Explain to me why Rose didn't deserve the 2011 MVP

[QUOTE=NumberSix]
There's no possible argument that "Rose outplayed LeBron". It's a ridiculous statement with no basis in fact.[/QUOTE]

Sure there is.


Before Lebron came to Miami, they were the 6th best defensive team in the league, under spo, and had a defensive rating, of 104.

After they added James they only improved to the 5th best defense in the league and went from 104... to 103.5.

A .5 difference in defensive rating and one spot up in rank. And thats with Bosh coming over too, who was a huge upgrade from their previous big men.


Offensively, James is more efficient, yes.. but he wasnt asked to carry as much offensive burden as Rose was. He had the best perimeter slasher/playmaker in the league and a perrenial allstar 20/10 big man on his side. Rose had no one to relieve offensive pressure but took it opun himself to carry the load offensively in the regular season.

The points/assists part of it are almost identical. Lebron scores a bit more while Rose dishes more dimes(and to vastly inferior teammates).


The biggest knock on Lebrons offense is this...

He went 2-12 on game winning shots and passed up a whole bunch more for fear of taking them. The pressure got to him in that first year dealing with all the criticism from the decision and he was scared shitless, missing everything in the clutch.

Hard games he posted ridiculous statlines throughout, were thrown away in the waning minutes of the game with his erratic, nervous play. That resulted directly in a whole handful of losses. What do the stats matter when youre throwing games away after accumulating them?


Meanwhile, per 82games.com, Rose was the clutchest player in the league in 2011 and was what 4-4 on GWs? He was single handedly winning the Bulls games where there defense was keeping the game 65-65 but the team offense was at a halt.

Chris Paul sets teammates up and goes on an occasional scoring binge.. but he doesnt get the bulls by miami. There was no one for him to pass to.:oldlol:


Interesting statistic.. the sortable clutch stats show how many of your 4th quarter buckets are assisted or not. Here are a few superstars.,

Durant 57%
Dirk 39%
Kobe 27%
Lebron 23%



Rose 11%:roll:


He was literally carrying the team in fourth quarters completely by himself. Thats hard to replace. And CERTAINLY not something 2011 Lebron could do lol.. we have first hand evidence of the opposite.

Easier to replace Lebrons 4 extra rebounds most of which result from miamis gang defensive rebounding which another player could snatch up, or his efficiency which means nothing if hes going to throw the game away in the end anyways.

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]
So when Isiah gets credit for leading title teams as the 7th best defender on a defensive team its fine. A defensive team with the DPOY, 2 guys who led the league in rebounding, 2 all stars who are neither of those first 2 and a guy called the Microwave.
[/QUOTE]

A big part of this is that these data sets and the understanding we have on the effectiveness players have on the game are exploding. We didn't used to have this level of information at our finger tips. So to say "so it was ok 20+ years ago it should be fine now" is disingenuous. And Dumars won as many FMVP as Isiah did.

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]
Or we hating on Isiah too?
[/QUOTE]

How old do you think I am?

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]
When Rose wins with less help....he shouldnt get that credit.
[/QUOTE]

You keep saying this but the data is complete disagreement with you.

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]
Player perhaps. One who took his otherwordly talent and had the worst season he had in years on a team with more help than hed ever had. Oscar robertson isnt Wilt or Russell. Bob Mcadoo isnt Kareem. They have down years or somehow fail to shine as bright as usual they dont get the MVP off their names.
[/QUOTE]

With Miller out essentially the entire year and with UD out as well the team had three players that weren't league min guys on the team. AND they had to completely change their games. And statistically it wasn't a bad year at all. He led the league in PER while Rose was 9th.

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]
People really have to get off the media. Rose, Lebron, Kobe, Wade, Nash, Dirk, Paul, KG, and everyone else great is a media darling. More so when they win 60+ games in spectacular fashion.
[/QUOTE]

If you are suggesting that in 10-11 LeBron was a media darling you are delusional beyong all measure.

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]
When Nash won there were head scratchers all around.

Nash gets it for a turnaround while shaq turns another team around. Dirk doesnt win...when he takes less talent than Nash had to what...59 wins? Improving his team...which Nash just left.

06?

Less.

2011 it was clear Rose would win. It isnt media love either. People act like the media screws someone and awards an MVP out of love yearly. Idiots claim it about Lebron.

Lebron won when he won because he won a hell of a lot of games and wasnt a letdown. Not media love.

Rose won because he won a hell of a lot of games and nobody saw it coming. Not media love.

Players, coaches, or fans would have voted Lebron as the winner of all 4 of his and Rose in 2011 too.

It was just...a usual MVP decision. And not a very hard one. 113 out of 121?

I dont think history will be that mad.

No 69 win Jordan getting snubbed here.

Lebron or Dwight wins it its one of the weakest MVPs in history anyway.[/QUOTE]

Nash was a far better ofensive player in both of his MVP seasons than DRose was last year.

And history already IS that mad.

[QUOTE=tpols]Before Lebron came to Miami, they were the 6th best defensive team in the league, under spo, and had a defensive rating, of 104.

After they added James they only improved to the 5th best defense in the league and went from 104... to 103.5.

A .5 difference in defensive rating and one spot up in rank. And thats with Bosh coming over too, who was a huge upgrade from their previous big men.

[/QUOTE]

So I stopped here.

How many players from 09-10 wer econtributors on the 10-11 team? The answer is 1. One player from the 09-10 team went on to play 1600 min (less than 19/gm). AND you are using raw def, rather than pace adjusted. And... well I'm just not going to argue with people whose arguments are this weak.

[QUOTE=HurricaneKid]So I stopped here.

How many players from 09-10 wer econtributors on the 10-11 team? The answer is 1. One player from the 09-10 team went on to play 1600 min (less than 19/gm). AND you are using raw def, rather than pace adjusted. And... well I'm just not going to argue with people whose arguments are this weak.[/QUOTE]
lol no one cares where you stopped or what you say. Youre an obvious stat nerd who gets caught up in solely using advanced measures to pass judgement as if basketball was a science experiment

I couldnt give less of a fvck

[QUOTE=tpols]Sure there is.


Before Lebron came to Miami, they were the 6th best defensive team in the league, under spo, and had a defensive rating, of 104.

After they added James they only improved to the 5th best defense in the league and went from 104... to 103.5.

A .5 difference in defensive rating and one spot up in rank. And thats with Bosh coming over too, who was a huge upgrade from their previous big men.


Offensively, James is more efficient, yes.. but he wasnt asked to carry as much offensive burden as Rose was. He had the best perimeter slasher/playmaker in the league and a perrenial allstar 20/10 big man on his side. Rose had no one to relieve offensive pressure but took it opun himself to carry the load offensively in the regular season.

The points/assists part of it are almost identical. Lebron scores a bit more while Rose dishes more dimes(and to vastly inferior teammates).


The biggest knock on Lebrons offense is this...

He went 2-12 on game winning shots and passed up a whole bunch more for fear of taking them. The pressure got to him in that first year dealing with all the criticism from the decision and he was scared shitless, missing everything in the clutch.

Hard games he posted ridiculous statlines throughout, were thrown away in the waning minutes of the game with his erratic, nervous play. That resulted directly in a whole handful of losses. What do the stats matter when youre throwing games away after accumulating them?


Meanwhile, per 82games.com, Rose was the clutchest player in the league in 2011 and was what 4-4 on GWs? He was single handedly winning the Bulls games where there defense was keeping the game 65-65 but the team offense was at a halt.

Chris Paul sets teammates up and goes on an occasional scoring binge.. but he doesnt get the bulls by miami. There was no one for him to pass to.:oldlol:


Interesting statistic.. the sortable clutch stats show how many of your 4th quarter buckets are assisted or not. Here are a few superstars.,

Durant 57%
Dirk 39%
Kobe 27%
Lebron 23%



Rose 11%:roll:


He was literally carrying the team in fourth quarters completely by himself. Thats hard to replace. And CERTAINLY not something 2011 Lebron could do lol.. we have first hand evidence of the opposite.

Easier to replace Lebrons 4 extra rebounds most of which result from miamis gang defensive rebounding which another player could snatch up, or his efficiency which means nothing if hes going to throw the game away in the end anyways.[/QUOTE]

The gamewinning and clutch argument made here is perfectly valid.

[QUOTE=Human Error]1. Lebron
If you think it was unclear who Miami's best player was, you are an idiot.

2. Dwight
The best defensive player in the game who also happened to be the most efficient scorer in the paint.

Rose was given wat too much credit, the real reason that the Bulls overachieved at that season was the team defense designed and installed by a new coach.[/QUOTE]

If you think Wade and LeBron in 2011 wasn't a toss-up, you're an idiot. I'd actually lean towards Wade because of his Finals performance.

Rose was 2011 MVP, it was obvious. LeBron himself said it. Derrick had it wrapped up by like March. All this revisionist history from insecure LeBron stans. Shame on you.

[QUOTE]This. Replace Rose with Brandon Jennings and the Bulls are just as good.[/QUOTE]

I wonder if people read shit like that and are ashamed to have idiots like you on their side.

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]I wonder if people read shit like that and are ashamed to have idiots like you on their side.[/QUOTE]

The answer is yes.

[QUOTE=tpols]lol no one cares where you stopped or what you say. Youre an obvious stat nerd who gets caught up in solely using advanced measures to pass judgement as if basketball was a science experiment

I couldnt give less of a fvck[/QUOTE]

I am analytically inclined but I have played, coached, and officiated at higher levels than most people around here have seen.

And welcome to my ignore list. No shame in it. Its a long list around here.

[IMG]http://oi41.tinypic.com/24evyux.jpg[/IMG]

[QUOTE=tpols]Sure there is.


Before Lebron came to Miami, they were the 6th best defensive team in the league, under spo, and had a defensive rating, of 104.

After they added James they only improved to the 5th best defense in the league and went from 104... to 103.5.

A .5 difference in defensive rating and one spot up in rank. And thats with Bosh coming over too, who was a huge upgrade from their previous big men.
[/QUOTE]

Stopped reading here.

We found a guy that started watching the NBA during the 2011 season.

Jermaine O'Neal was absolutely fantastic for Miami in the 2010 regular season(where your getting the defensive rating from), especially in regards to protecting the rim. To say Chris Bosh was "a huge upgrade" is hilarious. The Heat had 4 guys on the team from the year before (Wade,Chalmers,Haslem(who missed nearly the entire year), and James Jones). Completely different personnel for the centers and forwards(the most important positions when it comes to defense).

Study up little boy, then you can return to the big leagues.

[QUOTE=TonyMontana][IMG]http://oi41.tinypic.com/24evyux.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]

Who cares about the playoffs when discussing this award? ... Dirk got royally owned in the first round of his MVP year, by lesser talent than the Heat, yet still deserved his award.

[QUOTE=TonyMontana]Stopped reading here.

We found a guy that started watching the NBA during the 2011 season.

Jermaine O'Neal was absolutely fantastic for Miami in the 2010 regular season(where your getting the defensive rating from), especially in regards to protecting the rim. To say Chris Bosh was "a huge upgrade" is hilarious. The Heat had 4 guys on the team from the year before (Wade,Chalmers,Haslem(who missed nearly the entire year), and James Jones). Completely different personnel for the centers and forwards(the most important positions when it comes to defense).

Study up little boy, then you can return to the big leagues.[/QUOTE]

tpols getting raped again in another debate :oldlol:

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]The gamewinning and clutch argument made here is perfectly valid.[/QUOTE]

Here is DRose's "Clutch" stats for the 10-11 season:

.402 FG%
.200 3%
47.8 pts (very nice but Kobe, LeBron, Dirk, Westbrook, and KD were all >40 and <50)
10.4 Reb (wow!)
9.8 Ast
[B]6.9 TO[/B]

The counting stats are high but the efficiency is terrible (esp with the TOs).

LeBron's "Horrible" clutch year was

.436/.238/45.1/11.2/4.9 w 3.8TO. He also led the league in FTA/clutch48 and shot 84% on them (which is really good, esp for him).

They are down but in large part because his usage was also way down as Wade was taking a LOT of the clutch shots that first year. And its probably still a comparable line to DRose's.