Magic Johnson vs Larry Bird. Year-by-Year.

[QUOTE=Champ]jlauber:

Though I respect all the data and info you continually come up with, I must say that list of Bird's playoff exploits you posted comes across as cherry-picked, and more than a bit biased. There's simply too much of his playoff success that is ignored or passed over for the sake of argument, while other excerpts strike me as being flat-out wrong.

For starters, I'll point to '81 Finals, where your post stated that Bird played poorly, which simply isn't accurate. Yes, he did shoot poorly, but he also did so many other things during that series to help his team win, while coming through at key moments -- especially down the stretch -- yet there's no mention of this. Why?

You could even argue that he should've been awarded Finals MVP that year.[/QUOTE]

Well, it addresses these myths that somehow Bird was more "clutch" than Magic. Bird had HOF-laden teams that lost with HCA SEVEN times. And in some of those series, he played poorly.

Magic was called "Tragic" in a series in which he put up 18.1 ppg, 7.7 rpg, 13.6 apg, and shot .560...based on a couple of plays and missed FTs.

And I understand Bird's '81 Finals, but it galls me that at least some of the "Bird-lovers" on this site, praise Birdfor his hustle and grit in that series, and then bash Chamberlain, who took far more putrid rosters to within an eye-lash of beating Russell's vaunted "Dynasty" on SEVERAL occassions (and did in fact beat him in one) dominating the games ALL OVER THE COURT. Chamberlain was defending entire teams, and being defended by entire teams, and playing 48 mpg, and yet he is labeled a "choker" by the "Simmonites." An unfair DOUBLE STANDARD.

[QUOTE=MiamiThrice]Great post dude.

Larry Bird was a great defender in comparison to that era. People dont want to give him respect because he is white. [/QUOTE]


FTFY

BTW, Bird was a GREAT post-season player. Much like Magic, he made his teammates better. Personally, I would have taken Magic, but I would have done quite well with Larry, too.

Defensive rating is like the worst way to evaluate individual defense.

Carlos Boozer had a better defensive rating than Dwight Howard did last season.

Are any of you seriously going to tell me Boozer is better defensively?

Including the post-season...

80 Magic
81 Bird
82 Magic
83 Magic
84 Bird
85 Magic
86 Bird
87 Magic
88 Magic
89 Magic
90 Magic
91 Magic

1980- Bird
1981- Bird
1982- Bird
1983- Bird
1984- Bird
1985- Bird
1986- Bird
1987- Magic
1988- Bird
1989- Magic
1990- Magic
1991- Magic

Magic and Bird really became debatable to me in '87, which was probably Magic's best year(though I'm not truly convinced he was better than he was in '90). Magic took his game to the next level that year, while Bird was still in his prime. I'm not convinced Magic actually was a better player than Bird in '87, but with the 65-17 record, a well-deserved MVP, a great finals series, a 24/6/12 season. He seems like the safer choice.

Magic improved a lot throughout his career. When he was young, he was a pretty limited half court player. He'd still be active running give and go plays with Kareem, getting offensive rebounds, finding Wilkes under the basket by threading the needle, and sometimes driving to the basket.

But '80-'83 Magic didn't have the outside shot or post game yet that would take his game to another level. Kareem was really their half court offense.

Magic started showing an outside shot around '84 or '85, and the post game in '87. Magic also didn't become the 1st option until his 8th season.

As much as these 2 are linked, a lot of their primes didn't overlap. Magic's prime was really from '87-'90. And Bird's was from '84-'88.

It is a good comparison comparing those 2 versions because Magic could control the game so much offensively when he became a great half court player. His post game was unstoppable so most teams didn't guard him 1 on 1, but he passed as well as anyone out of the post, so he'd just pick apart double teams. So the best strategy probably was to guard him 1 on 1 and get his. Phoenix did that in '90 when they upset the Lakers. Magic averaged 30, and ended the series with back to back 43 point games, but they lost both and lost in 5. Guarding Magic 1 on 1 most of the time with Dan Majerle seemed to prevent his teammates from going off. Granted, Hornacek exploiting Magic's defense was also a factor.

And the outside shot made a big difference, along with the fact that he started taking the ball to the basket more aggressively when he became the first option in '87.

[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]1980- Bird
1981- Bird
1982- Bird
1983- Bird
1984- Bird
1985- Bird
1986- Bird
1987- Magic
1988- Bird
1989- Magic
1990- Magic
1991- Magic

Magic and Bird really became debatable to me in '87, which was probably Magic's best year(though I'm not truly convinced he was better than he was in '90). Magic took his game to the next level that year, while Bird was still in his prime. I'm not convinced Magic actually was a better player than Bird in '87, but with the 65-17 record, a well-deserved MVP, a great finals series, a 24/6/12 season. He seems like the safer choice.

Magic improved a lot throughout his career. When he was young, he was a pretty limited half court player. He'd still be active running give and go plays with Kareem, getting offensive rebounds, finding Wilkes under the basket by threading the needle, and sometimes driving to the basket.

But '80-'83 Magic didn't have the outside shot or post game yet that would take his game to another level. Kareem was really their half court offense.

Magic started showing an outside shot around '84 or '85, and the post game in '87. Magic also didn't become the 1st option until his 8th season.

As much as these 2 are linked, a lot of their primes didn't overlap. Magic's prime was really from '87-'90. And Bird's was from '84-'88.

It is a good comparison comparing those 2 versions because Magic could control the game so much offensively when he became a great half court player. His post game was unstoppable so most teams didn't guard him 1 on 1, but he passed as well as anyone out of the post, so he'd just pick apart double teams. So the best strategy probably was to guard him 1 on 1 and get his. Phoenix did that in '90 when they upset the Lakers. Magic averaged 30, and ended the series with back to back 43 point games, but they lost both and lost in 5. Guarding Magic 1 on 1 most of the time with Dan Majerle seemed to prevent his teammates from going off. Granted, Hornacek exploiting Magic's defense was also a factor.

And the outside shot made a big difference, along with the fact that he started taking the ball to the basket more aggressively when he became the first option in '87.[/QUOTE]

You believe Bird was better than Magic in '88? I will say Bird was the better player during the regular season, but Magic was much more consistent in the postseason.

Bird has no argument over Magic in 85. NONE.:coleman:

[QUOTE=eliteballer]Bird has no argument over Magic in 85. NONE.:coleman:[/QUOTE]

:oldlol: More like Magic has no argument. Whether Magic was even the best player on his own team over a 38 year old Kareem is debatable.

Bird was widely considered the best player in the league in the mid 80's. Many were calling him the best of all time, this wasn't said about Magic.

Magic is lucky that Bird was injured in the '85 finals, of course, Kareem was the best player in that series anyway. Bird beat Magic's team...well, Kareem's team actually, in the '84 finals with a team that was considered by everyone to be less talented. And the Celtics had improved by '85, Kevin McHale in particular was approaching his prime.

It wasn't that close until '87.

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers]You believe Bird was better than Magic in '88? I will say Bird was the better player during the regular season, but Magic was much more consistent in the postseason.[/QUOTE]

Yes, Bird was still arguably the best player in the league, and would probably be my choice for MVP.

Bird's shot was really off in the Detroit series at first due to fatigue(from the 7 game Hawks series) and eventually it got into his head according to Larry himself because you can see him force a few uncharacteristic shots in the series, and he was also just missing shots he usually makes. Despite that, Boston had a chance to win that series(2 games went to OT), and Larry played very well in every other area. His rebounding and passing were phenomenal and his defense was very good, both individual vs Dantley and his team defense.

Larry led a Boston team without a bench to 57 games(would have probably been 59 had he not rested the final 2), He had gotten in much better shape and some were calling it his best season. He led Boston to a 10-3 record without McHale(who missed the first month), and they were 9-2 excluding Bird's 2 limited minute games, and in those 11 games, he averaged 32/11/7 on 51%.

30/9/6 on 53/41/92 shooting for the entire season is incredible. Especially since Bird wasn't a particularly ball-dominant player and played extremely well without the ball.

Magic was in his prime by '88, but it was only his 4th best season, imo, clearly behind '87, '90 and '89.

[QUOTE=eliteballer]Larry was not a better rebounder(Magic getting 8-10 from the PG spot is far more impressive than Bird getting 10-11 from forward) nor was he a better defender(Magic led the league in steals and was a better man defender).[/QUOTE]

Tough to compare their rebounding due to their positions, but look at the frontline Bird was getting 10-11 rpg with. 14 rpg for the entire '81 playoffs.

And in no way was Magic a better 1 on 1 defender. He'd get lit up by good shooters because he roamed a lot, and quicker players who were good off the dribble. In other words, he couldn't guard good scorers.

Bird wasn't a great man defender either, but average and better than Magic.

Bird's help defense was definitely superior though.

[QUOTE=get these NETS]I've never heard of sports fan who believes that Bird was a better player or had a better career than either KAJ or Jordan. I note that you're not even saying that..[/quote]

Having a better 'career' (however you define that) does not mean you are the better player. Horry might have had a better career Drexler; Shaq may have had a better than Hakeem, but it doesn't determine who is better than the other.

[quote]highest rated ncaa finals ever...think highest rated college basketball game EVER...as in EVER..

and the Sycamores weren't shit before Bird..haven't been shit since..

why do you think that game drew such high ratings?[/QUOTE]

Why did Lebron's games get so much coverage? Because he was black? No, because he was that much better than everyone else it was astounding.

[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]1980- Bird
1981- Bird
1982- Bird
1983- Bird
1984- Bird
1985- Bird
1986- Bird
1987- Magic
1988- Bird
1989- Magic
1990- Magic
1991- Magic

Magic and Bird really became debatable to me in '87, which was probably Magic's best year(though I'm not truly convinced he was better than he was in '90). Magic took his game to the next level that year, while Bird was still in his prime. I'm not convinced Magic actually was a better player than Bird in '87, but with the 65-17 record, a well-deserved MVP, a great finals series, a 24/6/12 season. He seems like the safer choice.

Magic improved a lot throughout his career. When he was young, he was a pretty limited half court player. He'd still be active running give and go plays with Kareem, getting offensive rebounds, finding Wilkes under the basket by threading the needle, and sometimes driving to the basket.

But '80-'83 Magic didn't have the outside shot or post game yet that would take his game to another level. Kareem was really their half court offense.

Magic started showing an outside shot around '84 or '85, and the post game in '87. Magic also didn't become the 1st option until his 8th season.

As much as these 2 are linked, a lot of their primes didn't overlap. Magic's prime was really from '87-'90. And Bird's was from '84-'88.

It is a good comparison comparing those 2 versions because Magic could control the game so much offensively when he became a great half court player. His post game was unstoppable so most teams didn't guard him 1 on 1, but he passed as well as anyone out of the post, so he'd just pick apart double teams. So the best strategy probably was to guard him 1 on 1 and get his. Phoenix did that in '90 when they upset the Lakers. Magic averaged 30, and ended the series with back to back 43 point games, but they lost both and lost in 5. Guarding Magic 1 on 1 most of the time with Dan Majerle seemed to prevent his teammates from going off. Granted, Hornacek exploiting Magic's defense was also a factor.

And the outside shot made a big difference, along with the fact that he started taking the ball to the basket more aggressively when he became the first option in '87.[/QUOTE]
The list you made seems like a regular season nd not including everythin. How is Bird better then Magic in 82 and 88?

[QUOTE]oldlol: More like Magic has no argument. Whether Magic was even the best player on his own team over a 38 year old Kareem is debatable.

Bird was widely considered the best player in the league in the mid 80's. Many were calling him the best of all time, this wasn't said about Magic.

Magic is lucky that Bird was injured in the '85 finals, of course, Kareem was the best player in that series anyway. Bird beat Magic's team...well, Kareem's team actually, in the '84 finals with a team that was considered by everyone to be less talented. And the Celtics had improved by '85, Kevin McHale in particular was approaching his prime.

It wasn't that close until '87.[/QUOTE]

Everything in 85 is even until you look at the Finals where Magic completely outplayed him. Everyone is banged up by that point, using a thumb injury of all things as if its a knee, ankle, or wrist issue is completely laughble.


[QUOTE]Tough to compare their rebounding due to their positions, but look at the frontline Bird was getting 10-11 rpg with. 14 rpg for the entire '81 playoffs.

And in no way was Magic a better 1 on 1 defender. He'd get lit up by good shooters because he roamed a lot, and quicker players who were good off the dribble. In other words, he couldn't guard good scorers.

Bird wasn't a great man defender either, but average and better than Magic.

Bird's help defense was definitely superior though.[/QUOTE]

Magic could get burned by smaller players, but so would Bird-even worse I might add. Difference is Magic was far better at guarding players at or near his own size.

[QUOTE]
Magic improved a lot throughout his career. When he was young, he was a pretty limited half court player.[/QUOTE]

:oldlol: Limited. [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYNDWaEmqto[/url]

I have to add Magic has a great argument in 82 and 83 as he was FAR SUPERIOR in the playoffs.

[QUOTE=jlauber]Including the post-season...

80 Magic
81 Bird
82 Magic
83 Magic
84 Bird
85 Magic
86 Bird
87 Magic
88 Magic
89 Magic
90 Magic
91 Magic[/QUOTE]

Your bias against Bird takes away from your credibility. It makes me question all the you have written about Wilt, which I have found interesting.

[QUOTE=Kobe 4 The Win]That's funny because the years that Magic is given the edge just happen to coincide with the years he was asked to score more and take on more responsability because Kareem was getting super old. Hmmmmmm.[/QUOTE]

What a coincidence! Bird was having back problems and was a shell of his former self during those years. Hmmmmm.


MAYBE give 1987 to Bird, because he was still going strong for some of the year and he SHOULD have won that finals, but otherwise I completely agree.

[QUOTE=jlauber]Well, it addresses these myths that somehow Bird was more "clutch" than Magic. Bird had HOF-laden teams that lost with HCA SEVEN times. And in some of those series, he played poorly.

Magic was called "Tragic" in a series in which he put up 18.1 ppg, 7.7 rpg, 13.6 apg, and shot .560...based on a couple of plays and missed FTs.

And I understand Bird's '81 Finals, but it galls me that at least some of the "Bird-lovers" on this site, praise Birdfor his hustle and grit in that series, and then bash Chamberlain, who took far more putrid rosters to within an eye-lash of beating Russell's vaunted "Dynasty" on SEVERAL occassions (and did in fact beat him in one) dominating the games ALL OVER THE COURT. Chamberlain was defending entire teams, and being defended by entire teams, and playing 48 mpg, and yet he is labeled a "choker" by the "Simmonites." An unfair DOUBLE STANDARD.[/QUOTE]
jlauber, I understand your point of view on this. I hope you know from our previous post that I to am a big Wilt fan and believe him to be one of if not the Greatest player ever.

That being said, you don't make wilts light burn any brighter by trying to blow out Birds. Just as a lot of people cherry pick things about Wilt, you do the same thing to Bird. I think Wilt's greatness stands on it's own. I am as big a Bird fan as their is, but even I think if your building a team, it always starts with the Center. People can say they would take Jordan, Bird and Magic all they want. Give me a great center. I would take Wilt myself but I can understand people who would go with Russell or KAJ. I don't understand people who would take a forward, point guard or a shooting guard.

Have a great day.