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[QUOTE=plowking]Clearly you're intent on pushing the idea that Tyson was the same fighter when he fought Lewis and Holyfield as he was when he first won the heavyweight title. But whatever, I can see past that and realize its not so.
The funny thing is, I'm agreeing with you on almost everything. I don't get what your debate is? I agree that Holyfield and Lewis should be considered better fighers, that he is barely the 3rd best heavyweight of his time, that he is an underachiever, and that he is overrated.
I simply think he wasn't great early on just because he fought tomato cans (which is soo overstated for Tyson), but because he was a fantastic fighter early on.[/QUOTE]
I'm not trying to argue with you, man. I was just giving my natural reaction to that particular statement.
Tyson was a good defensive fighter, especially considering his swarming, aggressive style. I'll also say that the heavyweights, generally speaking, do not have the boxing acumen of the smaller guys, so a HW fighter doesn't quite have the competition for the "best defensive fighter ever" as, say, a lightweight or welterweight.
I just wouldn't put Tyson amongst the very best of the best and I'm talking about early Tyson as well as middle and late career Tyson. His ducking, bobbing head movement worked very well in conjunction with his offensive skillset. His defensive style was very much in the mold of a Joe Frazier and both guys, because of their combination of good head movement and power made a lot of guys they were facing afraid to let their hands go (I definitely can't blame them :oldlol: ). He was also a good (underrated) counter-puncher.
But, I can't put him on the level with guys who fought in a more classic boxer style, stayed behind a jab and weren't looking to knock guys out with every punch. It's almost impossible to fight in that kind of a style and remain one of the best defensive fighters ever. Because he was always looking to get inside and land those hard punches, Mike was susceptible to a good jab or little well timed combinations and then getting out of there or tying up. Mike was also caught many times over his career with well timed uppercuts because he tended to walk in winging punches with his head tucked into his chest. Even before Douglas came along, guys like Tucker, Tillis and Mitch Green had some success with those kinds of strategies and those guys weren't exactly great offensive fighters.
It's funny, because the gif posted above is from his fight with Tillis who actually did have some success keeping Mike at bay. That was probably Tyson's closest fight up until the Douglas debacle. It's worth watching the whole thing...
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVGyjvulVcs[/url]
It's an interesting fight and one you won't see on "Tyson's Greatest Knockouts," because Tillis hung in there with him throughout. And, this was a young Tyson, just his 20th fight. Tillis sort of set the blueprint which Douglas later used so well.
Ask most historians and Joe Johnson is generally considered the greatest heavyweight defensive fighter ever. He basically brought the lightweight style to the heavyweight division, the first guy to do that. Gene Tunney was similarly ahead of his time.
But, even if you look at guys who weren't great fighters but became champions almost solely because of their defense like a Chris Byrd. If Tyson had the defense of a Chris Byrd with Mike's power and accuracy, he [I]WOULDN'T [/I]be the most overrated fighter ever because I don't think anyone would be able to beat him. But, that is pretty much the only thing Byrd did better than Tyson, which is why Tyson was a better fighter.
Now, if you wanted to say Tyson was one of the best defensive fighters ever who fought in that aggressive, swarming style, I could get on board with that. It's just a matter of semantics I guess.
[QUOTE=RedBlackAttack]
Now, if you wanted to say Tyson was one of the best defensive fighters ever who fought in that aggressive, swarming style, I could get on board with that. It's just a matter of semantics I guess.[/QUOTE]
More in the line of what I was trying to say.
[QUOTE=plowking]More in the line of what I was trying to say.[/QUOTE]
Fair enough. Check out the Tillis fight when you get a chance. I'm re-watching it now. Very interesting fight.
i guess anderson silva learned a lot from this guy.
[img]http://img.izismile.com/img/img6/20131212/1000/daily_gifdump_517_17.gif[/img]
and apparently silva really is going to fight roy jones assuming anderson gets his belt back.
The Tyson hate is strong
:roll:
not like he didn't bring it on himself at the time. he was a small step from being a psychopath.
amazing that he's actually a pretty smart, thoughtful, humble guy... just took him a million miles to get there because of where he started out. he doesn't get enough credit for it IMO.
[QUOTE=KyleKong]Tyson is just a smaller version of George Foreman.
I'd take Ali by TKO in round 10.[/QUOTE]
Stop prentending you know about boxing
[QUOTE=gigantes]i guess anderson silva learned a lot from this guy.
[img]http://img.izismile.com/img/img6/20131212/1000/daily_gifdump_517_17.gif[/img]
and apparently silva really is going to fight roy jones assuming anderson gets his belt back.[/QUOTE]
wow thats amazing, what fight is this?
prime tyson.
[QUOTE=OhNoTimNoSho]wow thats amazing, what fight is this?[/QUOTE]
i'm thinking early - mid 70's?
i thought it might have been ken norton at first, but that guy is too small to be him IMO. any boxing fans know?
Ali beat Liston and Frazier. Two boxers comparable to Mike Tyson. Not to mention Ken Norton, George Foreman, Archie Moore. Basically to act like Tyson power is unseen vs Ali is funny. Ali faced hard hitters and withstood those punches.
Ali wins this match because he could go the distance. Tyson? Not so much. If he couldnt KO Ali early in the fight then as it wore on Tyson would get wreckless, careless in the ring. Frustrated and severely anxious.
Tyson has good traits about him as a boxer over Ali. But Ali style would have frustrated Tyson in this match. The fact Ali has a much better chin is another plus. And like I said, Ali went the distance vs many notable boxers and pulled out wins. Tyson? Not so much.
Ali wins. :banana:
[QUOTE=gigantes]i guess anderson silva learned a lot from this guy.
[img]http://img.izismile.com/img/img6/20131212/1000/daily_gifdump_517_17.gif[/img][/QUOTE]
:roll:
Ali :bowdown:
[QUOTE=gigantes]not like he didn't bring it on himself at the time. he was a small step from being a psychopath.
amazing that he's actually a pretty smart, thoughtful, humble guy... just took him a million miles to get there because of where he started out. he doesn't get enough credit for it IMO.[/QUOTE]
I understand that but to go as far as discrediting his ring accomplishments?
:facepalm
Some random scrub in this thread called him an Andre Berto level fighter
[QUOTE=OhNoTimNoSho]wow thats amazing, what fight is this?[/QUOTE]
It was against Michael Dokes.
I think it was a charity match or something since I think it only went 3 or 4 rounds. Ali was really out of shape in the fight, you can probably even see it just from the gif.
[QUOTE=kNicKz]I understand that but to go as far as discrediting his ring accomplishments?
:facepalm
Some random scrub in this thread called him an Andre Berto level fighter[/QUOTE]
well i guess that's what random scrubs tend to do, huh? :D
i think the debates RBA and others had about his ring accomplishments pretty much cover it at this point.