Defense vs. Offense

[QUOTE=97 bulls]Lol sure you would. That team would beat the lakers 4-1. They can score, they're far and away the better defensive team and the much better reebounding team. Which prohibits the lakers fast break. As well as being big and super athletic.

But I wouldn't expect anything less from you.[/QUOTE]

Ummm, the 80s Lakers weren't a bad defensive team. They are about as good defensively as that team is offensively. Regardless of how great defensively those guys are, no one is shutting down Magic, Worthy, Scott, and Kareem for that many games and/or simultaneously. On the other hand, that defensive team would have many scoring droughts since they don't have anyone that can create their own shot consistently. That would be the main issue. I don't think there has ever been a championship team that has had as big of a weakness in that aspect as this team would and that clearly would be a problem against one of the greatest teams ever.

And dude grow up. Don't paint me with that brush. Its not ridiculous at all to think an offensively deficient team like that would lose to one of the greatest teams ever. The Bad Boy Pistons were one of the greatest defenses ever, and much better then that team offensively and they lost to them in 7.

Amare Stoudemire vs. Tyson Chandler
Dirk Nowitzki vs. Shawn Marion
Charles Barkley vs. Charles Oakley
Carmelo Anthony vs. Shane Battier
Steve Nash vs. Eric Snow
Allen Iverson vs. Doug Christie

All offense, minimal defense vs. All defense, minimal offense. Thats basically what this question is asking and your a fool if you're taking the defensive guy. There might be a few exceptions in certain cases like Mutombo or Big Ben in their primes, but thats about it.

It depends on the extent of how good each player is at their role. Defensive players seem to be more valuable at lower levels but less valuable at higher ones when being compared to offensive players.

For example, if you take a guy like Tony Allen or Luol Deng and compare them to a guy like Kevin Martin or Monta Ellis, I'll take the defensive players. But if you compare Ben Wallace to Dirk, it's obvious Dirk is a better center piece. Offensive players basically make for better superstars.

[QUOTE=guy]Ummm, the 80s Lakers weren't a bad defensive team. They are about as good defensively as that team is offensively.
[B]This was my point. A team that's on par with that laker team, but their pollar opposite.[/B]

Regardless of how great defensively those guys are, no one is shutting down Magic, Worthy, Scott, and Kareem for that many games and/or simultaneously.
[B]But the 80s lakers had lost seires before. Even to under 500 teams no less.[/B]


On the other hand, that defensive team would have many scoring droughts since they don't have anyone that can create their own shot consistently. That would be the main issue. I don't think there has ever been a championship team that has had as big of a weakness in that aspect as this team would and that clearly would be a problem against one of the greatest teams ever.
[B]The San Antonio Spurs were a team that had scoring droughts and stiill managed to win with their defense. The same goes for the 04 pistons. And the 08 celtics.[/B]


And dude grow up. Don't paint me with that brush. Its not ridiculous at all to think an offensively deficient team like that would lose to one of the greatest teams ever. The Bad Boy Pistons were one of the greatest defenses ever, and much better then that team offensively and they lost to them in 7.[/QUOTE]
And its not rediculous to think that that team could win with a cripling defense. And I'm not saying they'd beat the showtime lakers 10-10 times. But come on. You said the lakers would beat them pretty handledly. That I just disagree with. There's not a player on the lakers that you could say would be able to take their man offensively one on one. They'd get killed on the boards. JUST KILLED. They have 3 guys to throw on magic in pippen, marion, and bowen. Where's the lakers advantage?

And this wasn't a teeam constructed to just beat the lakers or anything. It was a team I made up that could win multiple championships with scottie pippen as its best player which seems to be such a hot botton topic.

So with that, ill ask you Guy... could this team win multtiple championships in your opinion. And its just your opinion. Don't try to get political and weasel your way out of it by saying well never know. Would this team be good enough to win a championship?

[QUOTE=97 bulls]Like I answered the other poster. I was including butler being healthy. Without dirk and Butler, they're at best a 500 team. I've now said this at least three times. Id also like to add that 9 games is too small a sample size to really get an indication of what the mavs would do without dirk.

I believe dwight howard was used. Jason kidd, gary payton, But if you want to use pippen, fine. How about tim duncan? He wasn't gonna drop 30 a night in his prime.
Kevin Garnett is another player. That's about 5 players right there.

But you seem stuck on pippen. So fine, let's use him. I realize your gripe with pippen was that he didn't score in the clutch. Even though I've stated instances where he did take over games. He did a better job or just as good a job as any other player that was in his situation. He just didn't have a team good enough to win a championship in 94 and 95.

Now let me ask you a question.... what do you think pippen would do with the best team in the league with him as the best player? Let's say he had 5 years with a core roster that included

Himself
Nick Young
Shawn Marion (prime)
Undonis Haslem (prime)
Dikembe Mutombo
Bruce Bowen
Taj Gibson

That's a defensive version of the 80s lakers. I don't see how a team could get 80 ppg vs a team like this. And pippen would be the best player on this team.[/QUOTE]

You are now rattling off Duncan and KG....those players were too good offensively to be included in your defensive category. They don't fit the hypothetical at all. Duncan is a top 8 player ever because not only was he great defensively, but he was great offensively....and was a great late game player actually.

I love Duncan and KG...I have them both ahead of Dirk all time...but again, look at what Dirk has done. Look at what Dirk did to KG's team in 02...where was KG's defense? Why didn't he slow down Dirk or do anything to stop the Mavs?

Where was Duncan in the 06 series? When Dirk just went off against the Spurs. How come the vaunted Spurs defense and Tim Duncan couldn't slow him down?

We don't have to use Pippen. I'm asking you....what defensive minded player was better than Barkley, Dirk, Magic, Bird.....you respond with Bill Russell. I agree. Anyone else? What players today that are mainly defensive oriented are better than guys like melo, amare, or bosh?

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]You are now rattling off Duncan and KG....those players were too good offensively to be included in your defensive category. They don't fit the hypothetical at all. Duncan is a top 8 player ever because not only was he great defensively, [U]but he was great offensively[/U]....and was a great late game player actually.

I love Duncan and KG...I have them both ahead of Dirk all time...but again, look at what Dirk has done. Look at what Dirk did to KG's team in 02...where was KG's defense? Why didn't he slow down Dirk or do anything to stop the Mavs?

[B]Where was Duncan in the 06 series?[/B] When Dirk just went off against the Spurs. How come the vaunted Spurs defense and Tim Duncan couldn't slow him down?

We don't have to use Pippen. I'm asking you....what defensive minded player was better than Barkley, Dirk, Magic, Bird.....you respond with Bill Russell. I agree. Anyone else? What players today that are mainly defensive oriented are better than guys like melo, amare, or bosh?[/QUOTE]
This one is harsh. I can not say Timmy slowed down Dirk but Timmy outplayed/outperformed Dirk also.

In that series;
Duncan 32.3 ppg/11.7 rpg/3.7 apg/2.6 bpg/1.0 spg/0.567 fg
Nowitzki 27.1 ppg/13.3 rpg/2.7 apg/0.4 bpg/1.4 spg/0.527 fg

If Manu Ginobili wouldn't make that idiotic foul, we were talking about Spurs' repeat instead of choke job/ref calls.

(Actually this series proves your claim, underlined part.)

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Where was Duncan in the 06 series? When Dirk just went off against the Spurs. How come the vaunted Spurs defense and Tim Duncan couldn't slow him down?[/QUOTE]

Where was Tim Duncan? :facepalm

You mean the guy who averaged [B]32.2[/B] points a game, playing with Plantar Fasciitis?

The guy who averaged about 5 more points per game than Dirk?

For the team that was down 3 game to 1... and they still battled back to take it to OVERTIME of the 7th game?

That series could have gone either way, and in fact the Spurs almost won it if it wasn't for Ginobili's dumb foul... Acting like the Mavs "dominated" the Spurs or something is totally revisionist.

What's funny is that was one of the best defensive teams the Mavs ever had - it was DIOP who played stellar D on Duncan in that game 7 - and it only goes along with the idea that defense is all important.

Reading your daily posts... I'm truly surprised you don't have Dirk over KG and Duncan, with how highly you think of him.

[QUOTE=97 bulls]His mavericks could've but they didn't. I'm not sure having chandler on the team would've been the difference. But he sure would've helped.[/QUOTE]

its because they were screwed by the refs. of course how can you win with that.

[QUOTE=SCdac]Where was Tim Duncan? :facepalm

You mean the guy who averaged [B]32.2[/B] points a game, playing with Plantar Fasciitis?

The guy who averaged about 5 more points per game than Dirk?

For the team that was down 3 game to 1... and they still battled back to take it to OVERTIME of the 7th game?

That series could have gone either way, and in fact the Spurs almost won it if it wasn't for Ginobili's dumb foul... Acting like the Mavs "dominated" the Spurs or something is totally revisionist.

What's funny is that was one of the best defensive teams the Mavs ever had - it was DIOP who played stellar D on Duncan in that game 7 - and it only goes along with the idea that defense is all important.

Reading your daily posts... I'm truly surprised you don't have Dirk over KG and Duncan, with how highly you think of him.[/QUOTE]

reading comprehension. defensively mate. where was duncan defensively. diop at times played good defense, but Duncan went off in game 7 just like Dirk did. didn't duncan have like 40/15/10 or something? Its hard to credit defense with a line like that.

[QUOTE=Odinn]This one is harsh. I can not say Timmy slowed down Dirk but Timmy outplayed/outperformed Dirk also.

In that series;
Duncan 32.3 ppg/11.7 rpg/3.7 apg/2.6 bpg/1.0 spg/0.567 fg
Nowitzki 27.1 ppg/13.3 rpg/2.7 apg/0.4 bpg/1.4 spg/0.527 fg

If Manu Ginobili wouldn't make that idiotic foul, we were talking about Spurs' repeat instead of choke job/ref calls.

(Actually this series proves your claim, underlined part.)[/QUOTE]

defensively. if you took away's duncan's great offense in a series like that and just left him with his all time great defense....the spurs lose in 5 games...maybe a sweep.

thats the point. duncan is without a doubt one of the highest impact defenders the nba has ever seen. and if he was just that great defensive player and like a mutombo offensively or something....he wouldn't even be as close to as good as he was.

which is individually offense just matters more in this hypothetical. a player that can be relied on to get 25 plus a night, have an offense run through them, and is also great in crunch time....just matters more 9 out of 10 times than the defensive player that can guard 4 positions.

with duncan? he had both...and that is why he's number 6 all time for me.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]You are now rattling off Duncan and KG....those players were too good offensively to be included in your defensive category. They don't fit the hypothetical at all. Duncan is a top 8 player ever because not only was he great defensively, but he was great offensively....and was a great late game player actually.

I love Duncan and KG...I have them both ahead of Dirk all time...but again, look at what Dirk has done. Look at what Dirk did to KG's team in 02...where was KG's defense? Why didn't he slow down Dirk or do anything to stop the Mavs?

Where was Duncan in the 06 series? When Dirk just went off against the Spurs. How come the vaunted Spurs defense and Tim Duncan couldn't slow him down?

We don't have to use Pippen. I'm asking you....what defensive minded player was better than Barkley, Dirk, Magic, Bird.....you respond with Bill Russell. I agree. Anyone else? What players today that are mainly defensive oriented are better than guys like melo, amare, or bosh?[/QUOTE]
Damn dmavs, you keep asking the same questions. And I keep answering them. Maybe you should ask me to list every player. I've rattled off some names. Kidd, payton, howard, pippen, duncan, and garnett to name a few. And no duncan and garnett are not great scorers. They're very good scorers. Bu theyre more known for versitily. I told you id would include rodman if his head was on straight. And you excluded bull russell. What about alonzo mourning?

And a couple off instances don't help your claim. Tony delk has scored 50 pts in a game. Does that mean he's a better scorer than duncan? Who I don't believe has ever dropped 50 in a game.

And what about that team I constructed? Do you think they could win a championship in todays league?

kg is a good offensive player and good defensively yet its even debatable whos better between him and dirk.

defense vs offense is like the owners and players debate. Fans are more likely to side with the little guy which in this case are the players or the defensive players. But at the end of the day, the more important players are the players which are rarer. Billionaire owners are harder to find than the players and offensive players are harder to find than defensive players.

The first thing a player learns when playing this game is defense and offense is second meaning offense is advance learning compared to defense. Thats why most offensive players never cared aboud defense.

[QUOTE=97 bulls]Damn dmavs, you keep asking the same questions. And I keep answering them. Maybe you should ask me to list every player. I've rattled off some names. Kidd, payton, howard, pippen, duncan, and garnett to name a few. And no duncan and garnett are not great scorers. They're very good scorers. Bu theyre more known for versitily. I told you id would include rodman if his head was on straight. And you excluded bull russell. What about alonzo mourning?

And a couple off instances don't help your claim. Tony delk has scored 50 pts in a game. Does that mean he's a better scorer than duncan? Who I don't believe has ever dropped 50 in a game.

And what about that team I constructed? Do you think they could win a championship in todays league?[/QUOTE]

you have to list the players you think they are better than.

Take mourning. Was he better than Barkley or Dirk?
Payton. Was he better than Thomas or Nash?
Rodman. Was he better than Barkley or Dirk?
Pippen. Was he better than Magic or Bird?

Stuff like that.

And the Tony Delk thing makes no sense. Has nothing to do with this hypothetical at all. This is about a guy that is reliable and consistent offensively and great at the end of games vs a more defensive player. The only guy that I think this works consistently for is Bill Russell.

[QUOTE=knicksman]kg is a good offensive player and good defensively yet its even debatable whos better between him and dirk.

defense vs offense is like the owners and players debate. Fans are more likely to side with the little guy which in this case are the players or the defensive players. But at the end of the day, the more important players are the players which are rarer. Billionaire owners are harder to find than the players and offensive players are harder to find than defensive players.

The first thing a player learns when playing this game is defense and offense is second meaning offense is advance learning compared to defense. Thats why most offensive players never cared aboud defense.[/QUOTE]

Another good point. KG vs Dirk. Debatable. I lean towards KG, but think about that. You have an all time great defender and rebounder...combined with a great a 20 plus per game scorer and a great passer.

And its debatable as to which player you'd rather have as your number 1 guy to build a team around. Similar to the Dwight Howard example.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]reading comprehension. defensively mate. where was duncan defensively.[/QUOTE]

Well, he didn't guard Dirk that much... and Dirk didn't guard Duncan that much... by design of both coaches, undoubtedly.

But are you seriously acting like Duncan didn't put his mark on the series defensively... because they didn't win? or Because Dirk played great? :facepalm

You're more obtuse than I thought.

Duncan averaged over 2.5 blocks in that series and was basically playing center because the Spurs unexpectedly, and controversially amongst SA fans, went small in that series. His "lack of defense" is hardly the reason the Spurs lost.

This is like asking, why didn't Dirk's all-time great offense get the Mavs out of the first round or second round in... 01, 02, 04, 05, 07, 08, 09, and 2010?

Where was Dirk offensively in those seasons?