Larry Bird vs. Magic Johnson - Complete Career Head-to-Head Stats

dis rite here is chukbe vs lehype at its origins.

add a young gun on da rise to make it bird/magic/mj kobe/lebron/durant

Same arguments wit peak/longevity/teamates/swag/stats/not yet ready/ first or last years don't count/injuries and the occasional would drop 50 each game/20000 hoes/the mountain lion :lol


End of the day nigs in the middle is best tbh. Play 5 positions => versatility, many times not used properly by [B][U]COACH[/U][/B], which all here seem to forget to discuss.

And tbh Cap beats em all. Elite in 3 decades(69 to 89, almost got the 90s), skyhook, stats, peak,defense, mental strength, etc.

Also civilized while not being a media queer, no bastard children/man booty/gambling/rape/decision/f4ggot and any other nigdom afflictions.

If rite now you know how each player plays out and you have a draft wit all of em you go Cap first and that's the definition of the GOAT.

I'm not arguing that Magic > Bird for their careers having a 3-year longer prime and all. Bird after his back injuries in '88 was a shell and Magic was way better from that period onwards. Still the gap is small between them. Like I said all neutral fans from the era would either refuse to rank them or put them side by side on their list.

But from '80 to '86 I still haven't heard any legit argument for Magic > Bird except "Magic could have scored more if he were so inclined...". How do you know Bird couldn't as well? I mean didn't McHale in particular hold him back?

[B]PLEASE LAZERUSS POST SOME SI LINKS THAT PROVE BIRD > MAGIC BEFORE 86-87![/B] I'm willing to take a softer stance in the face of proof but everything I know about the era points in the other direction.

Career 40-point games:

Magic: 6 in RS, 4 in PS
Bird: 42 in RS, 5 in PS

Career 50-point games:

Magic: 0
Bird: 3 (all in RS)

I still can't believe I'm defending Bird against Magic... that's a first but man people are really ripping on Larry here. He was easily a better scorer than Magic and honestly it's laughable to claim otherwise. :lol

And let's debunk this abomination of a myth that Bird was a choker. Larry is the foremost clutch player in the history of the game along with Jordan and West. But I won't really talk about his game-winning shots and huge plays in dying seconds ("That's a steal by Bird!") but we'll look at some larger sample sizes.

[U]Bird in decisive Game 7's and Game 5's:[/U]

[B]27.9 ppg, 9.2 rpg, 6.6 apg on 50.3 %FG/59.5 %TS and ~2.5 topg[/B]

If we exclude his lone game in the '92 playoffs when he was a complete shell we get a staggering [B]29.7 ppg, 9.7 rpg, 6.9 apg on on 49.5 %FG/59.3 %TS[/B].

Larry's teams also went 7-3 in those games.

For comparison Magic averaged [B]20.5 ppg, 7.0 rpg, 14.0 apg on 60.4 %FG/63.2 %TS and 4.5 topg[/B] in his Game 7's.


[U]Now in all elimination games:[/U]

[B]Bird: 23.2 ppg, 10.7 rpg, 6.0 apg on 43.9 %FG/51.6 %TS and ~2.6 topg
Magic: 21.0 ppg, 7.5 rpg, 12.1 apg on 46.7 %FG/56.1 %TS and ~4.9 topg[/B]

Bird's Celtics were 14-9 facing elimination and Magic's Lakers 4-7.

Again no clear edge for Magic. Even his raw numbers were not any more impressive than Bird's in all honesty.

[QUOTE=dankok8]And let's debunk this abomination of a myth that Bird was a choker. Larry is the foremost clutch player in the history of the game along with Jordan and West. But I won't really talk about his game-winning shots and huge plays in dying seconds ("That's a steal by Bird!") but we'll look at some larger sample sizes.

[U]Bird in decisive Game 7's and Game 5's:[/U]

[B]27.9 ppg, 9.2 rpg, 6.6 apg on 50.3 %FG/59.5 %TS and ~2.5 topg[/B]

If we exclude his lone game in the '92 playoffs when he was a complete shell we get a staggering [B]29.7 ppg, 9.7 rpg, 6.9 apg on on 49.5 %FG/59.3 %TS[/B].

Larry's teams also went 7-3 in those games.

For comparison Magic averaged [B]20.5 ppg, 7.0 rpg, 14.0 apg on 60.4 %FG/63.2 %TS and 4.5 topg[/B] in his Game 7's.


[U]Now in all elimination games:[/U]

[B]Bird: 23.2 ppg, 10.7 rpg, 6.0 apg on 43.9 %FG/51.6 %TS and ~2.6 topg
Magic: 21.0 ppg, 7.5 rpg, 12.1 apg on 46.7 %FG/56.1 %TS and ~4.9 topg[/B]

Bird's Celtics were 14-9 facing elimination and Magic's Lakers 4-7.

Again no clear edge for Magic. Even his raw numbers were not any more impressive than Bird's in all honesty.[/QUOTE]

There is not much difference there. I think Bird was clutch for the record.

If Magic featured himself, and wasn't so giving... I doubt this would be close. Its much harder squeezing his points in, because when Magic was hot he still kept giving the ball to Kareem, Worthy, Scott and Cooper. Whereas Bird was the feature. Magic had more control than any player ever and his effect is harder to measure.

Some interesting numbers that I posted in another topic, but they certainly apply here:

[QUOTE]Maybe there is something with my math, but here are the numbers I come up with for their regular seasons:

[B]Bird: 660-237 [COLOR="DarkRed"].736[/COLOR][/B]
[B]Magic: 670-236 [COLOR="DarkRed"].740[/COLOR][/B]

I'll let the smarter guys here either confirm, or reject...
[/QUOTE]

Marchesk:

[QUOTE]Might want to qualify that with regular season. Post season is a different story. [B]Magic sits at[COLOR="DarkRed"] 74%[/COLOR] compared to [COLOR="DarkRed"]Bird's 60.4%[/COLOR][/B].[/QUOTE]

And how about this for the KAJ backers:

[QUOTE]During their 10 regular seasons in the league together, ...

[B]Kareem went 61-40 without Magic, or a [B][COLOR="DarkRed"].604[/COLOR][/B] winning percentage[/B].
[B]Magic went 24-8 without Kareem, or a [COLOR="DarkRed"].750[/COLOR] winning perentage.[/B]

Of course, the Lakers went 1-0 without KAJ in those post-seasons (a title-clinching win BTW), while KAJ went 0-2 without Magic (in a sweeping loss.) And actually you could make the argument that it was 0-3 in that series (since Magic went down with an injury in a tie game.)

So, their TOTAL records, without the other stands at :

[B]KAJ with a 61-43 record ([COLOR="DarkRed"].587[/COLOR])[/B]
[B]Magic with a 25-8 record ([COLOR="DarkRed"].758[/COLOR][/B])

And how about these numbers?

When you combine Magic's 24-8 record without KAJ in those 10 regular seasons, with his three other seasons withOUT Kareem, 62-17, 57-22, and 22-10 (in 95-96 mind you) you get a combined W-L record of 165-57, or a .743 winning percentage. Which, BTW, was better than his overall career winning percentage of .740.

And the reality was, his Lakers would have CLEARLY won a title in '87-88 withOUT Kareem. Kareem was simply putrid in that post-season, was even more awful in the Finals, and was an absolute embarrassment in game seven of those Finals.

Furthermore, I contend that LA was so much better than the rest of the NBA in 86-87, that had they simply replaced Kareem with more minutes for Mychael Thompson and AC Green, that they would STILL have won a title in that season. They just shelled Boston in the Finals, and overall, went 15-3 in the post-season, and outscored their opponents by a +11.4 ppg differential. Kareem was nothing more than a role player in that post-season.

In closing...

Magic took over a STACKED roster in his rookie season, but it was a roster that badly had under-achieved, and had absolutely no leadership (least of all by Kareem, the loner.) He immediately led them to a 60-22 record, and a world title, and deserved his FMVP. He would go on to LEAD the Lakers to a total of NINE Finals, and FIVE rings.

And again, after KAJ retired, they IMPROVED from a 57-25 team, to a 63-19 team. And the next season (Magic's LAST full-time season), he took a injury-riddled, and rapidly declining roster to a 58-24 record, and a trip to the Finals.

How did the Lakers do after Magic retired? They went 43-39, and then 39-43.

Hell, he came back FIVE years later, at age 36, overweight, rusty, and AIDs-ridden, and again led LA to a better record with him, 22-10 (.688), than without him, 31-19 (.620.)

A case could be made that Magic was the greatest "winner" in the history of the NBA.[/QUOTE]

Continued...

And how about Larry's teammates in the post-season?

[QUOTE]Now, how about this (and I am only posting Boston's total eFG% in those post-seasons, instead of taking the time to break down Bird's eFG% and his teammates, but clearly, the difference would have been even more dramatic had I done so)

Playoff eFG%'s...

79-80:
Bird: .480
Boston: .487
League: .476

80-81:
Bird: .474
Boston: .484
League: .473

81-82:
Bird: .430
Boston: .465
League: .476

82-83:
Bird: .427
Boston: .442
League: .484

83-84:
Bird: .532
Boston: .478
League: .487

84-85:
Bird: .469
Boston: .491
League: .497

85-86:
Bird: .551
Boston: .521
League: .497

86-87:
Bird: .491
Boston: .517
League: .495

87-88:
Bird: .467
Boston: .491
League: .488

89-90:
Bird: .470
Boston: .558
League: .490

90-91:
Bird: .418
Boston: .501
League: .492

91-92:
Bird: .500
Boston: .502
League: .492
[/QUOTE]

And just to quiet the Wilt-bashers here:

[QUOTE]Now the next set of numbers are Wilt's playoff eFG%'s, his teammates (collectively and without Wilt), and the post-season league averages.

59-60:
Wilt: .496
Team: .380
League: .402

60-61:
Wilt: .469
Team: .332
League: .403

61-62:
Wilt: .467
Team: .354
League: .411

63-64:
Wilt: .543
Team: .383
League: .420

64-65:
Wilt: .530
Team: .413
League: .429

65-66:
Wilt: .509
Team: .352
League: .440

66-67:
Wilt: .579
Team: .428
League: .424

67-68:
Wilt: .534
Team: .416
League: .446

68-69:
Wilt: .545
Team: .421
League: .431

69-70:
Wilt: .549
Team: .469
League: .455

70-71:
Wilt: .455
Team: .446
League: .445

71-72:
Wilt: .563
Team: .414
League: .439

72-73:
Wilt: .552
Team: .446
League: .451

[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]And let's debunk this abomination of a myth that Bird was a choker. Larry is the foremost clutch player in the history of the game along with Jordan and West. But I won't really talk about his game-winning shots and huge plays in dying seconds ("That's a steal by Bird!") but we'll look at some larger sample sizes.

Bird in decisive Game 7's and Game 5's:

27.9 ppg, 9.2 rpg, 6.6 apg on 50.3 %FG/59.5 %TS and ~2.5 topg

If we exclude his lone game in the '92 playoffs when he was a complete shell we get a staggering 29.7 ppg, 9.7 rpg, 6.9 apg on on 49.5 %FG/59.3 %TS.[/QUOTE]

Hmmm...Wilt in his 11 "at-the-limit" games:

29.9 ppg, 27.3 rpg, 3.9 apg, .581 eFG%, and a .550 TS% (actually, it is probably closer to .560, since I used a TRUE TS%, which is 2pts for every FGA, and 1 pt for every FTA, instead of the goofy .44 crap that TS% actually uses.) Oh, and Chamberlain probably was blocking 8 shots per game, AND, he just crushed his opposing centers in those 11 games, by a staggering margins in EVERY category listed.

And keep in mind that in Bird's 12 playoff seasons, the NBA averaged an eFG% of about .490. In Wilt's 13 post-seasons, the NBA averaged an eFG% of about .435.

So, even with his relatively poor FT shooting, Chamberlain's post-season TS%, compared to the league average, was probably higher than Bird's against league average.

So, NO, Bird was NOT the most clutch playoff performer of all-time.

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]Some interesting numbers that I posted in another topic, but they certainly apply here:

During their 10 regular seasons in the league together, ...

Kareem went 61-40 without Magic, or a .604 winning percentage.
Magic went 24-8 without Kareem, or a .750 winning perentage.

Of course, the Lakers went 1-0 without KAJ in those post-seasons (a title-clinching win BTW), while KAJ went 0-2 without Magic (in a sweeping loss.) And actually you could make the argument that it was 0-3 in that series (since Magic went down with an injury in a tie game.)

And how about these numbers?

When you combine Magic's 24-8 record without KAJ in those 10 regular seasons, with his three other seasons withOUT Kareem, 62-17, 57-22, and 22-10 (in 95-96 mind you) you get a combined W-L record of 165-57, or a .743 winning percentage. Which, BTW, was better than his overall career winning percentage of .740.

And the reality was, his Lakers would have CLEARLY won a title in '87-88 withOUT Kareem. Kareem was simply putrid in that post-season, was even more awful in the Finals, and was an absolute embarrassment in game seven of those Finals.

Furthermore, I contend that LA was so much better than the rest of the NBA in 86-87, that had they simply replaced Kareem with more minutes for Mychael Thompson and AC Green, that they would STILL have won a title in that season. They just shelled Boston in the Finals, and overall, went 15-3 in the post-season, and outscored their opponents by a +11.4 ppg differential. Kareem was nothing more than a role player in that post-season.

In closing...

Magic took over a STACKED roster in his rookie season, but it was a roster that badly had under-achieved, and had absolutely no leadership (least of all by Kareem, the loner.) He immediately led them to a 60-22 record, and a world title, and deserved his FMVP. He would go on to LEAD the Lakers to a total of NINE Finals, and FIVE rings.

And again, after KAJ retired, they IMPROVED from a 57-25 team, to a 63-19 team. And the next season (Magic's LAST full-time season), he took a injury-riddled, and rapidly declining roster to a 58-24 record, and a trip to the Finals.

How did the Lakers do after Magic retired? They went 43-39, and then 39-43.

Hell, he came back FIVE years later, at age 36, overweight, rusty, and AIDs-ridden, and again led LA to a better record with him, 22-10 (.688), than without him, 31-19 (.620.)

A case could be made that Magic was the greatest "winner" in the history of the NBA.

Continued...[/QUOTE]
Wow, good stuff. Curious as to what the naysayers will say.

[QUOTE=Pointguard]Wow, good stuff. Curious as to what the naysayers will say.[/QUOTE]

Probably the same old argument... "well, I watched Bird play, and he was better." Or, "well Bird was injury-riddled in his last three seasons." But, of course, they will ignore the fact that Bird was 23 when he came into the NBA, while Magic was only 20.

Nothing concrete, of course.

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]'81...Bird, even with a horrid Finals [/QUOTE]

Bird's 81 finals were not horrid. His points, rebounds and assists averages are unequaled in the Finals to this day.

Bird was fantastic in the ECF finals against Dr. J's Sixers.

There's one person who can claim to have a better playoffs run in 1981 than Larry Bird. His name is Moses Malone.

[QUOTE=KevinNYC]Bird's 81 finals were not horrid. His points, rebounds and assists averages are unequaled in the Finals to this day.

Bird was fantastic in the ECF finals against Dr. J's Sixers.

There's one person who can claim to have a better playoffs run in 1981 than Larry Bird. His name is Moses Malone.[/QUOTE]

Ok, then let's clear up this RIDICULOUS "Tragic" Johnson series nonsense while we are at it.

His '84 Finals...

18.1 ppg, LED the Lakers in rebounding at 7.7 rpg, handed out 13.6 apg, and shot .560 from the field (Bird was at .484 and KAJ was at .481 BTW.)

"Tragic"...:roll: :roll: :roll:

[QUOTE=Pointguard]There is not much difference there. I think Bird was clutch for the record.

If Magic featured himself, and wasn't so giving... I doubt this would be close. Its much harder squeezing his points in, because when Magic was hot he still kept giving the ball to Kareem, Worthy, Scott and Cooper. Whereas Bird was the feature. Magic had more control than any player ever and his effect is harder to measure.[/QUOTE]

Come on man it's not like Bird was often going all out trying to score either. Heck he was playing the 85-86 season shooting jumpers left-handed and stuff just because he wanted a challenge. Magic could have averaged 22-24 ppg consistently but Bird could have eclipsed 30+ ppg quite easily.

[QUOTE]

During their 10 regular seasons in the league together, ...

Kareem went 61-40 without Magic, or a .604 winning percentage.
Magic went 24-8 without Kareem, or a .750 winning perentage.

Of course, the Lakers went 1-0 without KAJ in those post-seasons (a title-clinching win BTW), while KAJ went 0-2 without Magic (in a sweeping loss.) And actually you could make the argument that it was 0-3 in that series (since Magic went down with an injury in a tie game.)

So, their TOTAL records, without the other stands at :

KAJ with a 61-43 record (.587)
Magic with a 25-8 record (.758)

And how about these numbers?

When you combine Magic's 24-8 record without KAJ in those 10 regular seasons, with his three other seasons withOUT Kareem, 62-17, 57-22, and 22-10 (in 95-96 mind you) you get a combined W-L record of 165-57, or a .743 winning percentage. Which, BTW, was better than his overall career winning percentage of .740.

And the reality was, his Lakers would have CLEARLY won a title in '87-88 withOUT Kareem. Kareem was simply putrid in that post-season, was even more awful in the Finals, and was an absolute embarrassment in game seven of those Finals.

Furthermore, I contend that LA was so much better than the rest of the NBA in 86-87, that had they simply replaced Kareem with more minutes for Mychael Thompson and AC Green, that they would STILL have won a title in that season. They just shelled Boston in the Finals, and overall, went 15-3 in the post-season, and outscored their opponents by a +11.4 ppg differential. Kareem was nothing more than a role player in that post-season.

In closing...

Magic took over a STACKED roster in his rookie season, but it was a roster that badly had under-achieved, and had absolutely no leadership (least of all by Kareem, the loner.) He immediately led them to a 60-22 record, and a world title, and deserved his FMVP. He would go on to LEAD the Lakers to a total of NINE Finals, and FIVE rings.

And again, after KAJ retired, they IMPROVED from a 57-25 team, to a 63-19 team. And the next season (Magic's LAST full-time season), he took a injury-riddled, and rapidly declining roster to a 58-24 record, and a trip to the Finals.

How did the Lakers do after Magic retired? They went 43-39, and then 39-43.

Hell, he came back FIVE years later, at age 36, overweight, rusty, and AIDs-ridden, and again led LA to a better record with him, 22-10 (.688), than without him, 31-19 (.620.)

A case could be made that Magic was the greatest "winner" in the history of the NBA.
[/QUOTE]

How terribly useless is this post. You mean to tell me the Lakers didn't get any worse when a 42 year old Kareem retired? Yea man peak Magic was way better than 40+ year old Kareem. Fascinating... tell me more! :hammerhead:

Again Game 6 in 1980... WAS ONE GAME!! You won't find anyone who knows a god damn thing about the NBA in that season saying rookie Magic was as good as Kareem.


[QUOTE=KevinNYC]Bird's 81 finals were not horrid. His points, rebounds and assists averages are unequaled in the Finals to this day.

Bird was fantastic in the ECF finals against Dr. J's Sixers.

There's one person who can claim to have a better playoffs run in 1981 than Larry Bird. His name is Moses Malone.[/QUOTE]

Finally a voice of reason!

Dude I'm a big-time Magic fan and I have to defend Bird (and Kareem) in this thread. This is how ridiculous this is. He is calling Bird a choker! Larry freaking Bird... And he's trying to discredit Kareem by saying that at 41 and 42 years old in his last 2 seasons he wasn't that good. SMH

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]Ok, then let's clear up this RIDICULOUS "Tragic" Johnson series nonsense while we are at it.

His '84 Finals...

18.1 ppg, LED the Lakers in rebounding at 7.7 rpg, handed out 13.6 apg, and shot .560 from the field (Bird was at .484 and KAJ was at .481 BTW.)

"Tragic"...:roll: :roll: :roll:[/QUOTE]

John Stockton averaged around 18/14 on 50% shooting over 5 years in the postseason while playing very good defense. Was Stockton ever as good as prime Magic?

Stats without context are meaningless.

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]Ok, then let's clear up this RIDICULOUS "Tragic" Johnson series nonsense while we are at it.[/QUOTE]

Fine by me. You'll notice I don't make that argument. In fact, I don't even I don't even offer an opinion in these threads. There's a lot of mythology passing for argument build up 80's basketball, like the Celtics weren't a running team, the Celtics were blue collar, etc, etc.