prime dirk vs current durant?

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]He's listing 4 games...

How about all the games in which Terry was much much much much worse?

His problem is that he honestly thinks [B]Dirk is just Terry who scores 10 more ppg[/B]...when in fact Dirk can have an elite offense run through him. He makes everyone better...etc. He just doesn't understand Dirk's value...and he's hell bent on over-rating the shit out of truly one dimensional players like Terry to try and make people think Dirk isn't that good.

Yet, the sad thing is, in his twisted mind he thinks he values overall play...yet his take on Terry is the exact opposite.

So if Terry is better than Gasol...how good must he think Dirk really is? Not only is Dirk a far better scorer than Terry...he's far more clutch...a far better defender/rebounder, and makes his teammates much better...LOL[/QUOTE]

Yea thats the only thing I have a problem with, so thats all ive been trying to achieve in this thread, Dirk is one of the top 5 PFs of all time,

You guys can debate the whole finals series etc between yourselves, i just want to make sure that Dirk gets the credit he has earnt in his time at Dallas, Terry was def good, but he isn't a franchise player like Dirk, thats the difference.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]:facepalm

Dude...he's cherry picking games. LOL

This isn't about who was better in wins in the finals...come on now[/quote]

So what is it about? Wade scored more than Dirk was more efficient and consistent from the field too. Blocked, assisted, and got more steals. When Terry plays well or foul the team follows suit more so than when Dirk plays well or bad. That's an indication of something.

[quote]
Not to mention it all stems from Dirk. Terry can rarely get his own shot...he relies almost exclusively on the Dirk pick and roll to get looks...[/QUOTE]
The pick and roll only works if both players can make something out of it. Dirk is the only player who is suppose to gain from the pick and roll?

[QUOTE=Black and White]Yea thats the only thing I have a problem with, so thats all ive been trying to achieve in this thread, Dirk is one of the top 5 PFs of all time,

You guys can debate the whole finals series etc between yourselves, i just want to make sure that Dirk gets the credit he has earnt in his time at Dallas, Terry was def good, but he isn't a franchise player like Dirk, thats the difference.[/QUOTE]

That's thing. We weren't ever talking about solely the finals...he just shifted the goal posts because he was losing the debate.

It's been about so many other things. You'd never use just 1 series...and even worse...just wins...to determine anything.

It's just facts he's arguing with. The Mavs defense was not great. It was very good overall...and was great at times. Terry was good, but a subpar 2nd option. Those things are really not debatable...

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]I think Dirk was something like 27/10/2...can't remember with Terry

But again...that is cherry picking. It's about the entire playoffs. And it's about the impact they each make.

It's not even remotely close.

Please don't fall for his bullshit. Of course the Mavs win when Terry plays well. That's what happens when you give Dirk a legit 2nd option. [B]If Terry just averaged like 21 ppg like every 2nd option on title winning teams do[/B]...we honestly might have gone undefeated in the playoffs. That is how good Dirk was/is...give him a reliable 2nd fiddle and you can't stop him. Because you have to double him too often and if his teammates can make open shots and a guy can get the offense through the 10 minutes he's not out there...it's very difficult to beat him.

That's the whole point. Terry played like 85% like a normal championship 2nd option...and we won the title. Give Dirk a normal 2nd fiddle and an average championship defense and he's winning multiple titles...even against great competition. Been saying it for years...it happens...title. End of story.[/QUOTE]

This here is a good point, because if LeBron stepped up and played like he normally does Miami probably walk out with the title.....

[QUOTE=Black and White]Whats Dirk and Terrys full stats over the whole series??[/QUOTE]

Nowtizki: 26ppg 9.7rpg 2apg 0.7spg 0.7bpg 2.8tpg 41.6%fg 36.8%3pt 97.8%ft in 40.4mpg

Terry: 18ppg 2rpg 3.2apg 1.3spg 1.3tpg 49.4%fg 39.3%3pt 75%ft in 32.6mpg

[QUOTE=Pointguard]So what is it about? Wade scored more than Dirk was more efficient and consistent from the field too. Blocked, assisted, and got more steals. When Terry plays well or foul the team follows suit more so than when Dirk plays well or bad. That's an indication of something.


The pick and roll only works if both players can make something out of it. Dirk is the only player who is suppose to gain from the pick and roll?[/QUOTE]

When did this become about the finals only?

And are you saying Terry was better overall in the finals? Because he wasn't...

But when did this become about solely that?

You jump around so much it's impossible to follow.

[QUOTE=Legends66NBA7]Nowtizki: 26ppg 9.7rpg 2apg 0.7spg 0.7bpg 2.8tpg 41.6%fg 36.8%3pt 97.8%ft

Terry: 18ppg 2rpg 3.2apg 1.3spg 1.3tpg 49.4%fg 39.3%3pt 75%ft[/QUOTE]

I think that settles it then.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]But Dirk actually isn't...you just say he is. He's a 26/10/3 player for his career in the playoffs on some of the best overall efficiency...and his teams offense is always great.

He does way more than you give him credit for. The contradiction is with you moron. If you value Terry over Gasol...that means you value the things I claim are important you ****ing moron. Terry is like maybe 40% as good as Dirk..maybe...and you have Terry ranked over a 21/11/4 great all around power forward!!!! [/quote]
:lol
Didn't I just write that I said it to sucker you into what you said. You can't read. Dallas only needed a consistent, timely scorer. Dallas had no need for a Pau - they had that covered. I made that very clear, Clown.

[quote]
So obviously you value clutch scoring and efficient offense hugely...way more than I do...because I'd say Gasol is significantly better than terry[/QUOTE]
And by necessity Karl Malone and KG must be significantly better than Dirk.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]When did this become about the finals only?

And are you saying Terry was better overall in the finals? Because he wasn't...

But when did this become about solely that?

You jump around so much it's impossible to follow.[/QUOTE]
Nope I say it everytime I post it. Terry was the more consistent and efficient scorer when they win in the finals. He could score as much as Dirk with 20 less shots. The loses could have been because Dirk was taking too many shots.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]That's thing. We weren't ever talking about solely the finals...he just shifted the goal posts because he was losing the debate.

It's been about so many other things. You'd never use just 1 series...and even worse...just wins...to determine anything.

It's just facts he's arguing with. The Mavs defense was not great. It was very good overall...and was great at times. Terry was good, but a subpar 2nd option. Those things are really not debatable...[/QUOTE]

Yea i think hes getting a little sidetracked here, its gone way off topic, tbh the thread topic suggests we should be looking at Dirks body of work as a whole rather than just 1 finals series,

Im going to finish with this, Durant is a great player, i like him alot, but he hasn't done anything that so far that will put him over prime Dirk.

Dirk achieved the unthinkable with his team, he won the title in the face of all odds going into the playoffs as the underdogs, went up against the most talented team in the league and got it done in the finals. Dirk has maintained a level of production over the length if his career that most players could not even dream of doing and in doing so has cemented his spot as one of the greatest PFs of all time and most likely the best shooting big man of all time.

Until Durant does any of this, i think this debate is over.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]
Please don't fall for his bullshit. Of course the Mavs win when Terry plays well. That's what happens when you give Dirk a legit 2nd option. [/quote]
But they win when Dirk doesn't play well. And they lose when Terry doesn't play well.

[QUOTE=Pointguard]But [B]they win when Dirk doesn't play well[/B]. And they lose when Terry doesn't play well.[/QUOTE]

What proof do you have of that?

[QUOTE=Pointguard]But they win when Dirk doesn't play well. And they lose when Terry doesn't play well.[/QUOTE]
Wtf are you talking about.:wtf: first you say Terry is better then Gasol and know Terry is more important then Dirk.

[QUOTE=Pointguard]But they win when Dirk doesn't play well. And they lose when Terry doesn't play well.[/QUOTE]

This just isn't true. In Dirk's 10 highest scoring games in the 11 playoffs...the Mavs went 8-2. Like...what more do you really want? Because they won a few games with Dirk not playing great...he doesn't matter?

Your problem is that you fail to realize just how much to the table Dirk brings than you give him credit for. If you really think Dirk is just a higher ppg scorer than Terry and that is the only difference...you just don't know basketball.

[QUOTE=Pointguard]Nope I say it everytime I post it. Terry was the more consistent and efficient scorer when they win in the finals. He could score as much as Dirk with 20 less shots. The loses could have been because Dirk was taking too many shots.[/QUOTE]

The losses? Yea...it was Dirk's fault they lost game 3...when Dirk went for 34/11

Game 1? Terry shot 3 of 10 for 12 points...Dirk had 27/8...LOL

In both of those losses Dirk way outplayed Terry...not even close.

If Terry plays well...we win both of those games and the series is probably a sweep or 5 games.

But this is just sidetracked now. Dirk was better than Terry in the finals...but Terry did play great. That has never been disputed...Terry overall in the finals was amazing and deserves a ton of credit.

But that is just a red herring to our previous discussions...

[QUOTE=Black and White]What proof do you have of that?[/QUOTE]
All of the stats I used were from the last three wins and some from all four wins. Terry played bad in the loses. First game kind of freaked him when they put Lebron on him.


Terry shot 25 for 43 a 58% clip for 22 ppg
Dirk shot. 24 for 64 a 37.5% clip for 25.6 ppg

That's only a 3.6 differential with a whopping 20% point difference in percentage!

In the four finals wins:
30/54 555% for Terry
34/86 395% for Dirk

Dirk took 32 more shots to get 4 more baskets.

[QUOTE=Pointguard]All of the stats I used were from the last three wins and some from all four wins. Terry played bad in the loses. First game kind of freaked him when they put Lebron on him.


Terry shot 25 for 43 a 58% clip for 22 ppg
Dirk shot. 24 for 64 a 37.5% clip for 25.6 ppg

That's only a 3.6 differential with a whopping 20% point difference in percentage!

In the four finals wins:
30/54 555% for Terry
34/86 395% for Dirk

Dirk took 32 more shots to get 4 more baskets.[/QUOTE]
What about when Terry played like Garbage.

[QUOTE=Pointguard]All of the stats I used were from the last three wins and some from all four wins. Terry played bad in the loses. First game kind of freaked him when they put Lebron on him.


Terry shot 25 for 43 a 58% clip for 22 ppg
Dirk shot. 24 for 64 a 37.5% clip for 25.6 ppg

That's only a 3.6 differential with a whopping 20% point difference in percentage!

In the four finals wins:
30/54 555% for Terry
34/86 395% for Dirk

Dirk took 32 more shots to get 4 more baskets.[/QUOTE]


Stop it...please stop it.

I'm out...this thread has now deteriorated into shit because of you PG...

Making this about a handful of cherrypicked games...claiming Terry is better than Gasol...and then turning around and saying all around play is what matters. You are a ****ing joke. Go back to thinking the nonsense you do...

[QUOTE=Pointguard]All of the stats I used were from the last three wins and some from all four wins. Terry played bad in the loses. First game kind of freaked him when they put Lebron on him.


Terry shot 25 for 43 a 58% clip for 22 ppg
Dirk shot. 24 for 64 a 37.5% clip for 25.6 ppg

That's only a 3.6 differential with a whopping 20% point difference in percentage!

In the four finals wins:
30/54 555% for Terry
34/86 395% for Dirk

Dirk took 32 more shots to get 4 more baskets.[/QUOTE]

But that doesn't mean that Dirk played bad in the wins does it? He still played extremely well, so maybe you should rephrase what you said about they win when he plays bad.

[QUOTE=Black and White]But that doesn't mean that Dirk played bad in the wins does it? He still played extremely well, so maybe you should rephrase what you said about they win when he plays bad.[/QUOTE]
I am really confused here. So he is saying we should ignore Firms good games because they Loss, but doesn't noticed Terry played like hot garbage those games.

[QUOTE=juju151111]I am really confused here. So he is saying we should ignore Firms good games because they Loss, but doesn't noticed Terry played like hot garbage those games.[/QUOTE]

Yea as DMAVS41 said he is only showing the games where Terry played well to attempt to prop up his arguement and ignore that Dirk played well the whole series when Terry was on and off

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]This just isn't true. In Dirk's 10 highest scoring games in the 11 playoffs...the Mavs went 8-2. Like...what more do you really want? Because they won a few games with Dirk not playing great...he doesn't matter?

Your problem is that you fail to realize just how much to the table Dirk brings than you give him credit for. If you really think Dirk is just a higher ppg scorer than Terry and that is the only difference...you just don't know basketball.[/QUOTE]
I was talking about the finals.

Dirk is great. No question there. One of the best.

But I don't think his offense meant more than their defense though. Magic was the only guy I might say that about in the playoffs . I think in the regular season Dirk pulls it off several times.

And I believe Dirk's experience makes him better than Durant in a tight playoff series. He's great no doubt.

[QUOTE=Pointguard]I was talking about the finals.

Dirk is great. No question there. One of the best.

But I don't think his offense meant more than their defense though. Magic was the only guy I might say that about in the playoffs . I think in the regular season Dirk pulls it off several times.

And I believe Dirk's experience makes him better than Durant in a tight playoff series. He's great no doubt.[/QUOTE]

Like I have said repeatedly...the defense was very important...especially what it allowed us to get on offense after stops...etc.

But while the defense was very good and very important...it was about average at best for a championship winning team. That is what I am grading it on. Just like Terry...he was so good...made so many key shots and big plays...but he's still a subpar 2nd option for a title winning team.

That has been my point from the beginning with you. I'm not denying how important terry and the defense were...i'm just saying they weren't as good as you claim. Literally every title team of this era has a better 2nd guy than Terry other than the 03 Spurs. And has a better defense outside of the 10 Lakers.

[QUOTE=Black and White]But that doesn't mean that Dirk played bad in the wins does it? He still played extremely well, so maybe you should rephrase what you said about they win when he plays bad.[/QUOTE]
My point was that Terry was much more efficient and consistent and that he shouldn't be played down. Timely scoring is a value on every team that wins championships. SA definitely wins it all with that quality.

[QUOTE=Pointguard]My point was that Terry was much more efficient and consistent and that he shouldn't be played down. Timely scoring is a value on every team that wins championships. SA definitely wins it all with that quality.[/QUOTE]

But who has said Terry wasn't great in the finals? I just haven't heard anyone claim that Terry wasn't absolutely key in winning the series against the Heat.

Hell, I've even heard people (wrongfully so) claim he was the fmvp. You act like people are claiming he sucked or something.

If terry played like he did in the finals more consistenlty...the Mavs would probably have 3 titles since 06.

[QUOTE=Black and White]Yea as DMAVS41 said he is only showing the games where Terry played well to attempt to prop up his arguement and ignore that Dirk played well the whole series when Terry was on and off[/QUOTE]
Dirk didn't play well the whole series. In two of the wins he played bad one whole game and most of the other. He had a great playoff run, but I am very specific in what I say.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Like I have said repeatedly...the defense was very important...especially what it allowed us to get on offense after stops...etc.

But while the defense was very good and very important...it was about average at best for a championship winning team. That is what I am grading it on. Just like Terry...he was so good...made so many key shots and big plays...but he's still a subpar 2nd option for a title winning team.

That has been my point from the beginning with you. I'm not denying how important terry and the defense were...i'm just saying they weren't as good as you claim. Literally every title team of this era has a better 2nd guy than Terry other than the 03 Spurs. And has a better defense outside of the 10 Lakers.[/QUOTE]

Richard Hamilton wasn't an adequate two guy to me either. But Rasheed or Tayshaun was a great 5 guy. Tyson or Marion great 5 guys.

[QUOTE=Pointguard]Richard Hamilton wasn't an adequate two guy to me either. But Rasheed or Tayshaun was a great 5 guy. Tyson or Marion great 5 guys.[/QUOTE]

Yea...he wasn't great or anything...but that team was not built around a star so it's hard to judge.

But I'd still take 04 Hamilton over Terry here. He did average 22/5/4 on good efficiency...especially in one of the toughest defensive years ever.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Yea...he wasn't great or anything...but that team was not built around a star so it's hard to judge.

But I'd still take 04 Hamilton over Terry here. He did average 22/5/4 on good efficiency...especially in one of the toughest defensive years ever.[/QUOTE]


Haven't seen a Mavs game this year. Is Dirk still the first option? How many more years do you see him playing and as a first option?

[QUOTE=Pointguard]Haven't seen a Mavs game this year. Is Dirk still the first option? How many more years do you see him playing and as a first option?[/QUOTE]

He and Ellis are about even offensively so far.

Hopefully 0...he can't be a championship first option anymore in my opinion. Well, he could be, but that team would have to absurdly stacked.

Great question

Prime Dirk,but this is very close

prime dirk for me is the 2011 playoff Dirk...:bowdown: I love watching youtube repeats of that year's playoff run, just so ficking awesome...

clutch as you like and was incredibly dominant.....hit the shots at the right times, step up when it's needed, pass when he needs to and doesn't freeze his team mate out by taking all the shots.....

handled the pressure like nobody's business......

current durant has yet to prove he can do that, even with his stats...

I am a big KD fan....maybe his career will unfold like Dirks....get back to the finals a few years later, he has the game....

Not considering playoffs, this is unquestionably Durant

Current Durant
29.6 ppg 8.2 rpg 4.9 apg 3.0 TOV 62.7 TS% 29.9 PER .318 WSp48 123 ORTG 99 DRTG 20.4 Win Shares

Peak Dirk
26.6 ppg 9.0 rpg 2.8 apg 1.9 TOV 58.9 TS% 28.1 PER .275 WSp48 123 ORTG 103 DRTG 17.7 Win Shares

Durant's a better scorer, rebounder relative to position, passer, defender.

[QUOTE=Joyner82reload]Not considering playoffs, this is unquestionably Durant

Current Durant
29.6 ppg 8.2 rpg 4.9 apg 3.0 TOV 62.7 TS% 29.9 PER .318 WSp48 123 ORTG 99 DRTG 20.4 Win Shares

Peak Dirk
26.6 ppg 9.0 rpg 2.8 apg 1.9 TOV 58.9 TS% 28.1 PER .275 WSp48 123 ORTG 103 DRTG 17.7 Win Shares

Durant's a better scorer, rebounder relative to position, passer, defender.[/QUOTE]

I think your post shows that Durant is statistically better...that is all.

Dirk's impact goes beyond stats in a way I don't think Durant's does to date.

It will be interesting to see what Durant does with better help than Dirk ever had in his career. We already saw 12 Durant come up short with that roster...hopefully he has a healthy team this year so we see it.

Prime Dirk slightly.

Dirk is one of those guy's whose impact you just can't quantify. I'd love to have seen him dominate with the team that drafted him. He'd get a lot more respect around here.

Dirk, not even close. Durant can't win,period. Nothing but a taller Iverson.

Prime Dirk > Current Durant
Prime Dirk ? Prime Durant

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]I think your post shows that Durant is statistically better...that is all.

Dirk's impact goes beyond stats in a way I don't think Durant's does to date.

It will be interesting to see what Durant does with better help than Dirk ever had in his career. We already saw 12 Durant come up short with that roster...hopefully he has a healthy team this year so we see it.[/QUOTE]


I would pick prime dirk..

but you know whats funny Dmavs41. When there is a player who is a better scorer than dirk you highlight other things he can do as oppose to kg who is not a ben wallace on scoring you failed to his greatness outside of scoring that dirk clearly has over KG. but here now you go stating that as an excuse again that dirk had the one of the worst second option in scoring but their defense even a 50 year old jason kidd played outstanding defense that helped them get the title you mention that but still you weigh things as OFFESE>> DEFENSE because you always say that dirk didnt have a Great 2nd option . Why is it that it sounds like its a workload for dirk if he was such a good scorer. AI didnt have a team mate that scored more than 15 ppg in his playoff run just so you know .

[QUOTE=veilside23]I would pick prime dirk..

but you know whats funny Dmavs41. When there is a player who is a better scorer than dirk you highlight other things he can do as oppose to kg who is not a ben wallace on scoring you failed to his greatness outside of scoring that dirk clearly has over KG. but here now you go stating that as an excuse again that dirk had the one of the worst second option in scoring but their defense even a 50 year old jason kidd played outstanding defense that helped them get the title you mention that but still you weigh things as OFFESE>> DEFENSE because you always say that dirk didnt have a Great 2nd option . Why is it that it sounds like its a workload for dirk if he was such a good scorer. AI didnt have a team mate that scored more than 15 ppg in his playoff run just so you know .[/QUOTE]

I can't make sense of this post.