Joakim Noah fined $50K for using anti-gay slur from bench during Heat-Bulls Game 3

[QUOTE=comerb]Yep, its the special interest groups that blow everything out of proportion. America has become pussyfied to a ridiculous extreme the last decade or so.

But the media certainly doesn't help by reporting on stupid shit like this like anyone other than the loudmouth minority cares.[/QUOTE]
I bet most americans don't give a sht about what he said, the media is just doing what they do.

[QUOTE=JMT]Dude, I made no reference to you, and certainly didn't say or imply that you were arguing in Noah's favor. But there are people, in both threads, that are taking his side.

Christ, get them out of a bunch. It's really not all about you.[/QUOTE]

You and I were arguing directly back and forth moments ago. So it's reasonable to assume I was an intended target for that comment. Especially since earlier you more or less insinuated at one point I'm defending Noah, until I clarified that I'm not in favor of his actions.

Sorry if I incorrectly assumed you were addressing me in particular..... [I]dude.[/I]

[QUOTE=InfiniteBaskets]You can't compare playing in the NBA to an average service job. The fan was most likely heckling Noah as he picked up his second foul. How often do customers for no reason come to your place of employment and start talking trash to you? It's part of the nature of the NBA.

If Noah does get fined, the reason won't be because he yelled at one of the millions of paying customers who go to NBA games each year. Losing one fan's money isn't going to put a dent in the NBA's wallet. Noah will get fined because he was caught on camera saying the slur while wearing an NBA uniform.

Stern isn't going to make money by letting people think that the NBA is a league with no tolerance towards homosexuals. It's not because the NBA as a league is becoming soft and cracking down on every little thing. It's because the US culture as a whole is much more accepting towards minority groups today than back in the 80s. By letting the general public think the NBA is filled with a bunch of overpaid athletic freaks who turn their noses at homosexuality, you're narrowing the market and possibly making your games less family friendly.

Had Noah's comment not been caught on camera, nobody would've given two sh*ts about the fan's hurt feelings or the amount of money lost by him never attending an NBA game ever again in his lifetime.[/QUOTE]

Your argument is all over the place, so I'm really not sure what point you're trying to make.

If it hadn't been caught on camera, it wouldn't be a big deal? Duh. And if a tree falls in the woods..

You know of jobs...service or otherwise... where it would be acceptable to call a customer what Noah called the fan?

If Noah had called the guy a phucking a-hole...instead of a gay slur... he wouldn't be facing scrutiny and an anticipated fine?

Stern isn't going to make money? So, it's healthy for any business to show that it tolerates such behavior?

[QUOTE=Cangri]I bet most americans don't give a sht about what he said, the media is just doing what they do.[/QUOTE]

No I would assume it does impact a segment of people, the gay community in particular. Having said that, I agree with what Basketball fan says above: If the NBA is going to go PC, then go all the way. Lebron should have been fined for saying 'retarded' last week. Players should be banned from cursing, or even trash talking to each other, as courtside fans can surely hear some of it. Profanity should be punishable, because we've seen plenty of games where you've heard very clear profanity, surely that's insulting to someone. Just breathing too hard is insulting someone nowadays.....

[QUOTE=Dragonyeuw]Sorry if I incorrectly assumed you were addressing me in particular..... [I]dude.[/I][/QUOTE]

Apology accepted.

[QUOTE=JMT]Your argument is all over the place, so I'm really not sure what point you're trying to make.

If it hadn't been caught on camera, it wouldn't be a big deal? Duh. And if a tree falls in the woods..

You know of jobs...service or otherwise... where it would be acceptable to call a customer what Noah called the fan?

If Noah had called the guy a phucking a-hole...instead of a gay slur... he wouldn't be facing scrutiny and an anticipated fine?

[B]Stern isn't going to make money? So, it's healthy for any business to show that it tolerates such behavior?[/B][/QUOTE]

What?

I made two points, but I'll address them with numbered bullet points so it can be easier for you to understand.

1. How can you say for sure the fan did not first heckle Noah at all? You attempted to compare Noah's slur towards a fan at a basketball game with 'someone working' and saying the same thing towards the customer. I pointed out that first of all you don't know the entire story behind what happened prior to Noah's insult, but most likely the fan heckled Noah. I also added that basketball is not comparable to most service sector jobs, because it's very common in the NBA to have fans in opposing arenas giving you crap, talking trash about your personal life, possibly bringing your family. How often does this happen at an average service sector job?


2. The NBA doesn't care so much about the insult as it does about it's own reputation. The fact that Noah said it on camera threatens the NBA's reputation. That's why the NBA may fine Noah. Not because the 'league' is becoming softer, it's because American values have shifted.



And I'm not sure what your bold is supposed to mean, that's pretty much the point I was making in my original post. :confusedshrug:

[QUOTE=JMT]Again, you want to blame the camera instead of the professional who allowed himself to get caught up in an altercation. Failure to accept responsibility for ones actions is pretty much the definition of immaturity.

Let's take this a different direction.

[B]Should the cameras show the benches at all? Were the shots of Westbrook post-benching the other night fair game? Durant putting his head in his hands when they were getting blitzed in the 3rd? Jackson pokming Gasol in the chest in Game 4 vs Mavs? [/B]
Interested in your opinion on those.[/QUOTE]
all these things have to be shown on TV, that is what makes the games entertaining. and the cursing is all part of the game

[QUOTE=InfiniteBaskets]What?

I made two points, but I'll address them with numbered bullet points so it can be easier for you to understand.

1. [B]How can you say for sure the fan did not first heckle Noah at all?[/B] You attempted to compare Noah's slur towards a fan at a basketball game with 'someone working' and saying the same thing towards the customer. I pointed out that first of all you don't know the entire story behind what happened prior to Noah's insult, but most likely the fan heckled Noah. I also added that basketball is not comparable to most service sector jobs, because it's very common in the NBA to have fans in opposing arenas giving you crap, talking trash about your personal life, possibly bringing your family. How often does this happen at an average service sector job?


2. The NBA doesn't care so much about the insult as it does about it's own reputation. The fact that Noah said it on camera threatens the NBA's reputation. That's why the NBA may fine Noah. Not because the 'league' is becoming softer, it's because American values have shifted.



And I'm not sure what your bold is supposed to mean, that's pretty much the point I was making in my original post. :confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]

1. Never said anything remotely like that. I'm amazed at how people seem to think that it's on others to show the fan [B]didn't[/B] do something wrong, as opposed to seeing clearly that Noah [B]did[/B] do something wrong. Boggles the mind.

Using the workforce scenario, ok, we'll agree the NBA is different. Players are heckled as a matter of course. Part of their obscene compensation is based on their ability to perform under those circumstances. Lots of guys can hit 100% of FT in their driveway; doing it in a hostile arena is a different thing. So heckling should come as no surprise to Noah, and he's expected to handle it better than that.

Don't know what you do for a living, but I've never been in a business where it would be considered ok to call a customer a slur of any kind based on words they might say to me. There are standards of acceptable conduct in all aspects of life, and they're not the same for every situation. Certainly there are lines that should not be crossed. But it would be awfully difficult for me, as an employer, to condone such actions in a situation that was anything short of physically threatening to my employee. And this obviously wasn't.

2. And what business isn't charged with protecting its reputation? How is the NBA diffferent? Personally, I don't think that eliminating overt signs of prejudice is a bad thing in society or sports. Doesn't make me all touchy feely. Just can't see what constructive comes from that behavior.

He screwed up. Plain and simple. Actions = consequences. You can look for justification, underlying societal issues, etc. Doesn't change the simple fact that he knows its a part of his employment. He willingly accepted that employment. His employer has a code of conduct that just addressed this very language a few weeks ago. He screwed up.

Doesn't make him a horrible person. Just a soon-to-be poorer one, and rightfully so.

[QUOTE=tomtucker]all these things have to be shown on TV, that is what makes the games entertaining. and [B]the cursing is all part of the game[/B][/QUOTE]

Not specifically directed at a fan.

if the "gay community" isnt happy with nba players using anti gay slurs maybe they shouldnt watch basketball? Let's be honnest here, we all know athletes are full of testosterone and even on some steroids all year long. Of course they despise ****. What were **** thinking?


They re lobbying for their agenda and it's getting really annoying.

[QUOTE=JMT]Not specifically directed at a fan.[/QUOTE]
no, that is not good.....still, i want to see the players faces on the bench, I hope they (espn, tnt ) don

lol the funny thing is that ISHers say ****** all the time, yet no one was fined.

[QUOTE=JMT]1. Never said anything remotely like that. I'm amazed at how people seem to think that it's on others to show the fan didn't do something wrong, as opposed to seeing clearly that Noah did do something wrong. Boggles the mind. [/QUOTE]

And I never accused you of saying anything remotely like that. I'm just saying, have you considered it? Do you think it's likely that there was heckling going on? Because I do.

Throughout this entire thread I haven't said anything remotely close to the lines of "Noah didn't do anything wrong". So I'm not sure who's putting words in who's mouth here :confusedshrug: But all I said was Noah most likely was reacting to something. And if you're going to ask me, then yes, I do think it was wrong of Noah to say it. But that had little to do with the point I was trying to make. (I'm a Heat fan, in fact I'd rather Noah be suspended for the rest of the series for his "appalling behavior").

[QUOTE]Using the workforce scenario, ok, we'll agree the NBA is different. Players are heckled as a matter of course. Part of their obscene compensation is based on their ability to perform under those circumstances. Lots of guys can hit 100% of FT in their driveway; doing it in a hostile arena is a different thing. So heckling should come as no surprise to Noah, and he's expected to handle it better than that.

Don't know what you do for a living, but I've never been in a business where it would be considered ok to call a customer a slur of any kind based on words they might say to me. There are standards of acceptable conduct in all aspects of life, and they're not the same for every situation. Certainly there are lines that should not be crossed. But it would be awfully difficult for me, as an employer, to condone such actions in a situation that was anything short of physically threatening to my employee. And this obviously wasn't. [/QUOTE]

Once again, I'm not saying what Noah did was justified regardless of any heckling, my first point was only to say that your comparison wasn't fair because trash talking happens all the time in basketball. Yes, I believe that if a fan has a right to trash talk to players, I believe players should be given some leeway to talk about, if they so choose to. Not saying a gay slur is acceptable, but I bet in your place of employment, the employees' level of emotion is nowhere close to what an NBA player feels during the heat of a physical conference finals.

So in short, yes a fine is justifiable, but trash talking has ALWAYS been a part of the game, and it's not going to change just because it's being played on a professional level where salary is involved. You get a player heated, he's going to react at times.


[QUOTE]2. And what business isn't charged with protecting its reputation? How is the NBA diffferent? Personally, I don't think that eliminating overt signs of prejudice is a bad thing in society or sports. Doesn't make me all touchy feely. Just can't see what constructive comes from that behavior. [/QUOTE]

I agree, there's nothing wrong with the NBA fining Noah and saying "We really don't accept this kind of behavior from our players and is in no reflection how we feel as an organization", but it's just BS translation for "Please don't think badly of us and stop buying tix, just keep the $$$s rolling. Oh and btw, it's a damn shame the camera caught Noah saying this on camera, otherwise we really wouldn't give a damn".

[QUOTE]He screwed up. Plain and simple. Actions = consequences. You can look for justification, underlying societal issues, etc. Doesn't change the simple fact that he knows its a part of his employment. He willingly accepted that employment. His employer has a code of conduct that just addressed this very language a few weeks ago. He screwed up.[/QUOTE]

Yeah yeah he screwed up, but the NBA WOULDN'T CARE about the insensitivity of his remarks if it's own reputation were not involved.

I think you're mistaking my position in this argument here. I'm not saying Noah dosen't deserve to get fined. I'm saying the NBA is not fining Noah because he messed up by calling someone a slur. The NBA is fining Noah because he messed up by [B]calling someone a slur on national television[/B].
It's similar to when investors/c-suite execs commit a few shady acts. Their respective companies might not care, until it actually gets exposed and the companies' actual reputation becomes threatened. Would you not agree that's the bigger underlying theme here?? It's NOT about defending gay peoples' interests.

[QUOTE]Doesn't make him a horrible person. Just a soon-to-be poorer one, and rightfully so.[/QUOTE] It makes him a stupid person for getting caught on camera, but guess what? NBA players are still gonna go around calling each other homosexual deragotory names, they'll just be a little more aware of where the camera is pointing.

[QUOTE=Kiddlovesnets]lol the funny thing is that ISHers say ****** all the time, yet no one was fined.[/QUOTE]

TennesseeFan got banned for posting ****** too much.

[QUOTE=InfiniteBaskets]NBA players are still gonna go around calling each other homosexual deragotory names, they'll just be a little more aware of where the camera is pointing.[/QUOTE]

Indeed, because the moment a particular camera captures a potential 'situation', bet your last dollar that particular camera will be zoomed up that player's ass to see what can make for tomorrow's headlines. I'd still like an answer to what I posed earlier: aside from the self-serving sensationalistic reasons, what tangible purpose is served training a camera specifically on a player caught in a heat of the moment situation? To what end? For what purpose? The media's interest is only as far as what will give them the best ratings of paper-selling headline.