There is one reason why Michael Jordan is the greatest of all-time

[QUOTE=jlauber]My only AGENDA is to present the FACTS in these GOAT discussions. And the FACTS were, Jordan played with the most talented rosters in the 90's, and his TEAM won six titles. Was Jordan the primary reason? Of course he was. But, for those that have this perception that MJ HIMSELF won those rings, what about Pippen, who won just as many. On top of that, using this analogy that ONE player won the rings, Pippen got the Bulls just as far in '94, withOUT MJ, as he did WITH MJ in '95. And,Pippen played on a Portland team that took the 99-00 Lakers to the final minutes of a game seven, as well.

And, once again, MJ was NO miracle worker. He played on FIVE losers in his career. He took a 27 win team to 38 wins in his first year. Bird, Kareem, D. Robinson, and Wilt all had far more IMPACT in their first season.

And uneducated fans, who never even saw Wilt and Russell play, believe the MYTH that Wilt was a "loser" (although he played on as many title teams as Olajuwon did.) The real FACTS were that Wilt carried inferior rosters for much of his career, to within an eyelash of beating the greatest dynasty in professional sports history. He played in FOUR game sevens, and those teams lost those games by a combined NINE points. I have documented the variety of reasons, as well...and they are all FACTUAL. He played on inferior rosters; and in several post-season games in which an opposing player hit a miracle shot to beat his team (1962 and TWO games in 1969); or a horribly officiated game that cost a HUGE under-dog team a title (game five of the 70 Finals); or where an opponent made a great play at the end of the game (65 ECF's game seven.)

Jordan supporters would argue that MJ would NEVER have lost a close game seven. MY take is that Jordan would never have gotten those teams that Wilt played on, nearly as far. For those that did not see him play, Elgin Baylor was a similar player to MJ. He and Jerry West are two of the greatest players ever (West had POST-SEASON numbers similar to MJ's BTW)...and yet, they went 0-7 against Russell's Celtics. Wilt not only played in four series in which he could easily have won...he DID lead a team to a convincing victory over the Celtics.

I have given the '86 Bulls as an example before, but here we go again...MJ played brilliantly, but he could not lead Chicago to even ONE win against the Celtics, and their FIVE HOFers. Meanwhile, Wilt took the same basic last-place roster that he joined in '60, to a game seven, two-point loss against the 62 Celtics..and their SIX HOFers.

You can find flaws in most all of the great players, as well. Kareem played on several 60+ win teams that did not win a championship. In fact, he was considered a huge disappointment until Magic arrived in 79-80. Shaq, as dominant as he was in so many post-seasons, played on several teams that got swept in the post-season.

Really, if you are using rings as a gauge, only Russell stands alone. His TEAMs won 11 titles in 13 seasons, and 27 playoff series in 29 tries. He also won with a 48 win team.

If you are using INDIVIDUAL domination...it is simply NO CONTEST...Wilt was the statistically most dominant player in ANY professional team sport.[/QUOTE]
ohh yea those Amazing Bulls team of the 1991 where they wasn't the favorites. In 1992 they called Blazers the more "talented team"

goat

[QUOTE=t-rex]If the Bulls had beaten the Knicks that year, it would have been a shocking upset if the Pacers had knocked them off in the ECF. If the Bulls had beaten the Knicks, they would have been heavy favorites to return to the finals.



Question?



If I take Lebron off the Cavs, do they win 55 games and advance to the second round of the playoffs? Are they legit title contenders?

If not, then you must conclude Lebron's supporting cast is not as good as Jordan's.

Neither is Kobe's.[/QUOTE]

Whether it would have been an upset if the Pacers beat the bulls in the conference finals or not, it is simply fallacy to state that the bulls were "one bad call" away from "making it to the finals".

Injuries happen, upsets happen, the Pacers had already upset the Magic in the first round, and the 57 win Hawks in the 2nd round! :)

Additionally, the "bad call" happened in game 5, not game 7, meaning the Bulls would not have necessarily even closed out the series if they had gotten that call! hah.

So no, a bad call did not prevent the 93-94 bulls from making the finals. Quit posting misinformation.

"If I take Lebron off the Cavs, do they win 55 games and advance to the second round of the playoffs? Are they legit title contenders?"

Irrelevant. The cavs are not 3 time defending Champions, who then added key role players in Kerr (the GOAT 3PT shooter), or Kukoc (a very versatile big man). So you are comparing apples and oranges.

Jordan and Pippen had both played in the 92 olympics after winning 67 games the year before. The 92-93 bulls coasted through the regular season, not as concerned with winning as many games as they could have otherwise done, much like the Lakers in the early 2000s.

The 93-94 bulls added both Kerr and Kukoc to a team coming off of 3 championships, and won 55 games. Put Jordan on that squad and you are looking at a good shot at 70+ wins.

[QUOTE=jlauber]So,, Jordan was one of the three best offensive players ever, and one of the ten best defensive players ever...and that makes him at least #2. Who is #1?

How about this...

Defensive WIN-SHARES...

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/dws_season.html[/url]

Yes, Russell and his 11 rings is easily the best ever...BUT, who is #2 based on that list? Why, it is CLEARLY a guy by the name of Chamberlain.

Or a career list, in which Russell, Kareem (longevity), Olajuwon...and then Chamberlain. Where does MJ appear? #21.

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/dws_career.html[/url]

How about Offensive Win Shares in a Career? Kareem (longevity), then Wilt.MK is 4th behind Oscar.

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ows_career.html[/url]

Single-Season Offensive Win-Shares?

Kareem, then Wilt.

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ows_season.html[/url]

How about Single-Season Win Shares? Kareem, then Wilt, several times over...

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_season.html[/url]

Career? Kareem (longevity), then Wilt, K. Malone, and finally Jordan at #5.

Here are some more ratings. and the explanation:

[url]http://www.databasebasketball.com/about/aboutstats.htm[/url]

[COLOR="DarkRed"]"*** Efficiency is a new stat the NBA developed in 2002. It is calculated using the following formula: (pts*100)/((fta*.44) + fga + to - oreb)
Since Efficiency is calculated on a per game basis, it is good at seeing how well a particular player has performed, regardless of the number of games that the player has played during that season. For an estimate of a players value to his team for the entire season, Approximate Values can be used.

Approximate Value (AV)

Approximate Value (AV) was developed by Dean Oliver. You can read more about this formula and more at this website: [url]http://www.powerbasketball.com/theywin2.html[/url]

Here is a quick synopsis of AV values


Credits= PTS+REB+AST+STL+BLK-FG MISSED-FT MISSED-TO

AV= Credits^(3/4)/21

The Value Approximation Method was a major task to come up with, taking me about two months to finally arrive at satisfactory results. The plan for the method was to end up with a scale of integers between 0 and about 20 rating players, with 10 representing an 'average' player. It was to be based upon several standards a player was to meet in order to gain points of approximate value. The whole thing was modeled on Bill James' Value Approximation method for baseball. As James did, I assigned verbal descriptions to ranges of scores in order to see if the method produced results that matched general descriptions of players. Those descriptions are as follows:



A score of about twenty indicates an exceptional MVP season.
A score of seventeen or eighteen indicates a strong MVP candidate or an ordinary MVP season.
A score of sixteen indicates an MVP candidate.
A score of fifteen indicates a definite All-Star who is a marginal MVP candidate.
A score of fourteen indicates a probable All-Star.
A score of thirteen indicates a marginal All-Star.
A score of twelve indicates a very fine season; an All-Star candidate.
A score of eleven indicates an above average regular; an excellent player playing about 1800 minutes.
A score of ten indicates an average regular or a very good sixth man.
A score of nine indicates an average regular or a good sixth man.
A score of eight indicates a fair regular or an average sixth man.
A score of six or seven indicates an average bench player or a good player playing under 1500 minutes.
A score of four or five indicates a player who plays about 1000 minutes and who doesn't deserve many more.
Scores of three or less usually indicate players who are unimpressive in limited playing time.
Before the '73-74 season, steals (STL), blocks (BLK), and turnovers weren't kept as official stats. In the credits formula for player seasons before '73-74, those stats are just omitted as they tend to cancel each other out to some degree when included anyway. "[/COLOR]



How about EFF?

Whoa! Wilt in a LANDSLIDE! (He has the top-SEVEN seasons)

[url]http://www.databasebasketball.com/leaders/leadersseason.htm?stat=eff&lg=n[/url]

How about EFF in a Career? Chamberlain ROUTS the field, and MJ comes in at #8.

How about AV ratings? Single season...Chamberlain CRUSHES EVERYONE...SEVEN of the Top-8 seasons (Kareem at #7 on that list)

[url]http://www.databasebasketball.com/leaders/leadersseason.htm?stat=av&lg=n[/url]

AV Career? Kareem is #1 but it is based on longevity...and Wilt is #2. Jordan is #8.[/QUOTE]


EFF is irrelevant. It doesn't take Pace of Play into account.

[QUOTE=jlauber]How about the NBA Record Book...

Incidently this site is INCORRECT. It lists Wilt with 72 records. In ACTUALITY, it is somewhere around 130. BUT, for purposes of this discussion...it will do...
COLOR][/QUOTE]

And Jordan holds 70 NBA records, what's your point? Unlike Wilt, many of Jordan's records are in the playoffs:

Holds NBA Finals records for:

Finals MVP honors (6)
named MVP in each Finals appearance
scoring average, single-series (41.0 ppg)
set in the 1993 NBA Finals vs. the Phoenix Suns
consecutive games, 20 or more points (35, June 2, 1991-June 14, 1998)
only player to score 20 or more points in all games, career (min. 15 games)
Jordan scored at least 20 in all 35 of his Finals performances
consecutive games, 40 or more points (4, June 11-18, 1993)
points, one half (35)
set in 1st half vs. the Portland Trail Blazers, June 3, 1992
field goals made, one half (14)
did so twice; vs. Portland, June 3, 1992 and vs. Phoenix, June 16, 1993
shared with Isiah Thomas
consecutive field goals made (13)
set vs. the Los Angeles Lakers on June 5, 1991
free throws made, quarter (9)
shared with Frank Ramsey
three point field goals made, one half (6)
set vs. the Portland Trail Blazers, June 3, 1992
shared with Kenny Smith
scoring 30 or more points in all games of series
set in the 1993 NBA Finals vs. the Phoenix Suns
shared with Elgin Baylor, Rick Barry, Hakeem Olajuwon and Shaquille O'Neal
points, 6-game series (246)
set in the 1993 NBA Finals vs. the Phoenix Suns
field goals made, 6-game series (101)
set in the 1993 NBA Finals vs. the Phoenix Suns
steals, 5-game series (14)
set in the 1991 NBA Finals vs. the Los Angeles Lakers
highest assists average not by a point guard, single-series (11.4 apg)
set in the 1991 NBA Finals vs. the Los Angeles Lakers

Holds NBA Playoff Records for:

points per game average, career (33.45)
points, career (5,987)
points, single postseason (759, 1992)
also ranks 5th (680, 1998) and 6th (666, 1993)
50 point games (8)
40 point games (38)
30 point games (109)
20 point games (174)
consecutive games, 15 or more points (179)
scored 15 points or more in every career playoff game
consecutive games, 20 or more points (60)
June 2, 1989 - May 11, 1993
points in a game (63)
set vs. the Boston Celtics, April 20, 1986
averaged 43.7 ppg, 5.7 apg, and 6.3 rpg for the three games series against the Boston Celtics
points in a 3-game series (135)
set in the 1992 First Round vs. the Miami Heat
points in a 5-game series (226)
set in the 1988 First Round vs. the Cleveland Cavaliers
field goals attempted, career (4,497)
field goals made per game, career (12.2)
field goals made in a game (24)
set vs. Cleveland Cavaliers on May 1, 1988
shared with Wilt Chamberlain and John Havlicek
field goals attempted, half (25)
set vs. Cleveland Cavaliers on May 1, 1988
shared with Wilt Chamberlain and Elgin Baylor
field goals made in a 3-game series (53)
set in the 1992 First Round vs. the Miami Heat
field goals made in a 5-game series (86)
set in the 1988 First Round vs. the Cleveland Cavaliers
field goals made in a 6-game series (101)
set in 1993 NBA Finals vs. the Phoenix Suns
consecutive field goals made (13)
set vs. the Los Angeles Lakers on June 5, 1991
free throws made, career (1,463)
free throws made, quarter (13)
blocks by a guard, career (158)
free throws made per game, rookie (12.0)
free throws attempted per game, rookie (14.5)

Holds NBA All-Star Game records for:

points, career (262)
field goals made, career (110)
field goals made, game (17)
shared with Wilt Chamberlain and Kevin Garnett
field goals attempted, career (233)
field goals attempted, game (27)
shared with Rick Barry
steals, career (37)
blocked shots, half (4)

Holds NBA regular season records for:

All-Defensive First Team honors (9)
shared with Gary Payton
Player Efficiency Rating, career (27.91)
points per game average, career (30.12)
consecutive games scoring in double-digits (866)
seasons leading the league in points per game average (10)
consecutive seasons leading the league in points per game average (7, 1986-87 through 1992-93)
shared with Wilt Chamberlain
Appears on the All-time top 100 list of most points per game in a season a record 9 times.
seasons leading the league in total points (11)
Appears on the All-time top 100 list of most points in a season a record 11 times.
seasons leading the league in field goals made (10)
consecutive seasons leading the league in field goals made (7)
shared with Wilt Chamberlain
seasons leading the league in field goals attempted (9)
seasons leading the league in steals per game (3)
highest Game Score on record
64.6 at the Cleveland Cavaliers on March 28, 1990
free throws made, one half
20, against the Miami Heat on December 30, 1992
free throws attempted, one half
23, against the Miami Heat on December 30, 1992
free throws made, one quarter (shared)
14, against the Utah Jazz on November 15, 1989, and against the Miami Heat on December 30, 1992
free throws attempted, one quarter (shared)
16, against the Miami Heat on December 30, 1992
steals, one half (8)
shared with 11 players
oldest player to score 50 points in one game (51 points, 7 rebounds, aged 38 years, 315 days)
against the New Orleans Hornets, December 29, 2001
oldest player and only player at age 40 or older to score 40 points in one game (43 points, 10 rebounds)
against the New Jersey Nets, February 21, 2003
scored 40 or more points 3 times, in his final year
scored 30 or more points 9 times, in his final year
scored 20 or more points 42 times, in his final year
blocked shots by a guard, season (131, 1987-88)
blocked shots by a guard, career (893)

[QUOTE=alexandreben]KAJ had the combination of all those things too, tell me why you pick MJ over KAJ...[/QUOTE]


KAJ has 6 rings....but only 2 finals mvps.

[QUOTE=Soothsayer]KAJ has 6 rings....but only 2 finals mvps.[/QUOTE]
Wilt Chamberlain only has one FMVP, and Bill Russell has NONE.

[QUOTE=jlauber]My only AGENDA is to present the FACTS in these GOAT discussions. [B][U]And the FACTS were, Jordan played with the most talented rosters in the 90's,[/U][/B] and his TEAM won six titles. Was Jordan the primary reason? Of course he was. But, for those that have this perception that MJ HIMSELF won those rings, what about Pippen, who won just as many. On top of that, using this analogy that ONE player won the rings, Pippen got the Bulls just as far in '94, withOUT MJ, as he did WITH MJ in '95. And,Pippen played on a Portland team that took the 99-00 Lakers to the final minutes of a game seven, as well.

And, once again, MJ was NO miracle worker. He played on FIVE losers in his career. He took a 27 win team to 38 wins in his first year. Bird, Kareem, D. Robinson, and Wilt all had far more IMPACT in their first season.

And uneducated fans, who never even saw Wilt and Russell play, believe the MYTH that Wilt was a "loser" (although he played on as many title teams as Olajuwon did.) The real FACTS were that Wilt carried inferior rosters for much of his career, to within an eyelash of beating the greatest dynasty in professional sports history. He played in FOUR game sevens, and those teams lost those games by a combined NINE points. I have documented the variety of reasons, as well...and they are all FACTUAL. He played on inferior rosters; and in several post-season games in which an opposing player hit a miracle shot to beat his team (1962 and TWO games in 1969); or a horribly officiated game that cost a HUGE under-dog team a title (game five of the 70 Finals); or where an opponent made a great play at the end of the game (65 ECF's game seven.)

Jordan supporters would argue that MJ would NEVER have lost a close game seven. MY take is that Jordan would never have gotten those teams that Wilt played on, nearly as far. For those that did not see him play, Elgin Baylor was a similar player to MJ. He and Jerry West are two of the greatest players ever (West had POST-SEASON numbers similar to MJ's BTW)...and yet, they went 0-7 against Russell's Celtics. Wilt not only played in four series in which he could easily have won...he DID lead a team to a convincing victory over the Celtics.

I have given the '86 Bulls as an example before, but here we go again...MJ played brilliantly, but he could not lead Chicago to even ONE win against the Celtics, and their FIVE HOFers. Meanwhile, Wilt took the same basic last-place roster that he joined in '60, to a game seven, two-point loss against the 62 Celtics..and their SIX HOFers.

You can find flaws in most all of the great players, as well. Kareem played on several 60+ win teams that did not win a championship. In fact, he was considered a huge disappointment until Magic arrived in 79-80. Shaq, as dominant as he was in so many post-seasons, played on several teams that got swept in the post-season.

Really, if you are using rings as a gauge, only Russell stands alone. His TEAMs won 11 titles in 13 seasons, and 27 playoff series in 29 tries. He also won with a 48 win team.

If you are using INDIVIDUAL domination...it is simply NO CONTEST...Wilt was the statistically most dominant player in ANY professional team sport.[/QUOTE]


No, Jordan did not play with the most talented cast in the 90s...far from it. Most of Jordan's cast were good role players.

[QUOTE=jlauber]My only AGENDA is to present the FACTS in these GOAT discussions. And the FACTS were, Jordan played with the most talented rosters in the 90's, and his TEAM won six titles. Was Jordan the primary reason? Of course he was. But, for those that have this perception that MJ HIMSELF won those rings, what about Pippen, who won just as many. On top of that, using this analogy that ONE player won the rings, Pippen got the Bulls just as far in '94, withOUT MJ, as he did WITH MJ in '95. And,Pippen played on a Portland team that took the 99-00 Lakers to the final minutes of a game seven, as well.

And, once again, MJ was NO miracle worker. He played on FIVE losers in his career. He took a 27 win team to 38 wins in his first year. Bird, Kareem, D. Robinson, and Wilt all had far more IMPACT in their first season.

And uneducated fans, who never even saw Wilt and Russell play, believe the MYTH that Wilt was a "loser" (although he played on as many title teams as Olajuwon did.) The real FACTS were that Wilt carried inferior rosters for much of his career, to within an eyelash of beating the greatest dynasty in professional sports history. He played in FOUR game sevens, and those teams lost those games by a combined NINE points. I have documented the variety of reasons, as well...and they are all FACTUAL. He played on inferior rosters; and in several post-season games in which an opposing player hit a miracle shot to beat his team (1962 and TWO games in 1969); or a horribly officiated game that cost a HUGE under-dog team a title (game five of the 70 Finals); or where an opponent made a great play at the end of the game (65 ECF's game seven.)

Jordan supporters would argue that MJ would NEVER have lost a close game seven. MY take is that Jordan would never have gotten those teams that Wilt played on, nearly as far. For those that did not see him play, Elgin Baylor was a similar player to MJ. He and Jerry West are two of the greatest players ever (West had POST-SEASON numbers similar to MJ's BTW)...and yet, they went 0-7 against Russell's Celtics. Wilt not only played in four series in which he could easily have won...he DID lead a team to a convincing victory over the Celtics.

I have given the '86 Bulls as an example before, but here we go again...MJ played brilliantly, but he could not lead Chicago to even ONE win against the Celtics, and their FIVE HOFers. Meanwhile, Wilt took the same basic last-place roster that he joined in '60, to a game seven, two-point loss against the 62 Celtics..and their SIX HOFers.

You can find flaws in most all of the great players, as well. Kareem played on several 60+ win teams that did not win a championship. In fact, he was considered a huge disappointment until Magic arrived in 79-80. Shaq, as dominant as he was in so many post-seasons, played on several teams that got swept in the post-season.

Really, if you are using rings as a gauge, only Russell stands alone. His TEAMs won 11 titles in 13 seasons, and 27 playoff series in 29 tries. He also won with a 48 win team.

If you are using INDIVIDUAL domination...it is simply NO CONTEST...Wilt was the statistically most dominant player in ANY professional team sport.[/QUOTE]

You don't use "just rings", you don't use "just domination", or "just stats", you use EVERYTHING simultaneously, and Jordan simply has the best combination of stats per possession, rings he LED his team to, skill, domination, peak play, playoff and finals performances, awards, records, and impact on the game, of anyone to ever play.

That guy again... he always sucks Wilt's dick.

[QUOTE=jlauber]Yeah right. Chicago went 67-15 that year, while the Blazers went 57-25.[/QUOTE]

Although it was a little while ago, I am pretty sure I remember there being quite a lot of talk in the papers and on TV about how the Blazers were the more talented team and were going to dethrone the Bulls.

You being the great historian you are though, I did expect something better then "Bulls had a better record, ahahahahaahahhahahah"

[QUOTE=Soothsayer]No, Jordan did not play with the most talented cast in the 90s...far from it. Most of Jordan's cast were good role players.[/QUOTE]

:roll: t-rex, with an assist from the 94' Bulls, demolished this myth earlier in this thread. Facts are facts. Imagine, say, the Spurs without David Robinson. Oh wait. We saw the Spurs without D-Rob in 97'. They were a 25ish win team, not a team 2 games away from the #1 seed despite numerous injuries. Ewing, Hakeem, Robinson, Barkley (his Suns were strong but in 94' WITH Barkley they won only 1 more game than the Bulls did with Jordan being replaced by a D-Leaguer!), and even Malone would have killed for Jordan's "scrubs."

Jordan had a chance to win with scrubs, remember? He had another opportunity to do so in 99', fresh off his second MVP in three seasons, but quit because Scottie and Phil left and he--for whatever reason (take a guess :lol )--refused to play without them.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]:roll: [B]t-rex, with an assist from the 94' Bulls, demolished this myth earlier in this thread[/B]. Facts are facts. Imagine, say, the Spurs without David Robinson. Oh wait. We saw the Spurs without D-Rob in 97'. They were a 25ish win team, not a team 2 games away from the #1 seed despite numerous injuries. Ewing, Hakeem, Robinson, Barkley (his Suns were strong but in 94' WITH Barkley they won only 1 more game than the Bulls did with Jordan being replaced by a D-Leaguer!), and even Malone would have killed for Jordan's "scrubs."

Jordan had a chance to win with scrubs, remember? He had another opportunity to do so in 99', fresh off his second MVP in three seasons, but quit because Scottie and Phil left and he--for whatever reason (take a guess :lol )--refused to play without them.[/QUOTE]

No, he did not. If your measure of "talent" is a team winning 55 games, than there were FAR more "talented" teams in the 90s than MJ's supporting cast.

Plus, again, the 94 bulls were a 3 time championship squad who THEN added both Kerr and Kukoc to the mix. MJ did not play with either Kerr or Kukoc during his 91-93 ring seasons, thus, further diminshing the talent level Jordan played with vs. the 94 squad.

"Scrubs"....looks like YOU are the only one using this term. I used the term "role players" which Steve Kerr agrees with. MJ was surrounded by players, other than Pippen, who knew their roles well, and played them very well.

Before MJ's first ring in 91 nobody was talking about the immense wealth of talent on the Bulls other than an up and coming Pippen, and of course, Jordan himself.

Jordan and Pippen won with role players who knew and played their roles well.

And the Jordan's teammates certainly were not even close to the most talented team in the league in the 90s.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]:roll: t-rex, with an assist from the 94' Bulls, demolished this myth earlier in this thread. Facts are facts. Imagine, say, the Spurs without David Robinson. Oh wait. We saw the Spurs without D-Rob in 97'. They were a 25ish win team, not a team 2 games away from the #1 seed despite numerous injuries. Ewing, Hakeem, Robinson, Barkley (his Suns were strong but in 94' WITH Barkley they won only 1 more game than the Bulls did with Jordan being replaced by a D-Leaguer!), and even Malone would have killed for Jordan's "scrubs."

Jordan had a chance to win with scrubs, remember? He had another opportunity to do so in 99', fresh off his second MVP in three seasons, but quit because Scottie and Phil left and he--for whatever reason (take a guess :lol )--refused to play without them.[/QUOTE]


Wow, you clearly are either ignorant or forgot why the bulls were broken up. Reinsdorf and the boys did not want to continue paying Jordan and Pip sky high salaries when they were clearly past their primes. Phil, Jordan, and Pip all had been talking about this since 1997 and, no, Phil and Pippen did not decide to leave first, only to have Jordan "follow" them by leaving the bulls. Quit posting misinformation.

[QUOTE]No, he did not. If your measure of "talent" is a team winning 55 games, than there were FAR more "talented" teams in the 90s than MJ's supporting cast.[/QUOTE]

Such as? As t-rex showed, the Bulls WITHOUT Jordan did about as well as the other superstar's of that era WITH them.

The Knicks? 57 wins and needed Hue Hollins to beat the Bulls.

Spurs? 55 wins with Robinson and out in the first round.

Jazz? 53 wins.

Magic? 50 wins.

Rockets? 58 wins.

Suns? 56 wins.

If you broaden it to the entire 90's then you could cite the 95' and 96' Magic and that is about it. The Sonics were chronic underachievers, aside from 96', and had no bench. The Suns from 1993-1995 look good on paper but history showed that even with Barkley they were on par with the Bulls sans Jordan in 94'.

Talent does not by itself win games. The real question is how good a team is at winning and Jordan's "supporting cast" (a shameful term Jordan introduced to the basketball lexicon) was better than any other of the 90's. If you want to look at raw talent then the Jazz of recent years are a juggernaut with a borderline superstar in Deron Williams, an all-NBA caliber player in Boozer, two other all-star caliber players in AK-47 and Okur as well as other good players such as Harpring and Millsap. Yet what has that team achieved? No one 15 years from now is going to say Williams had a great "cast."

The real question is why ONLY MJ fans insist on diminishing his teammates. You don't see Kareem, Magic, Wilt, Russell, Bird, Shaq, Duncan, Hakeem, and Kobe fans do it. Among the top 10 only fans of the "clear GOAT" do this en masse. Strange...

[QUOTE]no, Phil and Pippen did not decide to leave first, only to have Jordan "follow" them by leaving the bulls.[/QUOTE]

:oldlol: at acting as if MJ retiring was a coincidence that had nothing to do with Pippen and Jackson. Jordan publicly announced numerous times that he would not come back unless both Pippen and Jackson were retained during the three-peat years. Once it was clear Jackson and Pippen would be gone, Jordan was out as well. To be fair, what would the point of going, at best, 45-37 be for Jordan? The only purpose would be to win without Pippen/Jackson but Jordan knew...

[QUOTE]the bulls were broken up. Reinsdorf and the boys did not want to continue paying [B]these Jordan and Pip sky high salaries [/B]when they were clearly past their primes. [/QUOTE]

Ignorance? Pip's sky high salary? He was the 122nd highest paid player in the NBA at $3 million in 1998. How could a "Jordan fan" who watched MJ in the 90's be unaware of this basic fact that came up so often in the saga of the 90's Bulls?

[QUOTE]MJ was surrounded by players, other than Pippen, who knew their roles well, and played them very well. [/QUOTE]

And? You act as if Hakeem, Ewing, Robinson and co. were surrounding by the Dream Team. Only Jordan and Malone had the luxury of having a second best player who was a superstar for several seasons (Shaq had prime Penny for 2 years). Hakeem had Thorpe until he was 33 or 34. Ewing had Starks. :roll: Robinson had Rodman, who caused chemistry problems in San Antonio and was a mere role player according to you. Quit putting Jordan's team out of context. It is no coincidence Jordan went from winning nothing to winning 6 rings in 7 seasons.

[QUOTE]Before MJ's first ring in 91 nobody was talking about the immense wealth of talent on the Bulls other than an up and coming Pippen, and of course, Jordan himself.[/QUOTE]

This is misleading. His team was indeed underrated--until Jordan retired 2 days before training camp (nice timing MJ! Another reason he is the clear GOAT :bowdown: ) and the Bulls proved their worth in 94'. They were so underrated most people had them missing the playoffs that year. Even Phil Jackson predicted a 42-40 record, because he assumed Jordan was worth 15-20 wins. What relevance then is the view of the team in 1991 when they were underrated for several more years until Jordan left? If Jordan never quit his "cast" would have forever been underrated. Fortunately, other than MJ fans, most people--especially those who saw the Bulls without MJ in action in 94'--realize how great a "cast" that was. No other "cast" in the 90's, other than the 96' Magic, could have remained elite without their best player.