[QUOTE=Marlo_Stanfield][B]Wilt Chamberlain is the GOAT[/B]. cant believe some people have MJ over him:facepalm :facepalm[/QUOTE]
:biggums:
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[QUOTE=Marlo_Stanfield][B]Wilt Chamberlain is the GOAT[/B]. cant believe some people have MJ over him:facepalm :facepalm[/QUOTE]
:biggums:
[QUOTE=CavaliersFTW][url]http://youtu.be/FJYRtWCutRA[/url]
Example of how I can present a Wilt offense scouting video. Passing, post moves, offensive rebounding, playmaking everything. From every part of his career so there are as few holes in the coverage/presentation of his offensive abilities as possible. My initial estimate is about a 30 minute video if I DON'T use high school and NCAA footage. Will extend any 'clip' (sequences not from the few broadcasts that exist) to as far in front of the play developing as possible, ideally before Wilt sets up and demands the entry pass (though not all clips will show the entire play, some simply begin after the ball is in his hands) That is what you are looking for no? I can try and loosely organize or cluster the clips too to group similar plays.
Will take a while but if you think it's necessary I'll put it on my to do list.[/QUOTE]
[B]That right there was great to watch, looking forward to it.[/B]
[QUOTE=SHAQisGOAT][B]That right there was great to watch, looking forward to it.[/B][/QUOTE]
I just watched it as well, it's quite good. I like the original mix a lot (plenty of action) but this is really useful because it lets us see how the play develops.
Thanks again CavsFTW for everything. :applause:
[QUOTE=dankok8]A lot of animosity in this thread for Fatal9 who is dubbed "a Wilt hater". Truth you may not agree with what the man said but he backed up his opinions with facts and sound logic. I mean are Regul8r, ShaqAttack, PTB Fan etc. all bad posters because they don't think Wilt is the greatest scorer and player? Before you call out others for being biased consider your own personal biases.
As for the OP's video, it's very well done. I've seen most of the footage before since it comes from games that are available but it's well put together. Watching all the available games I've always praised Wilt's coordination, excellent hands, and athleticism. This video definitely sells those points.
I do think Chamberlain lags significantly behind Hakeem and Kareem as far as footwork, fluidity, and variety of moves/counter-moves. Then again it's isn't really a diss. Skills are only the means to an end! Wilt did pretty damn well scoring the ball. The results matter.[/QUOTE]
Hakeem did what he did because he was 6-9 - 6-10, 235-255. Wilt does what he does because he's the 2nd biggest and perhaps the absolute strongest player in NBA history.
A fact Fatal9, and other people who try to jump on Wilt for 'not having Hakeem's ____" ignore entirely and do not wish to acknowledge. Remember, Fatal9 is a guy who thought Wilt had a 24 inch vertical, was Tyson Chandlers height, only 225-275lbs, and with a 7-2 wingspan. He basically thought Wilt was some average joe, physically. Joakim Noah sized who wouldn't impress a single soul in today's scouting world. Therefore his expectations of what Wilt should be doing skill wise are ...urealistic shall we say.
Nobody had Hakeem's footwork or moves, save for Hakeem, who NEEDED them to have the impact he had because he was just your average joe in size as far as centers go, he needed something to set him apart. David Robinson scored 73 points in the modern era not doing any of the shit Hakeem did, do you remember all his 'post moves?' ... are they 'Hakeem-like?'. No, he's 7 foot, 260, bigger longer and can get away with doing more with less. Wilt was bigger yet than Robinson. In Wilt's time the short offensively skilled center was Willis Reed. Willis is much quicker and more fluid and all around much more aesthetically pleasing on film with his shots than say, Wilt was. Does that make Willis a better scorer than Wilt? No. Small centers NEED moves that rely on quickness and deception, big ones like Wilt do not.
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqyEb-MgPAs[/url]
Ask yourself, why would Wilt waste time attempting to duplicate or execute compound moves of 'quickness', deception and incorporate all sorts of moves and counter moves when he's so big and strong all he needs to do is one simple turn in or drop step to get to the rim? If you understand how big and strong Wilt is, what you expect of him to move around like on the offensive end shouldn't be the same as what you demand to see from undersized 6-9 or 6-10 guys. Wasted energy for a guy of Wilt's size and strength to try and duplicate what small, quick centers needed to do. The great ones best know how to use what [I]they've[/I] got to work with, not what others with different tools have needed. If Wilt's footwork or shooting was ever a problem for him he wouldn't have scored 100 points or shattered every scoring record imaginable on the same centers that beautiful fluid looking guys like Kareem or Willis Reed put up less impressive numbers on.
[QUOTE=fpliii]I just watched it as well, it's quite good. I like the original mix a lot (plenty of action) but this is really useful because it lets us see how the play develops.
Thanks again CavsFTW for everything. :applause:[/QUOTE]
[B]YEs, I liked this (test-version) one better.[/B]
[QUOTE=Psileas]Although I understand the "complete picture" motive, I still don't think that a mix which includes missed shots will lead them into making objective comparisons with other greats, since remembering greats bricking shots is unlikely. There are not "FGA" highlights of greats and it's not easy to compare a comprehensive shot compilation to whole games viewed over the years, the bad/"indifferent" moments of which may have been erased from most fans' minds.[/QUOTE]
I agree, totally pointless to show misses, Wilt takes the same shots regardless of whether he misses or makes them. Showing misses is pointless, you're not even going to get an accurate idea of how often he makes/misses, because there aren't that many clips of him missing in the non-game broadcast clips. You want to know how often he missed shooting the basketball look at his damn stats and study as many full game broadcasts as you can. He doesn't attempt stuff he can't make, it's not like we're gonna see him heaving up 30 foot shots if I suddenly show his 'misses'. I'm not wasting my time with it for this potential project that will take long enough as it is. And anybody ever seen or demanded highlights of other players 'misses' to assess them? :biggums:
BRB gonna go tell Balthus23Air to make a 4 hour mix of Jordan missing so I can better see/understand how he played? 4 hours of him making it is too ...erhm, misleading?. Am I doing it right? :lol :facepalm
[QUOTE=CavaliersFTW]I agree, totally pointless to show misses, Wilt takes the same shots regardless of whether he misses or makes them. Showing misses is pointless, you're not even going to get an accurate idea of how often he makes/misses, because there aren't that many clips of him missing in the non-game broadcast clips. You want to know how often he missed shooting the basketball look at his damn stats and study as many full game broadcasts as you can. He doesn't attempt stuff he can't make, it's not like we're gonna see him heaving up 30 foot shots if I suddenly show his 'misses'. I'm not wasting my time with it for this potential project that will take long enough as it is. And anybody ever seen or demanded highlights of other players 'misses' to assess them? :biggums:
BRB gonna go tell Balthus23Air to make a 4 hour mix of Jordan missing so I can better see/understand how he played? 4 hours of him making it is too ...erhm, misleading?. Am I doing it right? :lol :facepalm[/QUOTE]
Ah okay, up to you. Thanks again for your work. :cheers:
[QUOTE=CavaliersFTW]Hakeem did what he did because he was 6-9 - 6-10, 235-255. Wilt does what he does because he's the 2nd biggest and perhaps the absolute strongest player in NBA history.
A fact Fatal9, and other people who try to jump on Wilt for 'not having Hakeem's ____" ignore entirely and do not wish to acknowledge. Remember, Fatal9 is a guy who thought Wilt had a 24 inch vertical, was Tyson Chandlers height, only 225-275lbs, and with a 7-2 wingspan. He basically thought Wilt was some average joe, physically. Joakim Noah sized who wouldn't impress a single soul in today's scouting world. Therefore his expectations of what Wilt should be doing skill wise are ...urealistic shall we say.
Nobody had Hakeem's footwork or moves, save for Hakeem, who NEEDED them to have the impact he had because he was just your average joe in size as far as centers go, he needed something to set him apart. David Robinson scored 73 points in the modern era not doing any of the shit Hakeem did, do you remember all his 'post moves?' ... are they 'Hakeem-like?'. No, he's 7 foot, 260, bigger longer and can get away with doing more with less. Wilt was bigger yet than Robinson. In Wilt's time the short offensively skilled center was Willis Reed. Willis is much quicker and more fluid and all around much more aesthetically pleasing on film with his shots than say, Wilt was. Does that make Willis a better scorer than Wilt? No. Small centers NEED moves that rely on quickness and deception, big ones like Wilt do not.
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqyEb-MgPAs[/url]
Ask yourself, why would Wilt waste time attempting to duplicate or execute compound moves of 'quickness', deception and incorporate all sorts of moves and counter moves when he's so big and strong all he needs to do is one simple turn in or drop step to get to the rim? If you understand how big and strong Wilt is, what you expect of him to move around like on the offensive end shouldn't be the same as what you demand to see from undersized 6-9 or 6-10 guys. Wasted energy for a guy of Wilt's size and strength to try and duplicate what small, quick centers needed to do. The great ones best know how to use what [I]they've[/I] got to work with, not what others with different tools have needed. If Wilt's footwork or shooting was ever a problem for him he wouldn't have scored 100 points or shattered every scoring record imaginable on the same centers that beautiful fluid looking guys like Kareem or Willis Reed put up less impressive numbers on.[/QUOTE]
I totally agree. The end result matters. If a guy puts up 73 points it doesn't really matter how he did it... whether it's flashy or not. He's a helluva scorer!
I like the comparison of young scoring Wilt to Robinson actually. Both have post games that are about equally skilled (or raw depending on how you look at it). Robinson never had a go to move with his back to the basket and when he couldn't blow by his guy he was screwed. Wilt had a bit more range and was even more physically imposing so he could power his way in more often. Definitely an even stronger upper body and could elevate higher than D Rob.
Wilt didn't need to be flashy like Hakeem. His game got the job done in his time and I think Robinson proves that it would get the job done in the modern era as well. Prime Wilt could average 30+/15+ today in his prime. I have little doubt.
Coincidentally I think Wilt's greatest weakness which is lack of killer instinct is also similar to that in Robinson.
[QUOTE=Originally Posted by Marlo_Stanfield]
Wilt Chamberlain is the GOAT. cant believe some people have MJ over him[/quote]
[QUOTE=aj1987]:biggums:[/QUOTE]
There is a case to be made for Wilt as the GOAT. Same with Russell, Kareem and Magic. Most people won't be making it, but anyone in most people's top 5, which Wilt is, has a case.
Barry:
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSTt_TxoFVo[/url]
Kareem:
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTzv-6z7ihk[/url]
what idiots :roll: ... right?. I mean, how dare anyone think Wilt deserves to be the GOAT or in the discussions for it he was a bum I heard who preyed on weak 6-6 white guys. Couldnt' even tie his shoes in the modern era. :lol
[QUOTE=Marchesk]There is a case to be made for Wilt as the GOAT. Same with Russell, Kareem and Magic. Most people won't be making it, but anyone in most people's top 5, which Wilt is, has a case.[/QUOTE]
I'd agree with you on Russell, but the rest? Nope.
Magic? Seriously? A lot of people actually have Bird over Magic. Magic has literally NO case for being the GOAT.
[QUOTE=aj1987]I'd agree with you on Russell, but the rest? Nope.
Magic? Seriously? A lot of people actually have Bird over Magic. Magic has literally NO case for being the GOAT.[/QUOTE]
Yes, a case can be made for Magic. It's quite similar to the case for Russell. Which is who helped their team win the most over their entire career. And if you say that Magic's team was stacked, then well same goes for Bird and Russell.
Kareem absolutely has a case. I don't know how you can say Russell and not Kareem.
As for Wilt, well, he's overall better than Russell taking into account all that Wilt could do. But he didn't have the same situation as Russell. So we can say that Russell was the GOAT winner. Okay, and then the next five are all Celtics too. The same team that had one of the GOAT coaches and nine HOFers. Wilt didn't get drafted by the Celtics. You think Russell would have won with those Warriors teams?
GOAT, doesn't that mean the best player ever. Not who won the most championships because he had more teams with better players. Not necessarily the best player on his own.
I was thinking of grouping his baskets in two ways for sure, left side and right side. Show his passing and scoring moves from both sides. This should kill any 'no left hand' arguments, because the whole point of being ambidextrous is so that (and this mostly applies to a backcourt or forward anyways) players can't force you into being on your weak side, Wilt could score or make plays on both sides of the floor equally, and effectively, he really had no weak side of the floor despite only using his right hand. If I break it up to both sides what are people going to be able to say about using one hand when he's tearing up the other teams defense regardless of which side of the floor he's on you know?
But Wilt also scored right down the middle in transitions, alley-oops, offensive rebounds, pick and rolls, etc and even shot jumpers from the middle - so what should I call this 3rd category to sum up his middle of the lane plays? Just call it "in the middle" or "in the lane" is there a better term for it?
Also... should I include setting screens (where he doesn't necessarily score or pass) and fast break outlet passing (which technically starts from a defensive rebound)?
[QUOTE=CavaliersFTW]I was thinking of grouping his baskets in two ways for sure, left side and right side. Show his passing and scoring moves from both sides. This should kill any 'no left hand' arguments too, because the whole point of being ambidextrous is so that (and this mostly applies to a backcourt or forward anyways) players can't force you into being on your weak side, Wilt could score or make plays on both sides of the floor equally, and effectively, he really had no weak side of the floor despite only using his right hand. If I break it up to both sides what are people going to be able to say about using one hand when he's tearing up the other teams defense regardless of which side of the floor he's on you know?
But Wilt also scored right down the middle in transitions, alley-oops, offensive rebounds, pick and rolls, etc and even shot jumpers from the middle - so what should I call this 3rd category to sum up his middle of the lane plays? Just call it "in the middle" or is there a better term for it?[/QUOTE]
Hm, well I'd break it down to left block, right block, high post, and then whatever else. You actually could do those sections, and maybe put an extra watermark (like the channel logo) in another corner saying which portion it is (maybe list the times when they start in the description, perhaps with a transition between segments)? :confusedshrug:
I guess you could do (just an idea):
• left block
• right block
• high post
• misc. half-court (off. rebounds, alley oops, PnRs)
• transition
BTW is there any good footage of him passing out to shooters (I know he wasn't blessed with many with the Warriors, but maybe there's some good stuff in the Sixers/Lakers footage), or is it mostly finding cutters?
EDIT: Just saw this:
[QUOTE]Also... should I include setting screens (where he doesn't necessarily score or pass) and fast break outlet passing (which technically starts from a defensive rebound)?[/QUOTE]
Screens - Maybe, but I'm not sure where you could include them. The outlet passing would be great if you put it in the transition portion of the video.