Would Bulls fans trade Derrick Rose for LeBron James if they had the chance?

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]LOL

Being on the floor longer leads to more opportunities to be fouled. Another flawed way of thinking. You don't have to shoot to get to the ft line.[/QUOTE]
And do those points you get not count or something? Fact is he gets to the line at a better rate relative to his FGA. That's what FTR is. If someone's on the floor drawing more fouls while not taking more shots at the same time, it's more efficient regardless of minutes.

[QUOTE=chazzy]And do those points you get not count or something? Fact is he gets to the line at a better rate relative to his FGA. That's what FTR is. If someone's on the floor drawing more fouls while not taking more shots at the same time, it's more efficient regardless of minutes.[/QUOTE]

No, its not more efficient. Deng was getting to the line more per minute on the floor back in 07. That is more efficient.

You keep equating shooting more with getting to the line more. That is not how it works actually.

Anything to artificially drive up efficiency in some manner.

You keep saying TS is just about efficiency. Its not. Its about over valuing a 3.

FG% is just about efficiency from the field. its counts all makes and misses. thats all it does. if you want to look at free throws, look at FTA and percentage. not hard.

take two players:

25 points on 50% fg 85% ft on 7 attempts
25 points on 45% fg 85% ft on 7 attempts

The first player is more efficient. He's scoring his points while missing less shots. That is what efficiency is. Efficiency is about who misses less.

True Shooting could come in and depending on how many threes each take, could actually favor the 2nd player. How does that make sense? FG% accounts for all shots...both 2s and 3s.

True Shooting masks missed shots....which is the entire reason for having efficiency measures in the first place.

Really the only time TS and EFG should come into play is with true specialists. Like straight up 3 point shooters that rarely take and 2's. But even then, you can just look at 3pt percentage and attempts.

Hold on a second.. Rose is doing exactly what Lebron has been doing for years now, leading his team to #1 in the East. Its not like Rose is doing something Lebron can't do. You guys have to wait see what Rose can do in the Playoffs before going off choosing Rose. Lebron even lead a team without guys like Boozer and Noah to 2 straight 60+ seasons.

[QUOTE=Nash]Hold on a second.. Rose is doing exactly what Lebron has been doing for years now, leading his team to #1 in the East. Its not like Rose is doing something Lebron can't do. You guys have to wait see what Rose can do in the Playoffs before going off choosing Rose. Lebron even lead a team without guys like Boozer and Noah to 2 straight 60+ seasons.[/QUOTE]


Lebron has played with a guy exactly like Boozer (lmao) and a guy a lot like Noah (Varejao).

Rose also is cheaper, sells more jerseys, and is less drama.

All things Pax and Gar (and Chicago) value.

Bron would **** around and get blasted by some GD's talking about "check my stats." Rose knows how to manuever through Chicago.:lol

Also, what makes the Bulls so good is their AMAZING defense. What Rose offers this team, Lebron could offer exactly the same and even more. Bulls would be equally as good with Rose, Lebron, Wade or Kobe. Its their defense that makes them the team they are, not Rose.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]No, its not more efficient. Deng was getting to the line more per minute on the floor back in 07. That is more efficient.

You keep equating shooting more with getting to the line more. That is not how it works actually.

Anything to artificially drive up efficiency in some manner.

You keep saying TS is just about efficiency. Its not. Its about over valuing a 3.

FG% is just about efficiency from the field. its counts all makes and misses. thats all it does. if you want to look at free throws, look at FTA and percentage. not hard.

take two players:

25 points on 50% fg 85% ft on 7 attempts
25 points on 45% fg 85% ft on 7 attempts

The first player is more efficient. He's scoring his points while missing less shots. That is what efficiency is. Efficiency is about who misses less.

True Shooting could come in and depending on how many threes each take, could actually favor the 2nd player. How does that make sense? FG% accounts for all shots...both 2s and 3s.

True Shooting masks missed shots....which is the entire reason for having efficiency measures in the first place.[/QUOTE]
If TS% masks negatives, then only using FG% masks positives. Someone could shoot 6/12 and score 12 points, and another player could shoot 4/10 and 6/6 from the line for 14 points. Same amount of misses. Player A is viewed as having the better game because he shot 50%, player B is viewed as the chucker because he shot 40%. When people list stats, they only use FG% and never FTA/%, and 3PA/%. Do you consider Manu efficient this year? He's only shooting 43% but 2 of his 5.6 makes are 3s and he gets to the line 5+ times to go along with only 13 FGA.

Misses hurt, yeah. But do misses hurt when you score well on high volume?

And getting to the line more relative to your FGA is in fact part of efficiency because more of your scoring attempts consist of taking easier, higher percentage shots from the line instead of shots from the field.

[QUOTE=Nash]Also, what makes the Bulls so good is their AMAZING defense. What Rose offers this team, Lebron could offer exactly the same and even more. Bulls would be equally as good with Rose, Lebron, Wade or Kobe. Its their defense that makes them the team they are, not Rose.[/QUOTE]

We all know this.

I love how a team with Boozer, Deng, and Noah is now not better than the garbage Lebron had.

Only on ISH can this be true. Hilarious.

[QUOTE=Go Getter]Lebron has played with a guy exactly like Boozer (lmao) and a guy a lot like Noah (Varejao).

Rose also is cheaper, sells more jerseys, and is less drama.

All things Pax and Gar (and Chicago) value.

Bron would **** around and get blasted by some GD's talking about "check my stats." Rose knows how to manuever through Chicago.:lol[/QUOTE]
So you're telling me that Varejao is like Noah? Are you kidding me right now? And Boozer is an all star, who is the all star Lebron used to play with?

Also, financially, Lebron would bring in a lot more money than Rose ever would. Lebron and Kobe are on another level when it comes to marketing and bringing revenues. Lebron is a money machine and one of the most known athletes in the world.

when the Cavs and Mike Brown had one of if not THE best defense in the league no one discredit Lebron's MVP potential because of it.

No one said Jordan wasn't an MVP because the Bulls were the best defensive team in the NBA (and Scottie took the tough defensive assignment for Jordan a lot).

EVERY top team has a top defense.

The Celts had one last night and Rose torched them.


Ya'll kill me trying to discredit Rose's candidacy because of the teams's D.

D. Rose is a part of the team d so he should get part of the credit there as well should he not? We don't have a Scottie, Mutumbo, Dwight, or Russell on our team.

[QUOTE=Go Getter]1.) Deng is not the player you count on to score when you need it. He followed up a 40 point game this year with a dud. He used to disappear in games but you wouldn't know that because you look at stats and not game footage.

2.) No, he cannot get his own shot off against tough d. Not on a regular basis at all. You are wrong sir.


3.) His defense has improved, he is more consistent....in 07 he was not as good of a finisher as he is now....he's more consistent now, and he plays more minutes and has more confidence. (also things you can tell by WATCHING GAMES).[/QUOTE]

1 and 2) can't score when needed? funny, i believe he finished the heat off in their last two meetings. one a clutch 3, and the other getting to the rim, creating his own shot and getting to the line.

3) watching games, watching games, watching games. this is the new fad on here. finish the argument with 'if you actually watched the games'.
what exactly do you think people on a basketball forum do? watch beach volleyball?

[QUOTE=Nash]So you're telling me that Varejao is like Noah? Are you kidding me right now? And Boozer is an all star, who is the all star Lebron used to play with?

Also, financially, Lebron would bring in a lot more money than Rose ever would. Lebron and Kobe are on another level when it comes to marketing and bringing revenues. Lebron is a money machine and one of the most known athletes in the world.[/QUOTE]


Lebron played with Boozer silly....and he also played with Jamison (former All-Star) and Shaq.

Noah and varejoa have similar skillsets.

Lebron does not sell more jerseys than Rose.

Lebron could not put more butts in the seats than Rose--we already are #1 in attendance.

So who would he make more money for? The city? The team? Or himself?

[QUOTE=Go Getter]when the Cavs and Mike Brown had one of if not THE best defense in the league no one discredit Lebron's MVP potential because of it.

No one said Jordan wasn't an MVP because the Bulls were the best defensive team in the NBA (and Scottie took the tough defensive assignment for Jordan a lot).

EVERY top team has a top defense.

The Celts had one last night and Rose torched them.


Ya'll kill me trying to discredit Rose's candidacy because of the teams's D.

D. Rose is a part of the team d so he should get part of the credit there as well should he not? We don't have a Scottie, Mutumbo, Dwight, or Russell on our team.[/QUOTE]
Nobody is trying to discredit what Rose is doing, he will be the mvp. But being an all star isn't something that Lebron, Wade and Kobe can't achieve.

Also, you can't compare Bulls and Lebrons Cavs, no way man. Just the fact that Cleveland became THE WORST NBA TEAM IN HISTORY when Lebron left tells you a lot about what he was dealing with. Do you think that the Bulls would be the worst team in history if Rose left? Do you think a team with Noah, Deng and Boozer would be the worst in NBA history?

[QUOTE=Nash]Also, what makes the Bulls so good is their AMAZING defense. What Rose offers this team, Lebron could offer exactly the same and even more. Bulls would be equally as good with Rose, Lebron, Wade or Kobe. Its their defense that makes them the team they are, not Rose.[/QUOTE]


Lebron could not handle the ball as much as Rose with the same efficiency. He is not a PG, athlough he has the skills.

Rose offers a different style than the other players and the team would not be exactly the same with other stars in place of Rose.

maybe they'd be better in some cases...in others they would be worse.

But at 22 there is no way I'm trading him for Kobe, Wade, or yes, even Lebron.

[QUOTE=Go Getter]when the Cavs and Mike Brown had one of if not THE best defense in the league no one discredit Lebron's MVP potential because of it.

No one said Jordan wasn't an MVP because the Bulls were the best defensive team in the NBA (and Scottie took the tough defensive assignment for Jordan a lot).

EVERY top team has a top defense.

The Celts had one last night and Rose torched them.


Ya'll kill me trying to discredit Rose's candidacy because of the teams's D.

D. Rose is a part of the team d so he should get part of the credit there as well should he not? We don't have a Scottie, Mutumbo, Dwight, or Russell on our team.[/QUOTE]

both jordan and lebron actually played good defense. rose doesnt.

both jordan and lebron could expect a loss when they had a poor shooting night. rose can expect a win no matter how he plays.

rose this season is the only mvp candidate this season who plays better in losses than wins.

[QUOTE=chazzy]If TS% masks negatives, then only using FG% masks positives. Someone could shoot 6/12 and score 12 points, and another player could shoot 4/10 and 6/6 from the line for 14 points. Same amount of misses. Player A is viewed as having the better game because he shot 50%, player B is viewed as the chucker because he shot 40%. When people list stats, they only use FG% and never FTA/%, and 3PA/%. Do you consider Manu efficient this year? He's only shooting 43% but 2 of his 5.6 makes are 3s and he gets to the line 5+ times to go along with only 13 FGA

Misses hurt, yeah. But do misses hurt when you score well on high volume?[/QUOTE]

Which is why you should look at everything. Not just one or the other. Like I keep saying. In some cases...hell, in plenty of cases, TS% is as good or better of a measure than just fg%.

But i'm not using just fg%. I'm using everything. You, and others are proponents of just using TS%. In many cases it does not reflect what is really happening.

Which is why I prefer to look at all the raw data. It gives you a better idea.

If we are solely talking stats...this is what i would want to know.

FG% and attempts, 3pt percentage and attempts, FT% and attempts.

I think what many people ignore is that the PPG stat in and of itself is evident of many of these things when you combine i with fga. just from that we can see if a player is taking more threes or scoring a lot at the ft line.

My opinion overall is that TS is more flawed because it masks missed shots....and missed shots kill.

There are plenty of cases I'm sure you could find that TS is a better measure and vice versa.

In this case with Deng, the TS metric is valuing threes too much.