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[QUOTE=Shep]what? bryant's highest four years of TS% were the four years he's played without shaq :lol [/quote]
Give Kobe a normal amount of FT's (say, 7-8/gm) as opposed to the absurd amount he's received (10+) the past several years based on his style of play (80% of his shots are jumpers) and see how his "TS%" looks. This is why Kobe fans like to point to TS%.
[QUOTE=Loki]Give Kobe a normal amount of FT's (say, 7-8/gm) as opposed to the absurd amount he's received (10+) the past several years and see how his "TS%" looks.
LOL @ [B]a guy whose shot attempts consist of 80% jumpers[/B] getting to the line 10+ times per year. This is why Kobe fans like to point to TS%.[/QUOTE]
Obviously you haven't watched too many Lakers game this year -- and certainly not in the playoffs. Dude is scoring everywhere on the court... 3pointers, jumpers, slashing, posting up, in transition. WTF, are you talking about?
[QUOTE=Shepseskaf]There are way too many stats in this thread. Stats have their place, but they never tell the entire story.
For people who somehow think that Kobe > MJ, do yourself a favor and find a site that sells games on DVD. Then watch some of Jordan's best games along with Kobe's best games. Your eyes will not deceive you -- the gulf between the two is very wide. And I'm saying this as a Kobe fan.[/QUOTE]
Not that wide, in fact probably even on offense. Jordan's biggest edge over his peers was his consistency -- he was money in the bank everynight. MJ was consistently on his A game more than almost any other player who has ever played. But if you match his best vs Kobe's best, then i don't think it's that wide at all.
[QUOTE=chopchop20]Obviously you haven't watched too many Lakers game this year -- and certainly not in the playoffs. Dude is scoring everywhere on the court... 3pointers, jumpers, slashing, posting up, in transition. WTF, are you talking about?[/QUOTE]
How about you read the quote I was responding to, which clearly said "the last 4 years." Thanks.
EDIT: And yeah, he's been more aggressive this year -- only 75% of his attempts were jumpers as opposed to 80% the past few seasons. :oldlol:
[QUOTE=chopchop20]Not that wide, in fact probably even on offense. Jordan's biggest edge over his peers was his consistency -- he was money in the bank everynight. MJ was consistently on his A game more than almost any other player who has ever played. But if you match his best vs Kobe's best, then i don't think it's that wide at all.[/QUOTE]
I said that the gulf was wide, and that's what I meant. Your point about Jordan's consistency is true, but that wasn't what I was referring to. The difference, to me, is in the subtleties of MJ's game and the apparent ease of execution that Kobe simply can't match.
While both were capable of scoring at prodigious rates, its easy to see MJ's superiority when you look at the games. Even the so-called advantage Kobe has from longer range is negated by the fact that MJ never really focused on that aspect of his game, preferring to go inside. The first half of the 1992 Finals against Portland, when he scored 35 in the first half, with six three pointers, is a case in point.
If you haven't watched MJ's games on a fairly recent basis, then I can't accept your analysis.
[QUOTE=Shepseskaf]I said that the gulf was wide, and that's what I meant. Your point about Jordan's consistency is true, but that wasn't what I was referring to. [B]The difference, to me, is in the subtleties of MJ's game and the apparent ease of execution that Kobe simply can't match[/B].
While both were capable of scoring at prodigious rates, its easy to see MJ's superiority when you look at the games. Even the so-called advantage Kobe has from longer range is negated by the fact that MJ never really focused on that aspect of his game, preferring to go inside. The first half of the 1992 Finals against Portland, when he scored 35 in the first half, with six three pointers, is a case in point.
If you haven't watched MJ's games on a fairly recent basis, then I can't accept your analysis.[/QUOTE]
I agree, especially with the bolded portion. Picc84 actually had a great quote about this difference between them, quoted below (this post was made in April of '07):
[quote=picc84]Jordan makes the game as easy as possible for himself, and makes it look as easy as possible. Kobe looks like he tries to make it as HARD for himself as possible. Jordan looks like he's playing in rec games the way he weaves between everywhere and does whatever he wants. Kobe looks like he's playing in an NBA game. Which isnt bad, since thats what he's really doing. But its not Jordan.[/quote]
That summarizes the difference in feeling I have when watching each of them play.
[QUOTE=iamgine]Obviously current Kobe. [B]I'd prefer to watch Mike again though.[/QUOTE][/B]
If you actually watched Mike, the obviously would be the other way around.
Kobe can't even get to the hole currently. His game right now is jump into a crowd of people and wait for a whistle. He's currently so unathletic it is a joke.
MJ was a freak of nature.
'84 MJ would take out current Kobe, '87 MJ would laugh at him.
[QUOTE=StoneCold]Actually, this is kobe's [B]12th year[/B] & you're [I][B]ABSOLUTELY[/B][/I] right!!
And I've already [B]PROVEN[/B] that [B][I][U]OVERALL[/U][/I][/B], MJ's [B][I]ROOKIE[/I][/B] season [B][I][U]TROUNCES[/U][/I][/B] any season kobe has [B][I]EVER[/I][/B] had in a previous post on this thread..
If U have to compare a [B]ROOKIE[/B] or [B]Wizard's[/B] MJ to Kobe to get a favorable comparison, that [I][B]IN ITSELF[/B][/I], not only highlights how [B][U][I]TRULY[/I][/U][/B] desperate kobe fans are to find a way around the [B]FACTS[/B] regarding this absurd comparison, but it really shows their [B][I][U]DESPERATION[/U][/I][/B] in trying to prove kobe is #1 [B][I]ALL TIME[/I][/B] or at least in the running for that honor, but they keep getting [B][I][U]BLINDSIDED[/U][/I][/B] by a little something called [I][B][U]FACTS[/U][/B][/I], that'll continue to blow their silly & [B][I]UNINFORMED[/I][/B] argument, which is nothing more than their [I][B]"opinions"[/B][/I] to begin with, out of the water [B][I][U]EVERYTIME[/U][/I][/B] & [I][U][B]PROVE[/B][/U][/I] them [B]WRONG[/B] in the process..
Hey kobe homers, ask yourselves this question: If kobe's the better player, "[B]WHY"[/B] do U have to [B][U]CONSTANTLY[/U][/B] use MJ as the measuring stick to determine [B]"HOW"[/B] good kobe is & [B]"WHERE"[/B] he ranks in the Pantheon of Guards?
That [B][U]OUGHT[/U][/B] to tell U something is wrong about your claims regarding him being so much better than MJ!! If he truly were better, in 12 yrears of play, his offensive & defensive resume would've been [B][U]FAR[/U][/B] beyond anything MJ [B][U]EVER[/U][/B] did! But it's not!
In [B]FACT[/B], the changes to the Defensive Rules is what has [B][U]ALLOWED[/U][/B] kobe to even be included in this argument..
[B][U]Kobe Bryant in years that handchecking was allowed:[/U][/B]
561 games - 21.77 ppg on 42% shooting
[B][U]Kobe Bryant in the final 3 years handchecking was allowed (2001-04)[/U][/B]
227 games - 24.29ppg on 43% shooting
[B][U]Kobe Bryant
[QUOTE=Scott Pippen][B][COLOR="Sienna"][COLOR="Sienna"]Let's just start off by saying one thing: MJ was never
considered the best player because he scored 50 points
for 'x amount' of games against the worst teams during
the regular season. He's considered the greatest
because he played his greatest games against the
greatest teams in the playoffs. Remember, it was just
last year that ESPN banned comparing KB to MJ after
his Game 7 disappearing act.
Now, KB has done some things MJ hasn't done of course
but there are dozens and dozens of feats KB will never
even come close to doing that MJ has done (see
bottom). Single scoring feats are pretty much all he
can try as MJ left that type of game a long time ago
in order to build a better team. If you want to build
an argument, let's put some numbers to back it up.
Your article was all opinion and loose observation.
I'm going to go through your article point by point.
1) Kobe is as good a defender. OK, right there, I
almost stopped reading. Not even the biggest Kobe
homing 12 year old kids will say this. In fact, they
point that this is Kobe's biggest gap between him and
MJ. It's actually safe to say that MJ at age 40 was a
better defender than KB is now. MJ at age 40 averaged
MORE steals AND blocks than KB now at fewer minutes
per game. MJ in his prime averaged TWICE as much. MJ
holds the record for most blocks by a guard (131) and
is the first and only guard to record 200 steals and
100 blocks in the same year - twice. He remains
unbreakable here - 9 all-first Defensive awards plus
the DPOY in 1988, steals leader 3 times etc. Not even
close. Kobe's got 4 all-first Defensive awards that
Sports Illustrated calls "dubious at best" -
especially with Shaq covering 3 of them. And, MJ never
let up on his D when he was scoring 50. He was
frenetic on both ends constantly. When KB goes to
offense mode, his D. disappears as his energy is
focused on scoring. I believe he had only 7 steals and
1 block in his 5 game scoring spree - not exactly MJ
material.
2) MJ was a worse teammate and ball hog? Did you get
this quote from a basketball forum? Sure, MJ was a
tough teammate and was also selfish but he had a great
excuse - he was shooting 3-6% better than his team. KB
shoots 3-6 WORSE than LA. Nothing but nonsense here
anyway as players soon picked up their duties around
MJ and he became the best teammate and leader on his
way to 6 rings. As Magic said during MJ's 37.1ppg
season, "We know MJ can score but he needs to make his
teammates better and win" and that's exactly what he
did to squash the selfish-ballhog title forever. Now,
if KB can shoot 3-6% better than his team - he has a
license to hog as well. Unfortunately, this 5 game
streak was his only license as he has shot a mediocre
45% through his career. MJ had that license for a
decade with his career 50% FG. How can you compare?
You can't.
3) MJ would have problems playing with Shaq? I guess
you missed his interview in Cigar: "Give me a 7-footer
like Shaq and I'd still be playing today". MJ knew it
was all about the rings.
4) Best player argument? Sure, KB is the best right
now. But, that argument might be good for 2 of his 11
years. That doesn't hold water for the rest of NBA
history nor does it hold water against MJ's dominance
for a decade and a half. And, plenty of people will
argue for Shaq, Wade, Duncan as well still.
5) Today's athletes are bigger, stronger, faster. OK,
you should have checked the stats. MJ played in the
Big Man era - the tallest 4 year span ever was 85-89
with the single tallest year ever in 1987 at 6-7.62
(the year MJ scored 37.1ppg). Today, it's down to
6-7.26, Now, the players today are more wing players
than Big players but that's because of all the MJ
wannabes. You got it right that players are stronger
and faster (weights, more athletic scouting) but that
number has remained steady since MJ's last 3 peat when
he was killing it at ages 33-35. It's EVEN more
impressive that MJ's last 3 peat still had him
dominating when there was still some form of hand
checking allowed. Any strength advantage today's
players have is gone through the no-hand-checks which
remains the single greatest change in the game today.
Don't forget the Jordan Rules as well - the most
destructive defense ever for one player in an era of
no flagrants.
6) NBA is tougher now? You did know it's the 'no
hand-check era'. You do know there were no 'flagrants'
back in the day right? You need to read Lazenby's
"Death of Defense" regarding the no-hand-checks.
[url]http://lakernoise.blogspot.com/2006/...e-article.html[/url]
7) Kobe is surrounded by mediocre talent. True but
look again, KB's team is actually better than you
think and it's easily better than the coke-sniffing
thugs MJ played with early in his career. This is a
topic I that needs another 5 pages so I won't go there
now. Don't forget, Kobe had the best team early in his
career and look what he wanted to give up. Your
argument that Phoenix and the Spurs are better than
the Suns of yesterday are arguable at best. Do they
compare to the Pistons or Knicks on the Eastern end of
MJ's run as well?
8) Hakeem, Admiral, Ewing didn't affect the game like
Shaq and Duncan. Excuse me but MJ ANNIHILATED the
greatest centers INSTEAD OF HAVING THEM ON HIS OWN
TEAM. I'm going to think this was typo - nothing could
be this ignorant. Let's put it this way, MJ played
greater than the greatest centers in an era where
there were still true centers and he ended up denying
all of them rings. MJ ended up with the #1 PER rating
in history - above Wilt, Shaq and Robinson. The reason
why title teams are built around centers is because
they perform at the highest efficiency. MJ defied
logic and performed at an even higher efficiency which is
why he remains the exception - a 'center's
productivity in a guard's package'. One of Kobe's main
problems is that he knows this. That's why he wanted
to get his own team because he knew he could never be
the greatest behind a dominant big man.
Conclusion: Whether you like Kobe or not, he's the
best answer for the best player today and the closest
to MJ in skill. But, that's where it ends. The scoring
bursts against the bottom 26-30 defensive teams are
great but very self-conscious and still nothing
compared to Wilt. Wilt scored over 70 5 times in his
career and he's no MJ either. And, KB has nothing
going on in the playoffs as an individual - the only
place where things matter and the world watches. If MJ
dropped everything to push a scoring feat (dropped
defense, dropped resting minutes, dropped developing
real team chemistry) and all he went for was pushing
50 points - he'd never, ever have won and he wouldn't
be the MJ we know today. He'd just be known as a scorer
in the regular season and as worthless as A-rod in the
real season. But regardless, MJ still owns the most
scoring records as well as ALMOST ALL THE PLAYOFF
Records. Take a look at the all time scoring feats at
the bottom. MJ has 21 of them and the most important
ones, Wilt has 16, Kobe has 1. Take away Wilt and MJ
climbs to 26 and Kobe has 8. Below that are MJ's
records and KB's records. Not ever close.
Again, MJ retired as the greatest playoff performer
ever which is where he solidified himself as the
greatest ever.
It's not repugnant to say someone is better than MJ.
It's just impossible and we can back that all day with
numbers.
Best,
xxxxxx[/COLOR][/COLOR][/B][/QUOTE]
Another great post. Damn...I don't have to write anything.
[QUOTE=Shepseskaf]There are way too many stats in this thread. Stats have their place, but they never tell the entire story.
For people who somehow think that Kobe > MJ, do yourself a favor and find a site that sells games on DVD. Then watch some of Jordan's best games along with Kobe's best games. Your eyes will not deceive you -- the gulf between the two is very wide. And I'm saying this as a Kobe fan.[/QUOTE]
Best advice ever given on ISH. Watch the games. :pimp:
[QUOTE=Da_Realist]Great post. :applause:[/QUOTE]
It's actually a horrible post, but I'll leave it up to you to figure out why.
StoneCold... we're still waiting on you to clarify the stats you posted... Some of them seem... off.
[QUOTE=Loki]I agree, especially with the bolded portion. Picc84 actually had a great quote about this difference between them, quoted below (this post was made in April of '07):
[quote]Originally Posted by picc84
Jordan makes the game as easy as possible for himself, and makes it look as easy as possible. Kobe looks like he tries to make it as HARD for himself as possible. Jordan looks like he's playing in rec games the way he weaves between everywhere and does whatever he wants. Kobe looks like he's playing in an NBA game. Which isnt bad, since thats what he's really doing. But its not Jordan.[/quote]
That summarizes the difference in feeling I have when watching each of them play.[/QUOTE]
Totally agreed. Nice summary of the difference between the two.
[quote=StoneCold]In terms of [B][U]OVERALL[/U][/B] production, forget comparing him to MJ, he doesn't even stack up to Pippen!
[B][U]In 12 seasons for "BOTH" Kobe & Pippen[/U][/B]
[B]Steals[/B]: Pippen 1869 > kobe 1299
[B]Assists[/B]: Pippen 4737 > Kobe 3905
[B]Blocks[/B]: Pippen 802 > Kobe 501
[B]Rebounds[/B]: Pippen 5981 > Kobe 4472
[B]Points: (even with MJ as the 1st Option!)[/B] Pippen 21115 > Kobe 15713
[B]2000 Points in a season[/B] [B](Again, even with MJ as the 1st Option)[/B] Pippen 4 > Kobe 0
[B]80 game seasons[/B] Pippen 5 > Kobe 4
[B]Rings as the 2nd Option[/B]: Pippen 6 > Kobe 3[/quote]
Here's the real stats, I used Pippen's stats from 89-90 (3rd year in league, first as full time starter) to 00-01 and Kobe's whole career, including his 15mpg rookie year. All stats from NBA.com, all all for regular season
Steals: Kobe 1321, Pippen 1850
Assists: Kobe 4002, Pippen 5012
Blocks: Kobe 507, Pippen 765
Boards: Kobe 4590, Pippen 6084
Points: Kobe 21,619, Pippen 15,683
2k point seasons: Kobe 5, Pippen 0 (career high of 1720)
80 game seasons: Kobe 4, Pippen 6 (50 or less games seasons: Kobe 1, Pippen 2)
Other than points, and a few stats here and there, what he posted was accurate.
[QUOTE=MaxFly]It's actually a horrible post, but I'll leave it up to you to figure out why.
StoneCold... we're still waiting on you to clarify the stats you posted... Some of them seem... off.[/QUOTE]
Agreed...there's no way in hell I'd pick a rookie Jordan over Kobe now. I'd have no problems taking an '87 Jordan over an '06 Kobe but really this thread is ridiculous on [b]all[/b] levels. Different eras, different defenses, different players...
[QUOTE=InspiredLebowski]Here's the real stats, I used Pippen's stats from 89-90 (3rd year in league, first as full time starter) to 00-01 and Kobe's whole career, including his 15mpg rookie year. All stats from NBA.com, all all for regular season
Steals: Kobe 1321, Pippen 1850
Assists: Kobe 4002, Pippen 5012
Blocks: Kobe 507, Pippen 765
Boards: Kobe 4590, Pippen 6084
Points: Kobe 21,619, Pippen 15,683
2k point seasons: Kobe 5, Pippen 0 (career high of 1720)
80 game seasons: Kobe 4, Pippen 6 (50 or less games seasons: Kobe 1, Pippen 2)
Other than points, and a few stats here and there, what he posted was accurate.[/QUOTE]
Would you then conclude from those stats that Scottie is the better player than Bryant?