Better at basketball, Jokić or Kobe?

Jokic is literally 10 times better at basketball than lefraud, dead serious. Talk about a real all round player/stats on offense, like harden, luka and giannis in his own way. What makes what lebum does in his mandatory system with all the losing and lack of fundamentals so special? Is it his health and longevity? He has alot of weaknesses, losses and cowardly created the superteam era and still failed. It's strange, is it the breakaway dunks here and there? Is it espn?

Have some self respect bron fanbois, asking these delusional questions when Jokic is 10 times better at bball than lebum. Why Kobe?

[QUOTE=Baller234;15031706]I'm convinced you aren't reading my posts. I'm convinced you skim through, get emotionally triggered by a single sentence and then go off on a tangent. If you did you wouldn't have responded in this retarded manner.

The schemes are more "complex" because the shooting allows for it. If you took a time machine to a previous era and applied the same "scheme", it doesn't work. You don't have the shooters. If it's pre-2000's you don't even have the lanes. That means wayyy less drive and kick. If it's pre-MERGER you don't even have a 3pt line. :oldlol:

What's your brilliant plan then?? Tell me how any of these teams win without a 3pt line. :oldlol:[/QUOTE]
So you admit modern players are much more skilled and then go on to insist the product is somehow worse. You may struggle with object permanence.

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;15031697]The notion his defense makes up for some of these performances is absolutely laughable, you'd have to have Bill Russell impact to try to salvage these performances and Kobe, esp after the 3peat, is not even in the stratosphere of that.

I didn't remove his 3peat years, I acknowledged that was the one instance he performed well, but that was a clear aberration as the rest of his career was filled with very poor performances.

I didn't add any criteria, I included how many points they lost by in each elimination game, and in most instances they got curb stomped. I added they were the favorites in 2011 to emphasize the fact they got swept and destroyed like that in the final game.

And you can whataboutism LeBron, an odd choice considering he's the GOAT elimination game performer, but nothing in LeBron's career changes anything about what factually occurred in Kobe's career regarding elimination games.[/QUOTE]

And I'd counter argue saying the notion we just throwaway defense and only hone in on numbers...is even more comical. I mean, why watch or play the game? We can just punch-in numbers on a calculator lol. Nobody argued Kobe's defense "made up" for his shooting. What I'm challenging is your ridiculous claim that these games were "inarguably poor" while you simply regurgitate stats.

Kobe began his prime sometime during the middle of that 3-peat. You acknowledge that, ok fine, but still only posted his numbers from 2003 lol. You also removed Kobe's first 2 years off the bench, and then included non prime years like 1999 and 2000. Again no problem, but I was strictly talking about Kobe's prime.

You absolutely added additional criteria :lol Kobe had alright numbers in some of those, but you still made a point to talk about his team losing and getting crushed as favorites. You concluded that only like 2 games were 'good". Its disingenuous. Just say Kobe has a different standard than your favorite player, and stop beating around the bush.

I thought we were strictly debating individual performance. Now this dude is talking about LA "losing by 13" lol

[QUOTE=RRR3;15031709]So you admit modern players are much more skilled and then go on to insist the product is somehow worse. You may struggle with object permanence.[/QUOTE]

They're more skilled at shooting. Not much else. Remove the 3pt line and 80% of the players in the league become useless.

Teams actually had specialists back then. Scoring specialists, shooting specialists, defensive specialists, rebounding specialists, playmaking specialists... it was about combining talents and making a greater whole. If one thing fails they can lean on something else. Every team had specialists in the starting lineup.

The players now can shoot better, they're more athletic, they can spread the floor... but that's basically it. If that three isn't falling, they're useless. It's why so many games these days end in a blowout.

I couldn't help but notice you dodged my question though. Tell me how any of the teams today compete against older teams if there's no 3pt line. Tell me what happens if the Curry/Klay Warriors that went 73-9 play the Kobe/Gasol Lakers. :oldlol:

[QUOTE=Baller234;15031712]They're more skilled at shooting. Not much else. Remove the 3pt line and 80% of the players in the league become useless.

Teams actually had specialists back then. Scoring specialists, shooting specialists, defensive specialists, rebounding specialists, playmaking specialists... it was about combining talents and making a greater whole. If one thing fails they can lean on something else. Every team had specialists in the starting lineup.

The players now can shoot better, they're more athletic, they can spread the floor... but that's basically it. If that three isn't falling, they're useless. It's why so many games these days end in a blowout.

I couldn't help but notice you dodged my question though. Tell me how any of the teams today compete against older teams if there's no 3pt line. Tell me what happens if the Curry/Klay Warriors that went 73-9 play the Kobe/Gasol Lakers. :oldlol:[/QUOTE]
Players are much better at both offense and defense today did you even watch the video? There’s far more responsibilities for the average player today. Watch the video then get back to me.

[QUOTE=RRR3;15031713]Players are much better at both offense and defense today did you even watch the video? There’s far more responsibilities for the average player today. Watch the video then get back to me.[/QUOTE]

Answer the question.

The 09 Lakers vs the 16 Warriors, no 3pt line.

Who wins.

[QUOTE=Baller234;15031715]Answer the question.

The 09 Lakers vs the 16 Warriors, no 3pt line.

Who wins.[/QUOTE]
Still the Warriors Kobe would be helpless against Draymond and Iguodala and too selfish to pass it to the bigs down low. Now watch the video.


If you seriously think curry needs the 3pt line to be elite btw your bball IQ is awful.

[QUOTE=RRR3;15031716][B][SIZE=4]Still the Warriors [/SIZE][/B]Kobe would be helpless against Draymond and Iguodala. Now watch the video.[/QUOTE]

For everyone following this thread and were on the fence, I hope this prime example of ignorance and stupidity helps sway you in some kind of direction.

As if you weren't already disqualified from the discussion, this only solidifies it for all time. I will weigh in if others want to keep debating but I'm definitely done going back and forth with you on this topic. :oldlol:

[QUOTE=Baller234;15031718]For everyone following this thread and were on the fence, I hope this prime example of ignorance and stupidity helps sway you in some kind of direction.

As if you weren't already disqualified from the discussion, this only solidifies it for all time. I will weigh in if others want to keep debating but I'm definitely done going back and forth with you on this topic. :oldlol:[/QUOTE]
Throwing a tantrum and quitting just like your hero Kobe did in the 2006 playoffs eh? Your tears won’t make Kobe top 20 all time. Cheer up tho he’s definitely top 50

[QUOTE=RRR3;15031719]Throwing a tantrum and quitting just like your hero Kobe did in the 2006 playoffs eh?[/QUOTE]

Go ahead, make another thread. Conduct another poll like you did this one.

09 Lakers vs 16 Warriors, no 3pt line.

See what kind of results you get. :oldlol:

[QUOTE=Baller234;15031720]Go ahead, make another thread. Conduct another poll like you did this one.

09 Lakers vs 16 Warriors, no 3pt line.

See what kind of results you get. :oldlol:[/QUOTE]
Probably better results than Kobe got in the clutch.

It’s very funny you still don’t get I’m winding you up bawler. But it’s just too easy. You see red and start typing furious paragraphs at the slightest provocation :oldlol:

The story of 3tard:

[IMG]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BlP6StFCQAAmgU7?format=jpg&name=small[/IMG]

[QUOTE=Baller234;15031726]The story of 3tard:

[IMG]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BlP6StFCQAAmgU7?format=jpg&name=small[/IMG][/QUOTE]
I mean do you seriously think I think Kobe wasn’t a great player?

3tard always loses.

Hey bro has life been a little less harsh on you recently? Because i remember you being in a very bad spot some time ago.

[QUOTE=RRR3;15031728]I mean do you seriously think I think Kobe wasn’t a great player?[/QUOTE]

Who's better at basketball, Jokic or lebron.

[QUOTE=RRR3;15031728]I mean do you seriously think I think Kobe wasn’t a great player?[/QUOTE]

I think you're emotional when it comes to Lebron. I think you grew up watching him and feel attachment to him. Kobe is one of the few players who often gets tossed around in the discussion with him so you feel obligated to tarnish his name in Lebron's honor and create some distance between them.

Meanwhile it's the opposite for me. I rooted against Kobe his entire career. Was never much of a fan.

[QUOTE=LAL;15031730]Who's better at basketball, Jokic or lebron.[/QUOTE]
When? Current LeBron or prime LeBron? Younger LeBron was a little better because of the defensive gap but Jokic is honestly probably better at offense. Might be the best ever on offense tbh. And obviously Jokic is much better than LeBron currently.

The funny thing is I don’t even like Jokic I just can see how great he is.

[QUOTE=Baller234;15031731]I think you're emotional when it comes to Lebron. I think you grew up watching him and feel attachment to him. Kobe is one of the few players who often gets tossed around in the discussion with him so you feel obligated to tarnish his name in Lebron's honor and create some distance between them.

Meanwhile it's the opposite for me. I rooted against Kobe his entire career. Was never much of a fan.[/QUOTE]

Nice

[QUOTE=RRR3;15031732]When? Current LeBron or prime LeBron? Younger LeBron was a little better because of the defensive gap but Jokic is honestly probably better at offense. Might be the best ever on offense tbh. And obviously Jokic is much better than LeBron currently.

The funny thing is I don’t even like Jokic I just can see how great he is.[/QUOTE]

Prime lebron was pure athleticism and even worse at basketball than now? Do you even know who you stan?

10 times better at basketball than mr FLAWS

shame on you bron fanboi, asking these dumb questions.

[QUOTE=Baller234;15031731]I think you're emotional when it comes to Lebron. I think you grew up watching him and feel attachment to him. Kobe is one of the few players who often gets tossed around in the discussion with him so you feel obligated to tarnish his name in Lebron's honor and create some distance between them.

Meanwhile it's the opposite for me. I rooted against Kobe his entire career. Was never much of a fan.[/QUOTE]
Nah I rank MJ ahead of LeBron. And I can see a case for Kareem. Peak wise you could argue Shaq and Wilt were better than LeBron. I think guys like Curry and Jokic are pretty damn close to LeBron, Curry actually made me question if LeBron was the best player I’d ever seen for a brief time in 2016. I think Wembanyama has the potential to be better than LeBron too. Kobe just was really far behind in terms of impact compared to the guys we’re talking about. I’d say Kobe is in the top 12 or so (for now, Jokic and Giannis may surpass him with enough longevity) but you are trying to put him in the top 2 which is crazy.

[QUOTE=LAL;15031735]Prime lebron was pure athleticism and even worse at basketball than now? Do you even know who you stan?

10 times better at basketball than mr FLAWS

shame on you bron fanboi, asking these dumb questions.[/QUOTE]
You think LeBron was worse in his prime than he is at 40 and you’re calling me dumb? :yaohappy:

[QUOTE=RRR3;15031738]You think LeBron was worse in his prime than he is at 40 and you’re calling me dumb? :yaohappy:[/QUOTE]

Better-at-basketball

Still stiff as ****, lost his athleticism but improved SOME things BBALL wise compared to his younger version where it couldn't get worse lol.

[QUOTE=LAL;15031740]Better-at-basketball

Still stiff as ****, lost his athleticism but improved SOME things BBALL wise compared to his younger version where it couldn't get worse lol.[/QUOTE]
Yeah I get that you’re really stupid but athleticism is a big part of basketball. Or else we’d say Chris Paul was the best ever.

[QUOTE=RRR3;15031737]Nah I rank MJ ahead of LeBron. And I can see a case for Kareem. Peak wise you could argue Shaq and Wilt were better than LeBron. I think guys like Curry and Jokic are pretty damn close to LeBron, Curry actually made me question if LeBron was the best player I’d ever seen for a brief time in 2016. I think Wembanyama has the potential to be better than LeBron too. Kobe just was really far behind in terms of impact compared to the guys we’re talking about. I’d say Kobe is in the top 12 or so (for now, Jokic and Giannis may surpass him with enough longevity) but you are trying to put him in the top 2 which is crazy.[/QUOTE]

Holy shit just when I thought you couldn't get any more retarded.

I didn't predict you would be so eager to put others ahead of Lebron. Respect for that I suppose. Didn't see that coming.

Would have never thought I had more respect for your hero than you did, and this is coming from someone who genuinely doesn't like Bron as a person. :oldlol:

[QUOTE=RRR3;15031741]Yeah I get that you’re really stupid but athleticism is a big part of basketball. Or else we’d say Chris Paul was the best ever.[/QUOTE]

We're judging by bball abilities not physical abilities. Good job 3tard i bet you're still blown away like a 12 year old by his one hand break away dunks

[QUOTE=Baller234;15031742]Holy shit just when I thought you couldn't get any more retarded.

I didn't predict you would be so eager to put others ahead of Lebron. Respect for that I suppose. Didn't see that coming.

Would have never thought I had more respect for your hero than you did, and this is coming from someone who genuinely doesn't like Bron as a person. :oldlol:[/QUOTE]
What did I say that was crazy? Having MJ over LeBron and thinking Shaq and Wilt had arguably goat peaks is pretty common.

[QUOTE=LAL;15031744]We're judging by bball abilities not physical abilities. Good job 3tard i bet you're still blown away like a 12 year old by his one hand break away dunks[/QUOTE]
Physical abilities are part of basketball :hammerhead:

Why do you think Giannis is so good?

[IMG]https://cdn.nba.com/manage/2020/01/lebron-iso-flex-scaled.jpg[/IMG]

Losing and flexing after transition dunks.

Better AT basketball. I don't know why you bring up Giannis, there's many many people better AT basketball, there your answer.

And what makes Giannis great is a different discussion.

[QUOTE=LAL;15031749]Better AT basketball. I don't know why you bring up Giannis, there's many many people better AT basketball, there your answer.

And what makes Giannis great is a different discussion.[/QUOTE]
No there are not many many people better than Giannis at basketball lol. Maybe ~20 in nba history. That’s not “many many”. You thinking athleticism has nothing to do with basketball is comical.

[QUOTE=LAL;15031749]Better AT basketball. I don't know why you bring up Giannis, there's many many people better AT basketball, there your answer.

And what makes Giannis great is a different discussion.[/QUOTE]What is the point of this exercise? If you break it down to fundamental skills- dribbling, shooting, passing- Jose Calderon is better than peak Shaq.

[QUOTE=j3lademaster;15031766]What is the point of this exercise? If you break it down to fundamental skills- dribbling, shooting, passing- Jose Calderon is better than peak Shaq.[/QUOTE]

He is.

And that was the question bro.

[QUOTE=LAL;15031768]He is.

And that was the question bro.[/QUOTE]
Yeah there’s more to basketball than just those skills though. Try telling anyone Jose Calderon was better at basketball than Shaq :lol

[QUOTE=RRR3;15031769]Yeah there’s more to basketball than just those skills though. Try telling anyone Jose Calderon was better at basketball than Shaq :lol[/QUOTE]

Better at basketball or better player?

It's your dumbass title bro

[QUOTE=LAL;15031771]Better at basketball or better player?

It's your dumbass title bro[/QUOTE]
THEY ARE THE SAME THING.


I’m in awe of how dumb you are.

"better at basketball" is just the culmination of every tool at your disposal, be it size, athleticism, skill, iq, etc that helps you affect winning basketball games.

[QUOTE=j3lademaster;15031775]"better at basketball" is just the culmination of every tool at your disposal, be it size, athleticism, skill, iq, etc that helps you affect winning basketball games.[/QUOTE]
Nah man Jose Calderon was better at basketball than Shaq you don’t get it.

[QUOTE=LAL;15031768]He is.

And that was the question bro.[/QUOTE]

So someone who's better at fundamental things like shooting, passing, rebounding, etc is the better player? Sure you wanna go that route? You're mking the case for Jokič there.

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15031224]You are overstating how bad Jokic is as a defender. I don't think he's anywhere near the other all-time great centers on that end, he doesn't have the athletic ability to contest shots at the rim due to his poor vertical, but he's a smart defender with very good hands, he's always near the top of the league in overall deflections and always makes the right rotations.

I would say he is an average to above average defender, which is around what Bird was during his peak. You could argue Bird was the better defender, but it certainly is not going to make up the advantage Jokic has on offense.[/QUOTE]

Who classified Bird as being an average defender at his peak when that was when he was known for his help defense? I didn't watch him then (I was just born), and you're younger than me by like 7 years, so I'm curious to know how you arrived at that conclusion.

Bird got DPOY votes in '84 and finished All-Defensive 2nd Team. '84 was a peak year. You could argue he was in his peak in '83 also (2nd in MVP voting), and he was All-Defensive 2nd Team. Now, he was mostly a PF in those years, but defense is defense.

If you're gonna say Bird was average and Jokic is average, then you're saying they're the same.