Why is MJ considered better than Bill Russell?

[QUOTE]You tend to overlook why they finished in last place.

Do you need me to remind you or are you going to acknowledge the obvious reason and also point out that Wilt came to a team with 2 HOFers in their prime (same number as Russell did).

[/QUOTE]

Huh????

Let's take a look at their respective rosters in Wilt's rookie season...

Wilt did have ONE legitimate great teammate, Paul Arizin, but to say that he was in his prime is to say that almost all of Russell's HOF teammates were in their prime. Arizin was 31 in Wilt's rookie season, and was done by age 33.

You always bring up Wilt's HOF teammates, much like Bill Simmons, but you never put them in proper context. Wilt's other "HOF" teammate in that 59-60 season? The "great" Tom Gola. As I have stated many times, Gola was a CAREER 11.3 ppg, 7.8 rpg, .431 shooter. In his BEST season, he averaged 15.0 ppg, 10.4 rpg, and shot .433. I don't care how good a teammate he was, he was NOT a HOFer.

That reminds of those posters who point out the "fact" that Wilt had two All-Star teammates on his horribel 62-63 roster. Tom Meschery and Guy Rodgers. C'mon! Meschery was a ONE-TIME all-star, who DID play his BEST with Wilt...but 16.0 ppg, 9.8 rpg, and .425 shooting is NOT all-star level. As for Rodgers...quite possibly the WORST shooter in NBA history (a career .378 shooter, who NEVER once shot 40% in a season.) And before someone compares his shooting with Cousy...Cousy shot considerably better against the NBA league average, than Rodgers did. How bad a shooter was Rodgers? He had one season in which the league average was .446...and he shot .347!

So, we now KNOW that Chamberlain played with only ONE quality player in his rookie season. How about Russell in that 59-60 season? Sharman, Cousy, Heinsohn, Ramsey, Sam Jones, and KC Jones...ALL in the HOF. Two of those players were over 30...Cousy at 31, and Sharman at 33. So, here again, if Arizin was in his "prime" then so was Cousy. Now, if you want to argue that Ramsey and KC Jones are as questionable as Gola, fine. I will say that Ramsey was a better offensive player than Gola, and KC Jones was probably a better defensive player.

And of those seven players, only KC Jones averaged less 10 ppg in that 59-60 season. And along with Russell,...Ramsey, Sharman, Cousy, and Heinsohn all averaged over 15 ppg.

And, as bad as Wilt's teammates were, even those two "stars", Arizin and Gola, played horribly in their three post-seasons with Wilt. In Arizin's last two playoff seasons, he shot .328 and .375. In Gola's last three post-seasons with Wilt, he shot .412, .206, and .271. Yep, he was a HOFer alright.

So, as you can plainly see, Russell had a HUGE edge in surrounding talent. And that trend would continue until the mid-60's, when Wilt was traded to the Sixers. BUT, even THEN, Russell had more HOF teammates EVERY season until he retired.

And YOU know, as well as I, that, not only did Russell have more HOF teammates, he played with them MUCH longer. For those that have never read this before, Russell played alongside quailty teammates, TWICE as many minutes in his career, than Chamberlain...

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=4229[/url]

[QUOTE]"Now you can see Russell's "score" is more than twice that of Wilt,"

"Obviously this is just a fun exercise, and far from scientific, but you can still see that Chamberlain's teammates were in fact significantly less talented than Russell's, by both our Quality of Teammates metric and even by Bill Simmons' own ranking method. So I don't think it's quite fair to say, "let's never mention the supporting-cast card again with Russell and Chamberlain," because it's still pretty obvious that Wilt's supporting cast was inferior to Russell's by a good margin."[/QUOTE]

Furthermore, the idiotic Simmons says that Wilt played with nearly as many HOF teammates as Russell in his career. That is such a stretch of the truth. While Russell played alongside HIS HOF teammates for anywhere from six to 12 years, how about Wilt? Let's see...Chamberlain played with the great Nate Thurmond...ONE season...Thurmond's rookie year. AND, Nate was playing 26 mpg, and mostly out of position (he played PF that year...and he was a HOF center). Not only that, but he shot .395 from the field.

Then there was Gail Goodrich. OK,...except that Russell had retired by the time Goodrich played with Wilt. Furthermore, Wilt played with Goodrich for TWO seasons.

Simmons also loves to bring up Baylor. After all, Elgin played on Wilt's teams for four seasons. EXCEPT, that Wilt was injured for nearly all of one of them (69-70), while Baylor played in TWO early season games in 70-71, and then "retired" after nine games in the 71-72 season (and not surprisingly, the Lakers immediately won 33 straight games, en route to a title.) And even in the season that Wilt missed 70 games, Baylor missed 28. On top of all of that, Baylor was well past his prime...and like Arizin and Gola, he was AWFUL in his post-seasons in the seasons he played with Wilt. In their ONE "full" season together, 68-69, Baylor averaged 15.3 ppg on .385 shooting in the post-season.

Then there was Jerry West. Wilt and West played together for five seasons. While West missed a ton of games in those years, he at least played considerably more than Baylor. Still, West missed the entire last fourth of the 70-71 season, including the playoffs...which left Chamberlain without BOTH West and Baylor in the playoffs that year. He also missed 21 games in their inaugural season together (68-69), eight games in the year in which Wilt missed 70, and 13 games in Wilt's last season (72-73.) The only year in which West was reasonably healthy, the 71-72 season, the Lakers won the title. Of course, West had the worst shooting slump of his entire post-season career that year...but, fortunately for LA, Wilt dominated in the playoffs, and won the Finals MVP.

But, even if you are going to use West and Baylor in the Russell-Wilt debates...those two only played with Wilt, and against Russell, for ONE season (that 68-69 year.)

So that leaves Wilt's HOF teammates in his 3 1/2 years with the Sixers (from halfway thru the 64-65 season thru the 67-68 season.) Cunningham did not join Philly until the 65-66 season, and was awful in the post-season that year, shooting .161 in the playoffs. He also broke his wrist in the first round of the playoffs in the 67-68 season, and missed the ECF's, when Philly lost a game seven, by four points, to the Celtics.

The ONLY HOF teammate that Wilt could count on EVERY year he played with him, was Hal Greer, whom he played alongside for all three-and-half years in Philadelphia. BUT, even Greer had a meltdown in the '66 ECF's, when he shot .325. And, in game seven of the '68 ECF's, he shot 8-25 from the floor. Still, overall, Greer was a great player when he was paired with Wilt.

Chamberlain also played alongside both Chet Walker and Luke Jackson in those 3 1/2 years, and while both had injury or shooting slumps in the post-season, they were exceptionally good players. But, if you are going to include them in any discussion about quality teammates, then you can argue that Russell had Bailey Howell, a HOFer and a deadly 20 ppg scorer in his Celtic years, and Satch Sanders, whom many regarded as one of the best defensive forwards of his era.

And, of course, Russell had those others. Cousy, Heinsohn, Sharman, Jones, Jones, Ramsey, and Havlicek...and for MANY years. Furthermore, Sam Jones and Havlicek were legitimate 25-30 ppg scorers in their careers, and in fact, Havlicke had a season AFTER Russell, in which he averaged 28.9 ppg.

On top of those players, Russell also had Lovelette and Embry...both in the HOF...as well as players like Don Nelson, Larry Siegfried, and even Don Chaney.

Once again, Russell enjoyed an edge in HOFers, in Wilt's first six years, by margins of 7-3, 7-3, 6-3, 8-1, 7-2, and 5-2. Even in his last four years he had margins of 4-3, 6-3 (in a year in which Philly destroyed them in the ECF's, 4-1), 5-3 (and it was 5-2 in the ECF's, as Cunningham missed the entire series), and 4-3 (and as always, a much deeper bench.)

Now, do you still want to say that Wilt played with the same number of "prime" HOFers as Chamberlain? That was completely ridiculous. Russell had an overwhelming edge in talent in the vast majority of his H2H seasons with Wilt, and an edge in EVERY season.

[QUOTE=jlauber]If Russell wanted to be GOAT he should have gotten to the gym and worked on his low post game.[/QUOTE]

I would have thought that being the best player on 2 NCAA championships, an Olympic championship and 11 NBA championships within 16 years would be his calling card. Or not.

Where's the stat we keep for intelligence? For knowing how to win. For intensity and clutch performance. For those of us you never got to seem him play, I read somewhere, that Russell's defensive impact was the same as Jordan's offensive impact. I don't remember if they had any stats to back that up. John Wooden said he was the most complete defensive player he ever saw.

How much higher would his reputation be if the video highlights of the "Coleman play" were rerun as much as Jordan's winning shots over Cleveland or Utah. Russell.

[QUOTE=KevinNYC]I would have thought that being the best player on 2 NCAA championships, an Olympic championship and 11 NBA championships within 16 years would be his calling card. Or not.

Where's the stat we keep for intelligence? For knowing how to win. For intensity and clutch performance. For those of us you never got to seem him play, I read somewhere, that Russell's defensive impact was the same as Jordan's offensive impact. I don't remember if they had any stats to back that up. John Wooden said he was the most complete defensive player he ever saw.

How much higher would his reputation be if the video highlights of the "Coleman play" were rerun as much as Jordan's winning shots over Cleveland or Utah. Russell.[/QUOTE]

First of all, I NEVER made that comment. That was Pointguard.

Secondly, Russell WAS a great player. I don't have a problem with those that rank him as the GOAT. In fact, I have him #1 on MY list. What I DO have a problem with, are those that disparage Chamberlain in the Russell-Wilt debates. I am so sck-and-tired of reading that Wilt was a "failure", a "loser" and a "choker." Or that Russell dominated him. The facts were, Wilt got TWELVE teams to at least the Conference Finals, in his 14 seasons, as well as SIX Finals. His TEAM's, despite being outgunned by HOFers in almost every post-season, narrowly missed FIVE more titles (losing five game seven's, and four of them to Boston, by a combined nine points.)

Furthermore, Chamberlain was BRILLIANT in his post-season career. I could only find ONE post-season playoff series, out of 29, in which he was outshot from the field by an opposing center (and in that series, he only missed 20 shots, while Kareem missed 107.) AND, Chamberlain was NEVER outrebounded by an opposing center in ANY of those 29 series. And he faced a HOF center in nearly two-thirds of his 160 post-season games, too (as well as All-Star centers in a couple as well.) In fact, he was seldom outplayed in those 160 games, and in MANY cases he just crushed the opposing center (including even Russell on more than one occasion.)

As for "clutch" play...how about these numbers? In his NINE game sevens in his post-season career, he averaged 24.4 ppg, 26.5 rpg, and shot .626 from the floor (which, BTW, is the highest FG% by a "great" player in NBA history.) And, that does not include a game five in a best-of-five playoff series, in which he put up a 56 point, 35 rebound game, either!

In his four game seven's against Russell, he outscored Russell by 21.3 ppg to 13.2 ppg; he outrebounded Russell, in those four games, by a 28.5 rpg to 24.5 rpg; and he shot a staggering .652 against Russell in those four games, as well (and while we only have two of Russell's FG% numbers in those four games, Russell only shot .391 in those two games.)

Yep...that was Wilt the "choker."

[QUOTE=AllenIverson3]ur a ****in dumb ass...Robert Horry has 7 rings....Is he better than shaq, duncan, jordan kobe??? gtfo with that logic... u must be no older than 12 years old.[/QUOTE]


:lol Im a dumbass??? And ur the one comparing Robert Horry's [U]role[/U] to Kobe's, Shaq's, Jordans, Magic's and Duncans??? LMFAO :facepalm Fuking idiot, sit ur ass down

[QUOTE=jlauber]Huh????

Let's take a look at their respective rosters in Wilt's rookie season...

Wilt did have ONE legitimate great teammate, Paul Arizin, but to say that he was in his prime is to say that almost all of Russell's HOF teammates were in their prime. Arizin was 31 in Wilt's rookie season, and was done by age 33.

You always bring up Wilt's HOF teammates, much like Bill Simmons, but you never put them in proper context. Wilt's other "HOF" teammate in that 59-60 season? The "great" Tom Gola. As I have stated many times, Gola was a CAREER 11.3 ppg, 7.8 rpg, .431 shooter. In his BEST season, he averaged 15.0 ppg, 10.4 rpg, and shot .433. I don't care how good a teammate he was, he was NOT a HOFer.

That reminds of those posters who point out the "fact" that Wilt had two All-Star teammates on his horribel 62-63 roster. Tom Meschery and Guy Rodgers. C'mon! Meschery was a ONE-TIME all-star, who DID play his BEST with Wilt...but 16.0 ppg, 9.8 rpg, and .425 shooting is NOT all-star level. As for Rodgers...quite possibly the WORST shooter in NBA history (a career .378 shooter, who NEVER once shot 40% in a season.) And before someone compares his shooting with Cousy...Cousy shot considerably better against the NBA league average, than Rodgers did. How bad a shooter was Rodgers? He had one season in which the league average was .446...and he shot .347!

So, we now KNOW that Chamberlain played with only ONE quality player in his rookie season. How about Russell in that 59-60 season? Sharman, Cousy, Heinsohn, Ramsey, Sam Jones, and KC Jones...ALL in the HOF. Two of those players were over 30...Cousy at 31, and Sharman at 33. So, here again, if Arizin was in his "prime" then so was Cousy. Now, if you want to argue that Ramsey and KC Jones are as questionable as Gola, fine. I will say that Ramsey was a better offensive player than Gola, and KC Jones was probably a better defensive player.

And of those seven players, only KC Jones averaged less 10 ppg in that 59-60 season. And along with Russell,...Ramsey, Sharman, Cousy, and Heinsohn all averaged over 15 ppg.

And, as bad as Wilt's teammates were, even those two "stars", Arizin and Gola, played horribly in their three post-seasons with Wilt. In Arizin's last two playoff seasons, he shot .328 and .375. In Gola's last three post-seasons with Wilt, he shot .412, .206, and .271. Yep, he was a HOFer alright.

So, as you can plainly see, Russell had a HUGE edge in surrounding talent. And that trend would continue until the mid-60's, when Wilt was traded to the Sixers. BUT, even THEN, Russell had more HOF teammates EVERY season until he retired.

And YOU know, as well as I, that, not only did Russell have more HOF teammates, he played with them MUCH longer. For those that have never read this before, Russell played alongside quailty teammates, TWICE as many minutes in his career, than Chamberlain...

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=4229[/url]



Furthermore, the idiotic Simmons says that Wilt played with nearly as many HOF teammates as Russell in his career. That is such a stretch of the truth. While Russell played alongside HIS HOF teammates for anywhere from six to 12 years, how about Wilt? Let's see...Chamberlain played with the great Nate Thurmond...ONE season...Thurmond's rookie year. AND, Nate was playing 26 mpg, and mostly out of position (he played PF that year...and he was a HOF center). Not only that, but he shot .395 from the field.

Then there was Gail Goodrich. OK,...except that Russell had retired by the time Goodrich played with Wilt. Furthermore, Wilt played with Goodrich for TWO seasons.

Simmons also loves to bring up Baylor. After all, Elgin played on Wilt's teams for four seasons. EXCEPT, that Wilt was injured for nearly all of one of them (69-70), while Baylor played in TWO early season games in 70-71, and then "retired" after nine games in the 71-72 season (and not surprisingly, the Lakers immediately won 33 straight games, en route to a title.) And even in the season that Wilt missed 70 games, Baylor missed 28. On top of all of that, Baylor was well past his prime...and like Arizin and Gola, he was AWFUL in his post-seasons in the seasons he played with Wilt. In their ONE "full" season together, 68-69, Baylor averaged 15.3 ppg on .385 shooting in the post-season.

Then there was Jerry West. Wilt and West played together for five seasons. While West missed a ton of games in those years, he at least played considerably more than Baylor. Still, West missed the entire last fourth of the 70-71 season, including the playoffs...which left Chamberlain without BOTH West and Baylor in the playoffs that year. He also missed 21 games in their inaugural season together (68-69), eight games in the year in which Wilt missed 70, and 13 games in Wilt's last season (72-73.) The only year in which West was reasonably healthy, the 71-72 season, the Lakers won the title. Of course, West had the worst shooting slump of his entire post-season career that year...but, fortunately for LA, Wilt dominated in the playoffs, and won the Finals MVP.

But, even if you are going to use West and Baylor in the Russell-Wilt debates...those two only played with Wilt, and against Russell, for ONE season (that 68-69 year.)

So that leaves Wilt's HOF teammates in his 3 1/2 years with the Sixers (from halfway thru the 64-65 season thru the 67-68 season.) Cunningham did not join Philly until the 65-66 season, and was awful in the post-season that year, shooting .161 in the playoffs. He also broke his wrist in the first round of the playoffs in the 67-68 season, and missed the ECF's, when Philly lost a game seven, by four points, to the Celtics.

The ONLY HOF teammate that Wilt could count on EVERY year he played with him, was Hal Greer, whom he played alongside for all three-and-half years in Philadelphia. BUT, even Greer had a meltdown in the '66 ECF's, when he shot .325. And, in game seven of the '68 ECF's, he shot 8-25 from the floor. Still, overall, Greer was a great player when he was paired with Wilt.

Chamberlain also played alongside both Chet Walker and Luke Jackson in those 3 1/2 years, and while both had injury or shooting slumps in the post-season, they were exceptionally good players. But, if you are going to include them in any discussion about quality teammates, then you can argue that Russell had Bailey Howell, a HOFer and a deadly 20 ppg scorer in his Celtic years, and Satch Sanders, whom many regarded as one of the best defensive forwards of his era.

And, of course, Russell had those others. Cousy, Heinsohn, Sharman, Jones, Jones, Ramsey, and Havlicek...and for MANY years. Furthermore, Sam Jones and Havlicek were legitimate 25-30 ppg scorers in their careers, and in fact, Havlicke had a season AFTER Russell, in which he averaged 28.9 ppg.

On top of those players, Russell also had Lovelette and Embry...both in the HOF...as well as players like Don Nelson, Larry Siegfried, and even Don Chaney.

Once again, Russell enjoyed an edge in HOFers, in Wilt's first six years, by margins of 7-3, 7-3, 6-3, 8-1, 7-2, and 5-2. Even in his last four years he had margins of 4-3, 6-3 (in a year in which Philly destroyed them in the ECF's, 4-1), 5-3 (and it was 5-2 in the ECF's, as Cunningham missed the entire series), and 4-3 (and as always, a much deeper bench.)

Now, do you still want to say that Wilt played with the same number of "prime" HOFers as Chamberlain? That was completely ridiculous. Russell had an overwhelming edge in talent in the vast majority of his H2H seasons with Wilt, and an edge in EVERY season.[/QUOTE]

No I'm sorry that's all wrong.

The correct answer, was Neil Johnston suffered a career ending injury.

That's Neil Johnston, career ending injury.

Better luck next time.

[QUOTE=G.O.A.T]No I'm sorry that's all wrong.

The correct answer, was Neil Johnston suffered a career ending injury.

That's Neil Johnston, career ending injury.

Better luck next time.[/QUOTE]

So you are claiming that Wilt's Warriors were NOT a LAST-PLACE team before he arrived???? Because YOU are dead wrong. Meanwhile Russell not only went to a playoff contender, he joined ROY teammate Tom Heinsohn in HIS rooke year.

[QUOTE=jlauber]So you are claiming that Wilt's Warriors were NOT a LAST-PLACE team before he arrived???? Because YOU are dead wrong. Meanwhile Russell not only went to a playoff contender, he joined ROY teammate Tom Heinsohn in HIS rooke year.[/QUOTE]

I repeat they were a last place team because their franchise center suffered a career ending injury during that season.

Never once have you even acknowledged that this happened let alone mention it unprovoked.

I can also tell you that the EXACT SAME core of players Arizin, Gola, Graboski and a healthy Johnston plus Jack George won the NBA title in '56 and were in the Eastern Finals in '58.

Can also tell you that Gola actually received votes in the 1970 poll for greatest player of all time, but you'll still foolishly believe and try to convince others to believe that he was a undeserving or borderline Hall of Famer like KC Jones and Frank Ramsey.

You don't care though, your mind is made up, I'm wasting as little time as possible.

You forget that this is a team game. And also no one here can really tell if Russell was greater. They haven't seen Rusell play and even if they would, he is a center and more defensive minded and jordan is a sg and more offensive minded. You can hardly compare guys like that, that's because I'm really not a fan of the whole goat list, because comparing is even harder between diffrent postitions, let alone era. All of you guys in this thread who think they can say who the better player was are just have an opinion with not much based on.

[QUOTE=G.O.A.T]
A lot of our disagree is over semantics, but this is where you lose me completely.

For Russell to be considered the greatest you believe he would have had to do something that he proved he didn't need to do for his team to win?

He should have not done what he did do, which always worked, and instead done something arbitrary to meet your standard?[/quote]

I hear what you are saying. But why rest on your laurels. He could have gotten better to insure his team would be in the best possible place to win the championship. After Jordan figured out the winning thing he developed a jump shot. He improved himself to make sure there would be no chance to doubt. Russell's neglecting to develop his game left several titles up for grabs - sure he won in the end but he could have made sure it wasn't close. There were a couple of titles where if Sam Jones or Tommy Heinsohn got into foul trouble, the team could look at the option of having more skilled offense. Those guys were key to outscoring a lot teams in game sevens. Jordan wasn't in too many game sevens but he made sure that he would be in the best position possible for his team to win.
[quote]
All the other players whose weaknesses you listed cost them and their teams title's, Russell's did not. Only an injury and the Greatest Single Season performance by a player in NBA history did. [/quote]
A true-ism. But it can also be interpreted as to how much of a good situation he was in. He didn't have to shoot the 10,000 a year the other great players did. He didn't have to dribble for hours at night. That onus was never on him. With great responsibility comes greatness. I just happen to think that you have to risk for greatness. Put yourself out there and develop yourself to be in a great situation. It might be my interpretation of greatness. I see your point and I have him 4th on my list which is great.
[quote]
Luckily for Russell, he figured out that as a center in the 1950's and 60's about 95% of the time he'd be playing the game without the ball in hand, I'd say he had the right approach.[/QUOTE]
Yes, for winning... for greatness you work with the 5%.

[QUOTE=KevinNYC]I would have thought that being the best player on 2 NCAA championships, an Olympic championship and 11 NBA championships within 16 years would be his calling card. Or not.

Where's the stat we keep for intelligence? For knowing how to win. For intensity and clutch performance. For those of us you never got to seem him play, I read somewhere, that Russell's defensive impact was the same as Jordan's offensive impact. I don't remember if they had any stats to back that up. John Wooden said he was the most complete defensive player he ever saw.

How much higher would his reputation be if the video highlights of the "Coleman play" were rerun as much as Jordan's winning shots over Cleveland or Utah. Russell.[/QUOTE]
Actually that was me Kevin, who said that not Jluaber.

Russell was a great defensive player, an intelligent team player, a true winner, a ferocious competitor, one of the greatest winners in team sports. He's definitive top five with me and GWOAT. When the critical side of me goes at GOAT work, I find little wrong with Jordan's resume. Chamberlain's resume speaks the language of greatness - setting the bar in a fantasy place and doing it in several ways.

I do not believe that Russell's defensive impact was worth Chamberlain's 31 ppg, 3 rebounds advantage on Bill along with Wilt's very good defense in the equation: To me the difference should never be on the level of adding a Kevin Durant to a player. Russell came into the league a defensive player and his impact was immediate - but he wasn't so great that everybody started paying attention to defense - in fact the opposite is true - the league went bananas offensively.

If Wilt played today - he's still great. With Russell that's not a given. If anything, greatness lingers. It inspires others. Other players don't cite Russell as a player to aspire to. They aspire to the rings he wears but you don't hear players saying I asked for the Russelll tapes. Part of my nature is that I don't like to be blindsided by anything. There are videos of Russell in his greatest years on youtube. You can see the greatness in Chamberlain after his peak physical condition on youtube.

You say:
[quote]
Where's the stat we keep for intelligence? For knowing how to win. For intensity and clutch performance. [/quote]
I do have a pet peeve with you if Magic or Bird isn't top five on your GOAT list. I have a pet peeve when people who have Russell as their GOAT and then you catch them arguing that Barkley is greater than KG. Then I know its just a ring thing and no other sophistication has gone into it. Ben Wallace could have been part of a 4 year dynasty (Possibly two years as the best player) if Dumar's drafts Wade instead of Darko. If SA doesn't luck up in the lottery David Robinson doesn't sniff a ring. Ben Wallace greater than David Robinson. No sophistication needed. Its a cop out.

Just the way I see things. I'm not claiming an ultimate truth either

[QUOTE=G-Funk]:lol Im a dumbass??? And ur the one comparing Robert Horry's [U]role[/U] to Kobe's, Shaq's, Jordans, Magic's and Duncans??? LMFAO :facepalm Fuking idiot, sit ur ass down[/QUOTE]

Did you not understand his post at all, he's not seriously comparing them. He's using it as an example to show the flaw in your original post.

*Just been a victim of trolling*

I know it, you know it, we all know it. But still, had to say it.

[quote=andgar923]Wilt isn't better than MJ either, sorry.

And if we wanted to accept that, then MJ had more rings than Wilt and more talent than Bill, so......

Again.... as somebody mentioned earlier, the other player that has a more legit argument is Kareem.[/quote][I]

"Wilt was big on stats. One time he called me up and said, 'You know, Harvey, Michael Jordan can't hit a shot beyond 15 feet?'

I said, 'How do you know that?'

He said to me, 'Don't you watch the games?'

I said, 'I don't watch stuff like that. How do you know?'

He said, 'I watch it.'

So, during the height of Michael's career, I got the play-by-play of the first 20 Bulls games and I checked the distance of every shot Jordan took during the season and sure enough, he was shooting 38 percent from 15 feet back. So, I did 20 more and came up with the same result. So then I said, if I did 40, I might as well do 82. Wilt

[QUOTE=jlauber]First of all, I NEVER made that comment. That was Pointguard.
[/QUOTE]

My bad. I think I got logged out and then when I came back in, I must have replied to the wrong post.

Does anyone else read all those Wilt quotes as a guy who is jealous that other people are being praised? Probably the same instinct that led him to brag about the number of women he has slept with.

[QUOTE=PHILA][I]

"Wilt was big on stats. One time he called me up and said, 'You know, Harvey, Michael Jordan can't hit a shot beyond 15 feet?'

I said, 'How do you know that?'

He said to me, 'Don't you watch the games?'

I said, 'I don't watch stuff like that. How do you know?'

He said, 'I watch it.'

So, during the height of Michael's career, I got the play-by-play of the first 20 Bulls games and I checked the distance of every shot Jordan took during the season and sure enough, he was shooting 38 percent from 15 feet back. So, I did 20 more and came up with the same result. So then I said, if I did 40, I might as well do 82. Wilt