the game.:bowdown:
[QUOTE=Younggrease] What give Jordan the nod over Kareem, Magic, Bill Russel, Wilt etc... There really isnt much. People need to stop saying Jordan is the GOAT like it is a fact.[/QUOTE]
It may not be fact but it is the overwhelming consensus among fans/commentators/former players/coaches, generally anyone who's watched the game or been around the league for decades.
:)
[QUOTE=haterofhaters]That's Kobe?:oldlol:[/QUOTE]
LOL! When I wrote the post, I was also posting on the Laker game thread so I had Kobe on my mind... haha.
[QUOTE]A debate about the GOAT comes down to facts, figures and accomplishments. All of which Jordan holds a lot.[/QUOTE]
A debate about the GOAT comes down to how people view these facts. Bill Russell has 11 titles. Nobody among the GOAT candidates comes even close. He also has 5 MVP's, statistic titles and is widely considered as the GOAT defender. But not many people view his accomplishments in accordance with today's era. As a result, Russell
[QUOTE]why debate something without the intention of having a conclusive answer?[/QUOTE]
The thing isn't whether you have the intention to get a conclusive answer, but whether there is such a thing and whether this is accepted by all people whose opinions matter. And for most of these debates, there isn't. The only way you can be called the GOAT without much of a debate is to dominate like nobody else in history in just about any statistical category [B]and [/B]dominate like nobody else in team titles of your era [B]and [/B]do this with the toughest individual and team competition (of course, finding who had the better competition is a tough task by itself). As long as such a thing didn't happen (and is very unlikely to ever happen) in basketball, there will always be room for debate, at least among people who know the sport.
[QUOTE=Psileas]
And an objection:
[B]Quite contrary to some, I don't see more Magic fans calling Magic the GOAT than Bird ones. Go to Youtube videos' comments, Larry Bird tributes' comments, or comments in other sites like rateitall.com and you'll see a lot of [B]very [/B]high Bird praise, moreso than Magic, imo.[/QUOTE][/B]
that's interesting because i grew up in new england, and at this point i know literally NO ONE from home who believes that bird is better than jordan. not even my older relatives who dogged me for being a jordan fan in the 80s and told me he wasn't a good enough teammate to ever be as good bird. they've all swung around. do they think bird's better than magic? well yeah. their new england homers. i wonder if the youtube market is young enough that they have seen some jordan weakenesses (particularly with the wiz) but only ever seen bird highlight film? could be racially motivated too, i guess. i was more speaking from what i had seen here.
the only names i've heard mentioned ahead of jordan on this board are magic (by several lakers fans), wilt (by you), russell (by one very young poster trying his damnedest to run down michael), bird (by one poster who i believe had celtics or bird in his user name), kobe (by a few people - possibly dummy accounts held by mark jackson and that girl from espn), shaq (one or two), and lebron, but of them all magic is the name i've heard the most from posters i take seriously. oh, and for the record (again), i have no issue whatsoever with people finding another goat, be it magic, larry, wilt, or kobe, as long as they've got good rationale behind the pick.
I think the one thing we are forgetting is the defense that Jordan played. How many people in the league today play defense the way Jordan did and can still put up large numbers? One person, Marion, and we can all agree that he is no Jordan(I'm not bashing Marion, I think he is great). And what is all this crap about being in the right place at the right time? Every era is different in the way the game is played. You say it is harder to play today and that makes the likes of Kobe and Wade better. How is it harder? Jordan played against Magic, Bird, Barkley, Stockton, Malone and many other great players who could teach some people today a few lessons. People make the case that Bird and Magic are the best players but in the next breath say that Jordan didn't play against anyone. My dad is a baby boomer and will tell you today that Jordan is the best player to grace the hardwood and in my twenty two years I cannot deny it. Jordan played an all around game, he rebounded the ball, passed the ball, blocked shots, stole passes and picked pockets, he took the ball into the paint and wasn't afraid of the Ewings, he crossed up the gaurds and floated the ball over the forwards. If you can find another player who does all of that, day in and day out while keeping his teammates involved then you might have a case for an arguement.
[QUOTE]I think the one thing we are forgetting is the defense that Jordan played. How many people in the league today play defense the way Jordan did and can still put up large numbers? One person, Marion, and we can all agree that he is no Jordan(I'm not bashing Marion, I think he is great). And what is all this crap about being in the right place at the right time? Every era is different in the way the game is played. You say it is harder to play today and that makes the likes of Kobe and Wade better. How is it harder? Jordan played against Magic, Bird, Barkley, Stockton, Malone and many other great players who could teach some people today a few lessons. People make the case that Bird and Magic are the best players but in the next breath say that Jordan didn't play against anyone. My dad is a baby boomer and will tell you today that Jordan is the best player to grace the hardwood and in my twenty two years I cannot deny it. Jordan played an all around game, he rebounded the ball, passed the ball, blocked shots, stole passes and picked pockets, he took the ball into the paint and wasn't afraid of the Ewings, he crossed up the gaurds and floated the ball over the forwards. If you can find another player who does all of that, day in and day out while keeping his teammates involved then you might have a case for an arguement.[/QUOTE]
Well, here are some of these Larry Bird comments I had found. To be honest, I thought Magic had a somewhat smaller "GOAT voters" core in the 1st link. Still, Bird got high praises and, as you'll see, he's the most talked about player after Jordan:
[url]http://www.rateitall.com/i-20833-larry-bird.aspx[/url]
Another old but good link:
[url]http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/1998/bird/yourturn/[/url]
I'll tell you this though: In Europe, Magic, instead of Wilt is the next most popular choice for GOAT after Jordan. The reason is
1) Europe has seen even less footage from prior to Magic's era. Magic and Bird first made NBA basketball popular in Europe. They looked at the Showtime Lakers and Bird's Celtics at awe. They didn't have the chance to evaluate older teams, however.
2) Many Europeans respect the prior to 80's years even less than their US peers and obviously have a shallower knowledge of American basketball (I've even seen known journalists using the "6-7 center" argument for the 60's).
3) Europe favors the team game more and Magic used to be a "pure basketball" journalists' dream player.
[QUOTE=w00terz]This thread is f*cking moronic. Jordan is quite possibly the GOAT, behind Wilt Chamberlain. Putting Wade in the same sentence as Jordan is a joke.[/QUOTE]
Wilt wasn't even better than Shaq. MJ has more 50+, 40+, 30+ games than anyone in history in the PLAYOFFS. He also has the most finals mvp's and the only player to average 30+ in the season, playoffs and finals. No one compares to him.
[QUOTE]Wilt wasn't even better than Shaq. MJ has more 50+, 40+, 30+ games than anyone in history in the PLAYOFFS. He also has the most finals mvp's and the only player to average 30+ in the season, playoffs and finals. No one compares to him.[/QUOTE]
Wilt was better than Shaq all things considered (that's for another topic), x-point playoff records are not the only ones that count (Wilt and Russell own the rebounding records and, practically, the blocked shots ones too, Magic holds the assist and triple-doubles records) and Bill Russell would have 7-8 Finals' MVP's had they existed back then.
This deserves a second posting, since people ignored the obvious.
[QUOTE]SportsCentury is an Emmy award-winning ESPN biography program that reviews the people and athletic events that defined sports in North America throughout the 20th and 21st centuries.
In 1999, ESPN counted down the Top 50 Athletes of the 20th Century, voted on by a panel of sports journalists and observers, premiering a new biography highlighting each top athlete every week throughout the year.
Research for SportsCentury include more than 1,000 interviews, 50,000 photos, and 100,000 newspaper artifacts.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]SportsCentury: Top 100 Athletes of the 20th Century
[B][SIZE="4"]# 1. Michael Jordan[/SIZE][/B]
# 2. Babe Ruth
# 3. Muhammad Ali
# 4. Jim Brown
# 5. Wayne Gretzky
# 6. Jesse Owens
# 7. Jim Thorpe
# 8. Willie Mays
# 9. Jack Nicklaus
# 10. Babe Didrikson
# 11. Joe Louis
# 12. Carl Lewis
# 13. Wilt Chamberlain
# 14. Hank Aaron
# 15. Jackie Robinson
# 16. Ted Williams
# 17. Magic Johnson
# 18. Bill Russell
# 19. Martina Navratilova
# 20. Ty Cobb
# 21. Gordie Howe
# 22. Joe DiMaggio
# 23. Jackie Joyner-Kersee
# 24. Sugar Ray Robinson
# 25. Joe Montana[/QUOTE]
Close thread.
[QUOTE=Psileas]Wilt was better than Shaq all things considered (that's for another topic), x-point playoff records are not the only ones that count (Wilt and Russell own the rebounding records and, practically, the blocked shots ones too, Magic holds the assist and triple-doubles records) and Bill Russell would have 7-8 Finals' MVP's had they existed back then.[/QUOTE]
It doesn't matter if Russell would have had 7-8 finals mvp's, the fact remains is that he doesn't. And when he played their were only 2 playoff rounds, which makes it quite easy to win titles.
Who cares about rebound records? What did they do in the finals? Wilt averaged 11.7 ppg in the finals one year and never averaged 30 ppg in any finals. That's pathetic for a guy whose main focus was scoring in a fast paced era.
Shaq has 3 finals MVP's and is 3rd all time in finals ppg. Wilt isn't as good nor does he care when it matters most.